Do you mean unsuspected by you, or unsuspected by *anyone*?
What Do the Bodies Tell Us?
- Thread starter Compassionate Reader
- Start date
New Posts
-
Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #188
- Latest: photographer4
Do you mean unsuspected by you, or unsuspected by *anyone*?
Compassionate Reader
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Oct 27, 2010
- Messages
- 2,357
- Reaction score
- 113
Of course, I believe that they died clothed and that the clothing was removed at the time of transport or shortly before transport. They would have had to have been unclothed for the predation to occur. So, maybe, when the killer came back to clothe one of the boys to match his mother's MPD description and couldn't do so and he then undressed the others so the one (who would implicate him) wouldn't stand out, he left the bodies in the manhole/drain pipe while he searched for a way to transport the bodies. When he couldn't find a suitable rope, he improvised with the shoelaces. That could have been when the animal predation occurred, why it was relatively limited and why MM's body did not suffer from predation. Just a thought.
^ Well, sure, if you're dedicated to the TH/Manhole theory. 
My problem with 'they died clothed' (even though it's me suggesting it; arguing with self ftw) is this: The bindings are said to suggest two of the boys were bound while alive. So how'd the killer get their clothes off.
I don't know what else could cause the wrap-around blanching I'm looking at, however. I also don't know which child it is, as te picture's unlabelled. I', sure I can work it out though. Will get back to this.
My problem with 'they died clothed' (even though it's me suggesting it; arguing with self ftw) is this: The bindings are said to suggest two of the boys were bound while alive. So how'd the killer get their clothes off.
I don't know what else could cause the wrap-around blanching I'm looking at, however. I also don't know which child it is, as te picture's unlabelled. I', sure I can work it out though. Will get back to this.
carillion
New Member
- Joined
- Jul 7, 2014
- Messages
- 19
- Reaction score
- 0
http://what-when-how.com/forensic-sciences/postmortem-interval/ here is some info you might find useful as far as rigor and lividity goes. It breaks things down pretty understandably. Hope it helps!
Compassionate Reader
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Oct 27, 2010
- Messages
- 2,357
- Reaction score
- 113
Sorry, I meant to respond to this earlier. I meant suspected by LE.
^ Well, sure, if you're dedicated to the TH/Manhole theory.
My problem with 'they died clothed' (even though it's me suggesting it; arguing with self ftw) is this: The bindings are said to suggest two of the boys were bound while alive. So how'd the killer get their clothes off.
I don't know what else could cause the wrap-around blanching I'm looking at, however. I also don't know which child it is, as te picture's unlabelled. I', sure I can work it out though. Will get back to this.
Yes -- there was also no blood on the clothes at all. It would be as impossible to beat those boys and have no blood show up on their clothes as it would be to commit the murders at the discovery site and not have any more than just miniscule amounts of blood found.
Justiceseeker35
Active Member
- Joined
- Nov 29, 2012
- Messages
- 497
- Reaction score
- 82
There was blood around the site just luminol testing was in the early stages of its technology and wasn't admissible in court.
I don't think it was thoroughly tested with it though and I don't believe the man holes were tested for blood either. I think the police were very tunnel visioned about where this took place.
As far as the clothes go, what if the kids were beaten unconscious, stripped and tied up. The clothes got washed in the water. We are talking head wounds skull fractures to be precise. They bleed true but a lot of the damage is internal with brain swelling and pressure, internal bleeding, they won't bleed as much as gun shots and knife wounds. The most damaging wound was CB's to the back of the skull which I believe happened in the water as he was trying to awaken to save himself. That blood would have washed off.
I don't know where people get the idea that head wounds don't bleed a LOT. They really do!
In some blunt force trauma injuries, says the research, the bleeding can be mainly internal.
But large lacerations to the head can and do bleed a hell of a lot, says the large laceration to my head many years ago which bled a literal bucket over about two hours, until I could get it seen to properly. I mean, this was a LOT of blood. I could not believe it.
And looking at the horrific lacerations in the crime scene pictures here, no way did those head injuries, with multiple wide open and deep lacerations, not bleed like the dickens. No way.
In some blunt force trauma injuries, says the research, the bleeding can be mainly internal.
But large lacerations to the head can and do bleed a hell of a lot, says the large laceration to my head many years ago which bled a literal bucket over about two hours, until I could get it seen to properly. I mean, this was a LOT of blood. I could not believe it.
And looking at the horrific lacerations in the crime scene pictures here, no way did those head injuries, with multiple wide open and deep lacerations, not bleed like the dickens. No way.
Compassionate Reader
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Oct 27, 2010
- Messages
- 2,357
- Reaction score
- 113
I meant unsuspected by LE, of course!:blushing:
Agreed -- not to mention, it's in the police reports that the head injuries bled once the victims were recovered from the water -- so I really don't understand that whole angle either. It's like trying to make the evidence fit one's theory (trying to fit a round peg in a square hole), instead of simply looking at the evidence and letting it speak for itself.
