Were there floor jacks in the Ramsey basement?

[BBB167893]

I think you have good people on both sides of the argument who believe different things. Especially before the new DNA findings. I like Thomas, Douglas, Lee, and Smit. And others that I have read of. So many different people have made mistakes and errors of judgement. And we all have read information that is not all factual and we quote from it when we shouldn't.

Isn't that the truth!

I am kind of glad that some of you guys and gal's keep me grounded, even though in my mind you are wrong.

(As John Wayne): You can count on it, pilgrim.

I tend to like Douglas' arguments best concerning the history he has with criminal behavior. But I also understand that his access to evidence was very limited.

That was only one of SEVERAL problems with him!

I am really happy at what they are doing now. And I believe that at minimum they will once and for all clear the Ramsey's. But we will all have to wait and see.

You're a lot more optimistic than some. I've already seen where several IDIs are pushing the panic button.

 

[BBB167893]

I agree with you Dave. I think it could be either way so were at a stalemate on this.

I wouldn't quite say that, but I agree on principle.

 

[Sophie]

I don't think he is perfect either Sophie. He wrote the book on the parents being the most likely subjects to start with. I will say this about Douglas and I really believe this to be true. When you put him in front of a killer or liar, he will know it about 85 to 90% of the time. It could be in this case that he is just too smart. And he is not perfect. But he is and almost always has been the best at what he does. And his students who have even disagreed with him at times in the past will tell you the same.

I know what you mean, Roy, but Ressler is pretty sharp, too...

Just to lighten the mood a smidgen, allegedly (and it is possibly just an anecdote), Margaret Thatcher threatened to take over the investigation for the Ripper following Douglas's statement. Which lit a fire under the police

 

[Sophie]

I may be imagining this, but I thought a couple of FBI types said that Douglas had been seduced by the media and his judgement distorted?

 

[Sophie]

That is why I want all these guys involved. Because I want all to admit once and for all that a Ramsey did it and they were wrong or an intruder did it and they apologize to the Ramsey family.

Again, Roy, I know what you mean but I have such respect for the industry and all-round decency of someone like Thomas. I mean, he was hamstrung by the DA, his own department, the Ramseys (whatever their status, they didn't help the investigation) and a great many Ramsey friends. Given the whole concatenation of circumstances, I don't think that he could have reached a different conclusion or has any real reason to apologise for the conclusions in his book or the complaints in his book. Personally, I wouldn't have done the LKL thing (the Catholic guilt would prevent me from making that accusation without proof positive) but I admire the apple crumble out of him for having the courage of his convictions.

 

[BBB167893]

I may be imagining this, but I thought a couple of FBI types said that Douglas had been seduced by the media and his judgement distorted?

You are NOT imagining it, Sophie! And it was more than a couple. A lot more!

 

[Roy23]

You are NOT imagining it, Sophie! And it was more than a couple. A lot more!

I really truly believe that Douglas integrity means more to him than anything. If he believed the Ramsey's were guilty, he would have said so.

 

[BBB167893]

I really truly believe that Douglas integrity means more to him than anything. If he believed the Ramsey's were guilty, he would have said so.

Very possibly. But I think you misunderstand, Roy. It wasn't his belief they questioned. That's HIS story. They went after him because of how he got there. Specifically, how he ignored all of his own teachings to do it. You said it yourself: "his access to evidence was very limited." Believe me, "very limited" is being polite.

 

[Becky319]

Sorry if this was asked years ago but I wondered did anyone ever think the head injury happened earlier in the day and the brain swelled slowly, don't concussions do that sometimes? Patsy slapping her upside the head with a hairbrush while she was trying to fix her hair before the party crossed my mind.

