Weekend Discussion Thread 04/27-30/2012

[robynhood]

...re reading threads ...ok got it now defense is not back until TUESDAY MAY 1 BUt....I thought I read during tweets from Court room that the defense was to produce a witness list if they were to call anyone to the STAND....? ...and In an article I thought ....i read that IF Rafferty was to take the STAND ...he was to do this BEFORE ANY witnesses start....? I have been reading so many articles, tweets and posts here ....I am now confused ....is the defense to AMIT on MONDAY if they are calling RAFFERTY to the stand....so frustrated...please clarify again....???..I find this case just a BIt CONFUSING ...ty again... robynhood...

 

[otto]

both Mothers have my pity...both of their children are lost to them..JMO it is sad all the way around and I would never blame MR's mother...there is that saying "but for the grace of god"...JMO

We have an 18 year old child murderer and a 28 year old child rapist. Something went terribly wrong somewhere during their childhoods for that to happen. Even if they were born with those tendencies, something in their environments contributed to this deadly pair.

With the recent discussion about whether Victoria was drugged ... there was a nasty blue handled knife involved in the abduction. The blade was missing when it was found. I think that this was used during the abduction to keep her quiet, subdue ... force compliance, even while MR was buying drugs for 10 minutes.

 

[otto]

RW is more intelligent but it still took LE over a month to get TLM to talk.

It took her that long to fully understand that she was really caught and there was no way around it. RW only needed about 4 hours.

I think TLM was picked up for a parole violation because her name came up after the "white coat" video was released. When did the video analysis officer identify the car at the school ... were investigators waiting for TLM to confess so they could get the name of the guy with the car?

 

[robynhood]

...found the article and it said Derstine will tell his defense and any witnesses TUESDAY ...in paper from London Press on friday ...gees ..IMO they certainly are given LOTS of time but again! ...IMO>>>>this waiting must be very horrible for Tori's family AGAIN ! ....I listened carefully to Rodney's last video after the crown rested his case...I certainly pray that his wishes are reality ...here in and Ontario remebers Tori in a way that makes it safer for all KIDS IN ONTARIO...amen ..MAY WE NEVER HAVE TO FACE SUCH a SAVAGE ABDUCTION AND MURDER for any other child !...robynhood

 

[otto]

...re reading threads ...ok got it now defense is not back until TUESDAY MAY 1 BUt....I thought I read during tweets from Court room that the defense was to produce a witness list if they were to call anyone to the STAND....? ...and In an article I thought ....i read that IF Rafferty was to take the STAND ...he was to do this BEFORE ANY witnesses start....? I have been reading so many articles, tweets and posts here ....I am now confused ....is the defense to AMIT on MONDAY if they are calling RAFFERTY to the stand....so frustrated...please clarify again....???..I find this case just a BIt CONFUSING ...ty again... robynhood...

Court starts again on Tuesday.
If MR takes the stand, he is the first witness - mandatory.
The defence has already released an expert witness list to the court - mandatory. The defence has also released the names of any alibi witnesses they intend to present - to their advantage.
I think the court has to be prepared for all possibilities on Tuesday morning.

 

[snoofer]

We have an 18 year old child murderer and a 28 year old child rapist. Something went terribly wrong somewhere during their childhoods for that to happen. Even if they were born with those tendencies, something in their environments contributed to this deadly pair.

With the recent discussion about whether Victoria was drugged ... there was a nasty blue handled knife involved in the abduction. The blade was missing when it was found. I think that this was used during the abduction to keep her quiet, subdue ... force compliance, even while MR was buying drugs for 10 minutes.

with the info we have on TLM that is obvious for sure; but have no info on MTR family. You may be correct. I do think that sometimes there is a "one off" that alien kid that just seems to come out of nowhere ie the whole host of serious genetic mental health disorders, organic brain disorders, etc. Do not have psychology background so I am speaking off the cuff but I would assume there are those "one offs" those murderers where there is no obvious family dysfunction reason to explain those tendencies. But alas we do not know anything about this family. But I digress as we all have an opinion and mine isn't based on education on the subject; mostly a movie! :O) MOO

 

[otto]

...found the article and it said Derstine will tell his defense and any witnesses TUESDAY ...in paper from London Press on friday ...gees ..IMO they certainly are given LOTS of time but again! ...IMO>>>>this waiting must be very horrible for Tori's family AGAIN ! ....I listened carefully to Rodney's last video after the crown rested his case...I certainly pray that his wishes are reality ...here in and Ontario remebers Tori in a way that makes it safer for all KIDS IN ONTARIO...amen ..MAY WE NEVER HAVE TO FACE SUCH a SAVAGE ABDUCTION AND MURDER for any other child !...robynhood

I think both the prosecution and the defence will be preparing for their closing arguments this weekend - both parties benefit from the time.