Compassionate Reader
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Oct 27, 2010
- Messages
- 2,357
- Reaction score
- 113
I can see that point, and IMO it's further evidence that the discovery ditch was just that - and that the murders happened elsewhere.
Miranda!
New Member
- Joined
- Sep 7, 2011
- Messages
- 192
- Reaction score
- 6
Wow. What a fascinating thread. I know I have not been as rigourous as I would like to be of late, in keeping up with all case related stuff. So apologies for arriving late! I will try to dig out links when I am feeling stronger, but for the moment I'll just make a few points!
At the very start wvn the wmpd were thinking they had found a dump site only. They also mentioned possible animal predation, including turtles, but then dissmissed the idea!
The luminol testing done did reveal a few patches that COULD be blood but no subsequent testing was done to confirm if it actually WAS BLOOD.
The checking of Veterans in the area was a direct result of FBI advice sought. The FBI were very firm in attempting to turn the wmpd away from the idea of a 'satanic' event. But the wmpd did make an effort to follow up on Vets in the area and they also took some of the ideas of questions for the door to door hunt for information.
8 year old boys do not have 'waists' in the way girls/women do. I cannot see any reason that jeans or trousers could NOT be taken off without unzipping and ending up inside out!
A skateboard was found. I seem to remember that it was thought not to be Chris' BUT that it was perfectly possible that another child, out skate-boarding, might have done a 'trade'. This child would most likely have been perfectly willing to swap back WITH Chris but unwilling and scared to come forward after the murders!
The description by a friend of Ryan's about Chris being punished and beaten originated in Mara Leveritt's book. It is also very likely that it has been discussed many a time on many forums over the years. What was very disquieting, considering it all these years later, is that Ms Leveritt made great efforts to dig up JMB's past history and yet little to none checking up on that of Terry Hobbs. As I have said before though, after the convictions most supporters felt the onus of the burdon of proof was on the convicted and their supporters, and that the only way was to create enough of an outrage that a killer had been left free. For that, a more believable scenario had to be presented that another specific person or persons were responsible. In so many ways we are still faced with the very same hurdle, however we now have much more evidence, circumstantial and hard, to draw on as well as the combined experience of the very many possible avenues explored.
Basular fractures of the skull can, and frequently do, cause a frothy accumulation of body fluids in the trachea and even the lungs. It could be argued that a person could 'drown' from this. Around 10% of 'drowning' cases are known as 'dry drowning' when the laryngeal spasm does not relax and no water enters the lungs, but neither does any air.
Binding each wrist to the ankle on the same side. This is a fact.
Using shoe laces to do it is also a fact.
As to purpose, we can only speculate and then decide for our selves which scenario makes the most sense...
Restraint or to discourage attempting to escape if consciousness regained?
Humiliation?
To facilitate the moving of the bodies, in his opinion, from 'A' to ditch?
Perp got bored and decided to practice knots to pass the time?
Can wounds 'bleed' after death and after rigor mortis has come and gone? Does death stop the blood clotting? I can understand wounds 'oozing', but bleeding, or was it just the water on the surface trickling away? Just like when washing a blood stain out of a piece of fabric?
There was something else, so memorable that I did not write it down!
At the very start wvn the wmpd were thinking they had found a dump site only. They also mentioned possible animal predation, including turtles, but then dissmissed the idea!
The luminol testing done did reveal a few patches that COULD be blood but no subsequent testing was done to confirm if it actually WAS BLOOD.
The checking of Veterans in the area was a direct result of FBI advice sought. The FBI were very firm in attempting to turn the wmpd away from the idea of a 'satanic' event. But the wmpd did make an effort to follow up on Vets in the area and they also took some of the ideas of questions for the door to door hunt for information.
8 year old boys do not have 'waists' in the way girls/women do. I cannot see any reason that jeans or trousers could NOT be taken off without unzipping and ending up inside out!
A skateboard was found. I seem to remember that it was thought not to be Chris' BUT that it was perfectly possible that another child, out skate-boarding, might have done a 'trade'. This child would most likely have been perfectly willing to swap back WITH Chris but unwilling and scared to come forward after the murders!
The description by a friend of Ryan's about Chris being punished and beaten originated in Mara Leveritt's book. It is also very likely that it has been discussed many a time on many forums over the years. What was very disquieting, considering it all these years later, is that Ms Leveritt made great efforts to dig up JMB's past history and yet little to none checking up on that of Terry Hobbs. As I have said before though, after the convictions most supporters felt the onus of the burdon of proof was on the convicted and their supporters, and that the only way was to create enough of an outrage that a killer had been left free. For that, a more believable scenario had to be presented that another specific person or persons were responsible. In so many ways we are still faced with the very same hurdle, however we now have much more evidence, circumstantial and hard, to draw on as well as the combined experience of the very many possible avenues explored.
