weekend discussion thread: 4/14-16/2012

[antiquegirl]

A drug meeting place for exchange of cash for drugs or a party place? But this can't be proven--yet....:moo:

I'd go with a possible party place, but not for drugs. It's too out of the way and unnecessary. A drug deal usually takes less than a minute and can be done almost anywhere. I've seen it happen behind the busy 7-Eleven here in town and under tables (or on top) in public restaurants. There's no need to drive several hundred metres up a deserted country lane. But if there were any parties up there, the Crown has had 3 years to find even one person to testify to that. You would think that anyone from the area who has access to the news would have come forward or been found by the prosecution. And this chapter of the trial is finished. The Crown expects to be completely done in a week and a half.


JMO

 

[Ardy]

(RBBM)

I'm still on the fence about that one. MTR may have passed that lane during his landscaping work, but would have no reason to travel it. The company owner testified yesterday that his employees always worked in teams of at least two. Both MTR and his partner would have had to agree to investigate that lane, and I don't see that happening when they had a job to go to and return from.

Now, it's possible that he took one of his dates up there for a rendezvous, but had it been one of the previous witnesses and they remembered, there is no way for the Crown to have missed asking them that question specifically. I therefore have to conclude that if he had been up that lane before, it was either alone (why?) or with a girl the Crown has yet to find. Had the Crown found evidence that he had actually traveled to that specific crime location in the past, yesterday would have been the day to bring it up. But all they had was that he was "familiar with the (general) area". So, another piece of circumstantial evidence. (Yes, yes, I know.)

JMO

I am not all that convinced that MR knew of the lane, and mostly base my opinion on the fact that if driving down the highway..........that lane would come up pretty quick on someone. It isn't a well marked entrance.

I also wonder if the local young people were asked if it was a popular "bush party" area..........although I doubt the farmer would have allowed that on his land.

You are right though..........the Crown just threw it out there and didn't really pursue it much.

JMO

 

[Hello_Kitty]

Thanks HK....I do believe you are right and JG was the one in the car while MR was on the sidewalk. Did the witness not also say something to the effect that they began texting?

I was just wondering who began texting whom, or if it was ever explained.

IMO

I'm a bit vague on that, but you may be right about the texting, I really would have to go back to the tweet and check and so lazy right now

 

[Ardy]

I'm a bit vague on that, but you may be right about the texting, I really would have to go back to the tweet and check and so lazy right now

And it is getting almost impossible to find anything again......with the volume of pages building up...........

 

[antiquegirl]

from Guelph to Riverston landfill site where the landscaping job was, the laneway area is a 5 min drive out of his way. I agree, he would have had no reason to travel this laneway or this part of the road with a landscaping crew of at least one other person. I am thinking he was on a date with yet another female from POF. At the end of the day on friday there was a tweet about the MF chapter will continue on Tuesday with another 8 people to take the stand. This makes me wonder if any of these 8 are more from POF and if any of them are from the MF area, putting him very close to this laneway once again. JMO

Oh! I haven't read the Tweets yet and may have missed that they're not yet finished with Mt. Forest. I thought they were. Sorry.

I do know one thing from yesterday, though. They originally had 10 witnesses that were scheduled to testify. The Crown told the judge at the beginning that they decided to omit two of those witnesses because their testimony was just redundant. This is why it was such a short day. So, why would they close up shop at 1:00 p.m. yesterday if there were more witnesses from this chapter? (Unless it was a last minute decision and any forthcoming witnesses were not yet available, I guess.)

JMO

 

[Jezbel]

Thanks HK....I do believe you are right and JG was the one in the car while MR was on the sidewalk. Did the witness not also say something to the effect that they began texting?

I was just wondering who began texting whom, or if it was ever explained.

IMO

I think Amanda said she started texting with rafferty. I will have to go back and look at the tweets and or news reports.

Also sorry of this has been answered, haven't made it to the end of the thread yet.