I can't get his video to work. It stops at about 43 seconds every time.

 

[snoofer]

I think both the prosecution and the defence will be preparing for their closing arguments this weekend - both parties benefit from the time.

I can't get his video to work. It stops at about 43 seconds every time.

the movie trailer??

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aN_Gq1aFjUU"]Beautiful Boy - Official Trailer [HD] - YouTube[/ame]
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yzfXy2wAMO0"]Beautiful Boy | trailer (2011) - YouTube[/ame]

maybe one of those u tube ones will work better

 

[otto]

with the info we have on TLM that is obvious for sure; but have no info on MTR family. You may be correct. I do think that sometimes there is a "one off" that alien kid that just seems to come out of nowhere ie the whole host of serious genetic mental health disorders, organic brain disorders, etc. Do not have psychology background so I am speaking off the cuff but I would assume there are those "one offs" those murderers where there is no obvious family dysfunction reason to explain those tendencies. But alas we do not know anything about this family. But I digress as we all have an opinion and mine isn't based on education on the subject; mostly a movie! :O) MOO

If I hear "28 year old man" and "8 year old female with no clothing below waist", and the child is then found murdered, I can figure out what happened ... he's a child rapist.

MR is slimy and morally defective ... not psychologically challenged ... in my opinion. I think he could spot a potential victim a mile away, that he would slide up beside them and ride it for all it's worth. He's a predator of women, TLM and Victoria. Perhaps he simply took advantage of his mother ... because he could ... maybe she tried and failed.

 

[Macright]

It took her that long to fully understand that she was really caught and there was no way around it. RW only needed about 4 hours.

I think TLM was picked up for a parole violation because her name came up after the "white coat" video was released. When did the video analysis officer identify the car at the school ... were investigators waiting for TLM to confess so they could get the name of the guy with the car?

RW fessed up after 4 hours because by that time LE already had a search warrant in place and were in the midst of conducting a search of his home and had boxes of evidence which included pictures...video's etc. etc. so he knew there was no way out..In the case of TLM all LE had to go on was a video which at that time could have been anyone..long after they had her in custody and before she confessed they were still trying to finger others namely TM..somewhere along the way they broke TLM and she confessed...all the other evidence came after..so big difference. JMO

 

[snoofer]

If I hear "28 year old man" and "8 year old female with no clothing below waist", and the child is then found murdered, I can figure out what happened ... he's a child rapist.

MR is slimy and morally defective ... not psychologically challenged ... in my opinion. I think he could spot a potential victim a mile away, that he would slide up beside them and ride it for all it's worth. He's a predator of women, TLM and Victoria. Perhaps he simply took advantage of his mother ... because he could ... maybe she tried and failed.

agrees. MOO

I guess I just believe monsters can be raised but also monsters can be born. MOO But I am not positive of that. MOO And unsure if he was raised a monster or born a monster or a combination. But since limited info on family I want to give the mother benefit of doubt; as she may have tried and failed due to x,y or z. MOO

....and (gulp) defense is up next...stay tuned MOO

 

[daisy.faithfull]

...re reading threads ...ok got it now defense is not back until TUESDAY MAY 1 BUt....I thought I read during tweets from Court room that the defense was to produce a witness list if they were to call anyone to the STAND....? ...and In an article I thought ....i read that IF Rafferty was to take the STAND ...he was to do this BEFORE ANY witnesses start....? I have been reading so many articles, tweets and posts here ....I am now confused ....is the defense to AMIT on MONDAY if they are calling RAFFERTY to the stand....so frustrated...please clarify again....???..I find this case just a BIt CONFUSING ...ty again... robynhood...

Mike Knoll: Interesting tidbit from colleague Chip Martin - he says that if Rafferty is going to be called to testify, it is required that he testify first, before any other defence witnesses. So we will know soon if Rafferty is going to testify.

Is that what you are looking for?

 

[Macright]

If I hear "28 year old man" and "8 year old female with no clothing below waist", and the child is then found murdered, I can figure out what happened ... he's a child rapist.

MR is slimy and morally defective ... not psychologically challenged ... in my opinion. I think he could spot a potential victim a mile away, that he would slide up beside them and ride it for all it's worth. He's a predator of women, TLM and Victoria. Perhaps he simply took advantage of his mother ... because he could ... maybe she tried and failed.