 

[JMO8778]

Sorry if this was asked years ago but I wondered did anyone ever think the head injury happened earlier in the day and the brain swelled slowly, don't concussions do that sometimes? Patsy slapping her upside the head with a hairbrush while she was trying to fix her hair before the party crossed my mind.

they do,and I'm guessing you might be thinking of what happened to Vanessa Redgrave's daughter recently? (Natalie Richardson).
this type was different though...experts say she would have lived no more than an hour afterwards.it was immediately devastating,causing unconsciousness at once.

ETA: the fact the was garroted so quickly is significant;the R's weren't willing to risk her waking up,IMtherwise,I believe there would have been some denial, and therefore a delay...as in them thinking,'no,she'll be ok,she'll come out of this'...and then she likely WOULD have died from the head injury,and not the garrote..but they faced the facts very quickly,sized them up and made a decision NOT to call 911 and not to hold out for hope...because they couldn't risk her waking up and saying anything about who hurt her..and no doubt the chronic sexual abuse came into play there,too (IMO).

 

[rashomon]

I don't buy that at all.

Please elaborate exactly what you don't buy and why. Be as specific possible so I can address your arguments point per point.

And I don't see how you can say "no question about it".

Do you know which pasage of the interview I was talking about?

That attitude is why this case is where it is.

It was the attitude of a spineless DA afraid of the Ramseys and their lawyers which drove the case down the road to nowhere.
The evidence implicated the Ramseys, however much IDIs close their eyes to this fact.

I think we should all attempt to keep an open mind that even investigators are somewhat not positive about what exactly happened.

I'll borrow from SuperDave Dave here who said: It is good to keep an open mind, but not to a point where the brain falls out.

There is evidence pointing in both directions.

In both directions, you say. Okay, which evidence implicates the Ramseys in your opinion?

I really hope they figure all this out.

They BPD has figured it out long ago.

 

[Ames]

Sorry if this was asked years ago but I wondered did anyone ever think the head injury happened earlier in the day and the brain swelled slowly, don't concussions do that sometimes? Patsy slapping her upside the head with a hairbrush while she was trying to fix her hair before the party crossed my mind.

Nah, my mom and my sister used to slap me upside the head with the hairbrush, when I was little...if I wouldn't sit still. And they hit HARD....but, imo...a slap with a hairbrush wouldn't have been enough to cause the type of injury that JB had, and cause displacement of her skull. That had to have been made with either a shove into the side of the tub, sink, or toilet...or have been done with a flashlight.

 

[DeeDee249]

Patsy was no dummy, she was a college graduare with a degree in journalism. She was perfectly capable of writing that note.

The flashlight would not have had blood on it no matter whose it was. For one, her head bash did not break the skin, so the bleeding was internal. Also, the flashligh had been completely wiped down, inside and out, including batteries- and it is this that tells me it WAS the Ramsey's flashlight. An intruder would not have left it there, and an intruder wouldn't need to wipe the batteries.

The coroner could tell if her hands were ever suspended. Several ways. First, the livor patterns. Second, there would be a groove around her wrists similar to the one around her neck. There wasn't. FW was right behind JR that day. He'd have seen if she was suspended and if her father cut her down. JR himself described seeing the white blanket on the floor and "knowing it was her". That nition of her being suspended is one of those persistent untruths about this case, along with the pubic hair on the blanket (it was NOT a pubic hair, but found to be an forearm hair belonging to PR).

 

[Tadpole12]

Hi Ames.

I'm so sorry that your Mom and sister were 'handy' like that.
Thankfully the blows weren't hard enough to split your scalp.

Different though, that corporal punishment stlye, to what would happen if a parent 'smashed' an object on top of a childs head, the height differential, the down force can easily split the scalp.

 

[Ames]

Patsy was no dummy, she was a college graduare with a degree in journalism. She was perfectly capable of writing that note.

The flashlight would not have had blood on it no matter whose it was. For one, her head bash did not break the skin, so the bleeding was internal. Also, the flashligh had been completely wiped down, inside and out, including batteries- and it is this that tells me it WAS the Ramsey's flashlight. An intruder would not have left it there, and an intruder wouldn't need to wipe the batteries.