JMO

 

[Hello_Kitty]

Another thought just came to mind regarding MTR being on the phone a lot and the possible drug dealer hat (among others, lol). MTR told at least one of the women that he was a contractor and that is why he was on the phone a lot. If he was just an innocent telephone junkie, then why the lies? Unless he was talking/texting other women constantly. This would have been a question that could have been directed towards the women by the Crown. I wonder if the Crown follows up on our suggestions?--somehow I doubt it. MOO

The best scenario for being so rude being on the phone alot whilst he was dating and telling his dates he was a contractor or dance instructor taking calls/texting would be that he was actually dealing drugs and people were texting him to see if he had any. Someone who would have alot of contacts for drugs would be getting bombarded by calls absolutely all the time IMO.

 

[Hello_Kitty]

I personally don't think the crown is too interested in MR being on the phone during the time he spent with his dates...and I don't think they are interested in any of the lies that he told these women about his type of employment...that info adds nothing to the evidence and would be a waste of taxpayers money and of course court time........I am sure they know that he was a drug user/dealer...the same goes for the number of women that he dated in his lifetime...I think the only reason these women were paraded into court was to show that he had no remorse for TS as he continued on with his love life...:moo:

I agree and to show that for someone who was so horrified by what he saw would continue to live his normal life. He probably got totally scared tho after the cops interviewed him on May 15th, that's when BA said she saw him a couples 2 or three times after and said he looked stressed and haggard and looked like he had a cold sore.

BBM, correction, I don't think she said that after May 15th, disregard that part.

 

[antiquegirl]

Chapter 1: The day of the kidnapping.

Chapter 2: Terri-Lynne McClintic.

Chapter 3: Guelph: video surveillance and bank records detailing the events there.

Chapter 4: the Mount Forest death scene, which the jury will visit.

Chapter 5. Police interaction with Rafferty.

Chapter 6. The searches of Rafferty and McClintic's residences and the evidence found.

Chapter 7. The Honda Civic. What was found inside.

Chapter 8. Rafferty's connection to the Mount Forest area.

Chapter 9. Comments Rafferty made to friends after April 8.

Chapter 10. The May 15 weekend and Rafferty's actions.

Chapter 11. The BlackBerry.

Chapter 12. A recap of the surveillance video

 

[maxfactor]

All these posts about the possible drug debt between MR and JG have me thinking. I'd like to say first that regardless of whether or not that is true it absolutely does not mean that JG or TM were in any way responsible for what happened, they have been through hell and it's not fair or decent to bash them. A couple of questions I wish the Crown had asked, first of all I was surprised that TM was not asked if she knew MR. Very surprised. I think the Crown is trying their best to do this in the easiest way so as not to add more pain to the family. I noticed that Derstine didn't ask her that either and I really expected that he would. Perhaps it's because he knew her answer would be yes and he is trying to go with the TLM drug debt theory. The other thing is, was TLM asked if she was with MR when he drove by the school at 9:05 that morning? I'd like to know if she was, that could show MR was showing her which child he wanted. Or perhaps he was just checking to see if any children walked to school unaccompanied. IMO something is missing.:waitasec::moo:

 

[flipflop]

Oh! I haven't read the Tweets yet and may have missed that they're not yet finished with Mt. Forest. I thought they were. Sorry.

I do know one thing from yesterday, though. They originally had 10 witnesses that were scheduled to testify. The Crown told the judge at the beginning that they decided to omit two of those witnesses because their testimony was just redundant. This is why it was such a short day. So, why would they close up shop at 1:00 p.m. yesterday if there were more witnesses from this chapter? (Unless it was a last minute decision and any forthcoming witnesses were not yet available, I guess.)

JMO

RaffertyLFP: Court is done for day - 8 witnesses Resumes on Tuesday with more Mt. Forest

Im guessing that these 8 may have the MF connection, putting MR in the area.JMO To have a whole chapter set up for this area, they really have not provided too much info....there has to be more than just the landscaping job as a connection to the area IMO

 

[swedie]

MR went on a POF bender after the kidnapping. Maybe this was his version of "ugly coping" a la Casey Anthony.