Basular fractures of the skull can, and frequently do, cause a frothy accumulation of body fluids in the trachea and even the lungs. It could be argued that a person could 'drown' from this. Around 10% of 'drowning' cases are known as 'dry drowning' when the laryngeal spasm does not relax and no water enters the lungs, but neither does any air.
Binding each wrist to the ankle on the same side. This is a fact.
Using shoe laces to do it is also a fact.
As to purpose, we can only speculate and then decide for our selves which scenario makes the most sense...
Restraint or to discourage attempting to escape if consciousness regained?
Humiliation?
To facilitate the moving of the bodies, in his opinion, from 'A' to ditch?
Perp got bored and decided to practice knots to pass the time?
Can wounds 'bleed' after death and after rigor mortis has come and gone? Does death stop the blood clotting? I can understand wounds 'oozing', but bleeding, or was it just the water on the surface trickling away? Just like when washing a blood stain out of a piece of fabric?
There was something else, so memorable that I did not write it down!
Justiceseeker35
Active Member
- Joined
- Nov 29, 2012
- Messages
- 497
- Reaction score
- 82
But CB in the autopsy report was bound different- all 4 knots the same style, bound hands and feet behind him instead of wright to ankle. He was on his stomach all the limbs behind him tied together. This is per the ME report. I have yet to see if he was truly bound different as in a discovery site picture. Can anyone see a crime scene photo of him. If he was tied and bound different then the other boys it could be important. It may imply he was forced to tie the other boys MM and SB (as was brought up in another post) so that may explain why the knots might be different knots and the hog ties are different. Or he was tied a lot later or earlier and treated differently.
Nice post -- respectfully trimmed for the sake of not taking up too much space on the page. This is a good point about the boys' waists. IIRC, at least one pair (still buttoned) was inside out, which would be indicative of it being pulled from the waist in a downward motion; and at least one (still buttoned) was not inside-out, indicating it was pulled from the ankles.
To answer your question about the wounds, I read that blood was flowing from the victims' facial wounds -- both immediately as they were recovered from the stream, and while they were placed on the ditch banks. I will try to find the link, but I can't promise it unfortunately.
The knots are different but the style is the same. They were all tied wrist to ankle.
Miranda!
New Member
- Joined
- Sep 7, 2011
- Messages
- 192
- Reaction score
- 6
I think we must be reading both the autopsy and coroner's reports very differently. I was unable to glean any hint of one of the boys having their hands tied behind their backs AND then their ankles tied together, as is the 'normal' way to secure a prisoner, with an addition of a tied connection between the two (pair of wrists and pair of ankles).
Another point arising from reading these reports yet again, the matter of the temperature of the water! 'Approx 60°' is likely to mean temperature lies between 55° and 64.9°. ie 55°<temp<65°. Further hard evidence that no temperature was ACTUALLY taken - they are covering themselves by giving the approximation considered likely, in my view.
Justiceseeker35
Active Member
- Joined
- Nov 29, 2012
- Messages
- 497
- Reaction score
- 82
No in the CB autopsy report in description of injuries section the ME states "The hands were bound to the ankles behind the back in a "hog-tied" fashion." meaning to me traditional hog tie. I'd have to see a picture of it to confirm it was a different tying method than the other two kids but it does seem different written that way.
SB autopsy report states "The right hand bound to the right ankle with a black shoe lace, the left hand was bound to the left ankle with a white shoe lace. " nothing about behind the back.
Miranda!
New Member
- Joined
- Sep 7, 2011
- Messages
- 192
- Reaction score
- 6
Another point! The knots. A variable that does not seem to have been taken in to account when 'comparing' the way the knots are tied is the ralationship of the position of the two hands doing the tying and the parts being tied. It would be likely that were the parts to be tied on a production line then the knots would more likely to be done in the same way each time. I know this sounds 'cold' but could not think of another way of conveying what I meant.
Seen pic. Okay - here's the difference. Sit in a chair, lean forward and put your hands down by your ankles. That's "in front"
Lie on your tun and try to put ankles and wrists together. That's "behind".
When I think "hog tied" it's something very different to what I am seeing in this case.
In another case I looked at, we learned a lot about the bindings from where the knot was - people almost always will make a knot at the 'top' of what they're doing. So that can help figure out the position a victim was most likely in when they died, I think. Haven't thought to apply that to this case..
Justiceseeker35
Active Member
- Joined
- Nov 29, 2012
- Messages
- 497
- Reaction score
- 82
could they be tied in this way because TH liked to play the dead roach game to punish SB? is that a possibility as to why they were tied so weird? In a sick twisted way I could see him having lined the kids up in a row and laughing to himself about it.