The coroner could tell if her hands were ever suspended. Several ways. First, the livor patterns. Second, there would be a groove around her wrists similar to the one around her neck. There wasn't. FW was right behind JR that day. He'd have seen if she was suspended and if her father cut her down. JR himself described seeing the white blanket on the floor and "knowing it was her". That nition of her being suspended is one of those persistent untruths about this case, along with the pubic hair on the blanket (it was NOT a pubic hair, but found to be an forearm hair belonging to PR).

Exactly! An intruder would have taken the darn thing with him, before taking the time to wipe it down, AND the batteries. An intruder would have obviously not brought his own with him, if he had to use the Ramsey's....so taking it wouldn't have not only been alot easier and faster...it would have also been necessary for him to get around in the dark with. The fact that it had been left out, and completely wiped down...inside and out...is a huge, HUGE red flag.

 

[Ames]

Hi Ames.

I'm so sorry that your Mom and sister were 'handy' like that.
Thankfully the blows weren't hard enough to split your scalp.

Different though, that corporal punishment stlye, to what would happen if a parent 'smashed' an object on top of a childs head, the height differential, the down force can easily split the scalp.

LOL...thanks. Actually my sister did it more than my mom. I remember my mom doing it once...but, my sister was M-E-A-N! Yes, thankfully they didn't do it hard enough to split my scalp.

 

[JMO8778]

Exactly! An intruder would have taken the darn thing with him, before taking the time to wipe it down, AND the batteries. An intruder would have obviously not brought his own with him, if he had to use the Ramsey's....so taking it wouldn't have not only been alot easier and faster...it would have also been necessary for him to get around in the dark with. The fact that it had been left out, and completely wiped down...inside and out...is a huge, HUGE red flag.

one of Smit's theories was that an intruder hit JB with the flashlight,causing the head injury,and then left via the basement window..but OOPS..he failed to mention the flashlight was found on the counter so...NO intruder,esp.after JB had screamed...would bother to take it back upstairs,then go back downstairs,and exit via the basement window.
Just like the grate that was never disturbed,IDI's leave things out,then hope that no one will notice.(like who would other to put the grate BACK into place,after sliding it to get out??? it wasn't found out of place.just like replacing the cap on the pen and putting it back in the cup,that was one darn tidy 'intruder'.)

 

[Ames]

one of Smit's theories was that an intruder hit JB with the flashlight,causing the head injury,and then left via the basement window..but OOPS..he failed to mention the flashlight was found on the counter so...NO intruder,esp.after JB had screamed...would bother to take it back upstairs,then go back downstairs,and exit via the basement window.
Just like the grate that was never disturbed,IDI's leave things out,then hope that no one will notice.(like who would other to put the grate BACK into place,after sliding it to get out??? it wasn't found out of place.just like replacing the cap on the pen and putting it back in the cup,that was one darn tidy 'intruder'.)

Exactly! And JAR even said that the house was like a maze. And then we have the messy basement...according to Patsy. There was furniture and all sorts of stuff down there piled up. So, without a flashlight...and without the lights on...no intruder in the world...would have been able to find their way back down to that basement, through all of that mess down there...and out the window. No stinkin' way. Not to mention...what in the world did he use to see with once he got outside? I know from experience that in mountainous regions...it is PITCH black at night...you can't even see your hand in front of your face.

 

[JMO8778]

yes and on top of all that...we are expected to believe an intruder redressed JB,after wiping her down..covered her w a blanket..latched the WC and strategically placed a chair in front of the train room...comon' now!! ::rolling eyes::

 

[Ames]

yes and on top of all that...we are expected to believe an intruder redressed JB,after wiping her down..covered her w a blanket..latched the WC and strategically placed a chair in front of the train room...comon' now!! ::rolling eyes::

I know...the IDI theory is just plain ridiculous.