Quite possible brighidin but I believe this behaviour has been going on for many years. We are just getting a peek at what went on in the year of 2009, as it relates to this case. IMHO something in MR's head went wonky as he couldn't take all the female rejection is his life. From everything I have read about him, it appears these women rejected him, not him rejecting them. Even when he pressured them to respond when they weren't interested, goes to prove he didn't handle rejection well. He seemed needy and wanted confirmation these women liked him and wanted him around. Even TLM was smart enough to reject him after that first date, but it seems he was persistent and forced himself upon her by showing up at her door. Then as she said, she tried to see only the good in MR. She recognize his abuse and put downs but her need for love kept her optimistic and attached. :moo:

MR told a couple, or at least one woman he had a bad childhood, didn't get along with his brothers and so on. I really feel he could not handle all the rejection and took it out on women through rough sex and then finally raping Tori. It would be very interesting to find out what kind of relationship he had with his mother. Doesn't sound too promising as he was shipped away to live with his aunt and uncle. :moo:

 

[Flossie JMO]

Yes, maybe if Mr. Rafferty would have graced us with his version of events, we all might be better informed. JMO

You could be right, and maybe, if his version is the truth. Not sure how that will go, jmo, will be surprised if he testifies, but that's jmo

 

[Sillybilly]

I move forward to the pea coat, which TLM said covered VS for several hours. I expected there would be some DNA residue on a heavy material coat like that one.........and there was, but none of it was identified as VS DNA. Maybe it was there and is now gone. Maybe it was never there because the coat never covered VS. A question left unanswered.

<rsbm>

I'm pretty sure that type of coat has a satin type of lining. Usually when you cover something with a coat, you cover with the lining toward the item. In that case, i would think that not as much DNA would adhere upward to a slippery surface (compared to the woolen exterior), and that a good shake of coat would remove most, if not all, of what might have clung to the inside.

JMO

 

[daisy.faithfull]

I personally don't think the crown is too interested in MR being on the phone during the time he spent with his dates...and I don't think they are interested in any of the lies that he told these women about his type of employment...that info adds nothing to the evidence and would be a waste of taxpayers money and of course court time........I am sure they know that he was a drug user/dealer...the same goes for the number of women that he dated in his lifetime...I think the only reason these women were paraded into court was to show that he had no remorse for TS as he continued on with his love life...:moo:

I think that there was much more to putting all those women up on the stand.

It showed the type of person MTR is, a man who lies easily and often and is very manipulative. I think it's very similar to showing the jury all those hideous letters etc. that demonstrated just how sick TLM is.

It also showed that he was completely at ease talking about Tory's abduction. I wish the women he did speak to about Tory's disappearance would have been asked to describe MTR's demeanor while doing so. Since none of them said that they thought MTR's demeanor was strange when talking about Tory, I'm assuming that he looked and acted like every other normal person talking about a child's abduction. IIRC, he even brought up Tara's drug use, blaming an innocent grief stricken mother who he knew was innocent.

And when it comes to MTR possibly being a drug dealer, I think that is very relavent as well. I also speaks to his character and shows that he is a criminal.

 

[Sillybilly]

So..............I believe that the abduction, and the reason for the abduction are absolutely crucial to supporting either side's assertions.

<rsbm>

With all due respect Ardy, how do you think the reasons for the abduction would be supportive of either side's assertion?

An abduction is an abduction, regardless of the reason. If I were to abduct a minor simply because I was a weirdo who loved kids or wanted a playmate for my pet rabbit, it doesn't matter. It is the established fact that a child was taken without permission from the parent that constitutes the abduction, not the reasons for it.

MOO

 

[Flossie JMO]

I have no problem with people meeting on dating sites, chat rooms or Facebook... nor do I have a problem with cafes, bars or gyms.
For over 25 years I have been in Hotel Management and I met my wonderful husband, some great friends from all over the world and some really bad people as well. The hotel business is transient by nature so people tend to either be on their best behavior or their worse. &#8220;Fawlty Towers&#8221; is my life.
In my experience at least once a year I am exposed to some young girl hooked on something or another and can I tell you the brightest of young men sometimes gets caught up in some sort of drama. Pretty wounded young girl whose life was full of abuse and the young man comes to save the day and BOOM &#8230; right in the middle of an S%^t storm. Now it does go both ways &#8230; but from my experience the girls are more explosive.

Great post. I can relate. I recall another infamous Ontario case where imo the female was the more explosive lead jmo.

 

[Maple1]

Just FYI for everyone. I know there has been discussion and some answers to the "disclosure" obligations from defense council to Crown council.

I found this on line.