I would never believe that he took advantage of TLM... I could believe he raped TS first and of that I am very doubtful...he may be a lot of things but I don't think he is a child rapist...JMO I do agree with your description of MR as morally defective though... TLM is quite capable of rape herself..it is not unheard of that a female raped another female...it happened a couple of years ago in the US with some church worker whose grandfather was a minister at the same church that she lured the child to and raped and murdered her...so it is not impossible to imagine but I don't think TS was raped...I think that maybe TLM removed her clothing to make it look like a rape...JMO

 

[snoofer]

Is that what you are looking for?

will they announce it in advance or just on tuesday when defense is up they would call him. MOO

 

[otto]

RW fessed up after 4 hours because by that time LE already had a search warrant in place and were in the midst of conducting a search of his home and had boxes of evidence which included pictures...video's etc. etc. so he knew there was no way out..In the case of TLM all LE had to go on was a video which at that time could have been anyone..long after they had her in custody and before she confessed they were still trying to finger others namely TM..somewhere along the way they broke TLM and she confessed...all the other evidence came after..so big difference. JMO

I understand that investigators had difficutly excluding the family because of drug connections, but it's obvious they were pursuing many leads at the time. I'm pretty sure that the name of TLM came up soon after the abduction because of her distinctive walk, white puffy coat and long dark hair.

Once she was nailed for the video, her prepared answers about talking to the child and then leaving didn't stand up. Police would have identified the drivebys by MR in the morning and afternoon and they would have been interested in the name of the friend that she met after supposedly leaving Victoria on the street that day. That was the connection they needed because the header on the car is too distinctive to be some other guy's car.

 

[otto]

agrees. MOO

I guess I just believe monsters can be raised but also monsters can be born. MOO But I am not positive of that. MOO And unsure if he was raised a monster or born a monster or a combination. But since limited info on family I want to give the mother benefit of doubt; as she may have tried and failed due to x,y or z. MOO

Nature versus nurture. Even a monster, raised in the right environment, can grow up and not act on monstrous tendencies.

 

[snoofer]

I understand that investigators had difficutly excluding the family because of drug connections, but it's obvious they were pursuing many leads at the time. I'm pretty sure that the name of TLM came up soon after the abduction because of her distinctive walk, white puffy coat and long dark hair.

Once she was nailed for the video, her prepared answers about talking to the child and then leaving didn't stand up. Police would have identified the drivebys by MR in the morning and afternoon and they would have been interested in the name of the friend that she met after supposedly leaving Victoria on the street that day. That was the connection they needed because the header on the car is too distinctive to be some other guy's car.

TLM's own neighbours recognized her on the tape, and went to her house and asked her if she took Tori and TLM screamed no and locked herself in bathroom. They called LE. MOO

 

[otto]

I would never believe that he took advantage of TLM... I could believe he raped TS first and of that I am very doubtful...he may be a lot of things but I don't think he is a child rapist...JMO I do agree with your description of MR as morally defective though... TLM is quite capable of rape herself..it is not unheard of that a female raped another female...it happened a couple of years ago in the US with some church worker whose grandfather was a minister at the same church that she lured the child to and raped and murdered her...so it is not impossible to imagine but I don't think TS was raped...I think that maybe TLM removed her clothing to make it look like a rape...JMO

So what does "grown man" and "young female child without clothes below waist" say if not child rape?

Is MR the cowering type, being forced by TLM to drive her and an unknown child to a place that only he was familiar with (not her) so she could sexually assault and murder that child? Was he so intimidated, even though the only weapon in the car was his blue knife ... that he called one girlfriend to put money in his account and then withdrew it so his other girlfriend could buy a hammer and garbage bags?

Was Victoria lying on the floor in the back seat listening to them discuss buying a hammer and garbage bags? That's cruel ... TLM seems cruel while MR is really slimy ... and neither has boundaries in terms of what they will do for kicks, even if it means kidnapping, rape and murder.

 

[otto]

TLM's own neighbours recognized her on the tape, and went to her house and asked her if she took Tori and TLM screamed no and locked herself in bathroom. They called LE. MOO

Exactly. Thanks. TLM was quickly recognized after the release of video. She may have pre-planned her answers, but she didn't have one for: what is the name of the friend you met after speaking with Victoria.

The mother was also looked at because of her drug addiction, but it was the media that made the mistake and focused exclusively on the mother ... they had no idea about other suspects until the arrests ... but that's no excuse. Victoria's mother must be a very strong woman to withstand public contempt while looking for a missing child.

It seems to me that the Canadian Press may be following forums - or reading comments posted in response to their court news updates, but I don't think that the courts or defence lawyers are paying employees to read forums .. neither the crown nor the defendant have money for that

 

[otto]

will they announce it in advance or just on tuesday when defense is up they would call him. MOO

No news until after court starts Tuesday ... then decisions will be reported in the news.