The Canadian Bar Association has prepared the following document in PDF form.
Document title:
Frequently Asked Questions about Solicitor-Client Privilege and Confidentiality
Prepared by, Ethics and Professional Responsibility Committee
November 2010

See page 9, question 5
I am acting as defence counsel in criminal proceedings. What are my disclosure obligations to the prosecution?
Also, see question 7 on page 13.

http://www.cba.org/cba/activities/PDF/Privilege FAQ Eng - final.pdf

 

[Flossie JMO]

when Tara testified: She and her boyfriend James Goris bought their OxyContin a few times from a woman named Carol McClintic a couple of months before Tori was killed, McDonald said. They went to her house twice -- one time her 18-year-old daughter Terri-Lynne was leaving the house as McDonald and Goris arrived, and a second time Terri-Lynne McClintic returned home while McDonald and Goris were there, she said.

The McClintics had two shih tzu dogs and McDonald had one, so they were discussing breeding them, court heard. She and her boyfriend were invited further into a bedroom in the dilapidated home and sat on the edge of a futon mattress, the only thing resembling furniture in the room, McDonald said.

"We sat on the edge and we started discussing the dogs and Terri-Lynne came in," McDonald said. "She (had gone) to go and use a payphone. She gave her mom a message then sat down. She was...very, very under the influence and I'm not sure if she had even noticed we were there that day."

Court was shown two items that were found in a bedroom in the McClintic house with McDonald's phone number on it -- one that McDonald said was in her writing, the other was not.

McDonald decided she didn't want to breed her dog with McClintics', and though Carol McClintic was upset, Goris continued to buy OxyContin from her. McDonald didn't go back to the McClintic house after that.

Tori had never met McClintic, but McDonald said she might have discussed the dog breeding at home in front of Tori and her brother Daryn. As of March 17 she will have been clean of both OxyContin and methadone for six months, she added.

http://www.cp24.com/servlet/an/local/CTVNews/20120307/030712_stafford_trial?hub=CP24Home

this is a tweet, if not allowed I apologize and please delete: Derstine asks McClintic about Rafferty's knowledge of the area around Oliver Stephens Public School and Tori Stafford. She says that to her knowledge Rafferty did not know Tara McDonald, James Goris or Tori Stafford and lived on the other end of Woodstock. It was McClintic who often walked in the area.
by Jon Hembrey edited by CBC News 3/23/2012 2:34:55 PM March 23 at 7:34 AM

 

[antiquegirl]

Questions if I may?

My understanding is that several of the women just met him once ... did any of them say exactly why they weren't interested in actually dating him? Did all of them "dump" him or did he dump them?

How many of the women had children under the age of 12?

Did you get a look at his expressions when each one testified? The media reported that he seemed upset during one woman's testimony last Thursday?

Thanks in advance!

(PS Well preserved lol! Like a pickle?)

Cha, I'm going to do this in two separate posts and answer the easiest one first. The way the courtroom is set up, it was difficult for me to see MTR.

Spectators are seated at the centre, very back of the room. There is one bench at the far north end with an aisle in front of it. In front of the aisle are two more rows of benches for spectators. IIRC, there is then a clear wall, south of which are several desks and computer terminals for the media. Ahead of them is another, larger aisle, after which comes the desk of the court clerk and then the judge's raised desk at the very front/south wall. To the left front is the witness stand.

Along the left north wall are rows of shorter benches reserved for the victim's family and more press. South of them are the seats for the jurors.

On the right of the room there are two sets of doors - one at the north and one at the south end. The southern doors are where the jury enters and exits. The northern doors are used by everyone else. Witnesses are brought in just before they testify through these northern doors by a page and escorted out again when they're finished.

Between these two sets of doors on the right are several (4 - 6?) glass or plexiglass cubicles where the defendant sits or stands. MTR was placed in the middle cubicle, IIRC. Outside the cubicle, on each side, stands a guard. (I thought it was kind of funny that these guards were both silver-haired older men. The ones outside the courtroom and downstairs were young, muscular, tough-looking dudes!)

So ... with rows of people in front of me and MTR being off to the middle right, I barely caught a few glimpses of him. The most I saw of him was when he was standing. But each time I looked, he had a neutral, serious expression on his face. I did not see him smile, frown, yawn, or anything like that. Doesn't mean it didn't happen - I just wasn't afforded a good view for any length of time.

HTH