What evidence does the prosecution have?

DNA Solves
DNA Solves
DNA Solves

New Posts

Status
Not open for further replies.
Concerned Papa said:
IMHO, a successful prosecution will need very little else.
Click to expand...

I disagree. I think the prosecution needs to prove that GZ did not shoot TM in an act of self-defense. And I'm not sure they have the evidence to prove this point.

JMO, OMO, and :moo:
 
I'd like to add this to the record. At 1:34:30 Here: http://www.wral.com/news/video/11004815/#/vid11004815
is where the confronted portion comes up again. I think the following is important.

DE LA RIONDA: Why did you use the word “confronted” sir?

GILBREATH: Because Zimmerman met with Martin and it was compiling the facts that we had along with the witness statements of the argumentative voices and the authoritative voice being given from one of the witnesses and then the struggle that ensued that came from several witnesses.
------------------
The above part is in the transcript provided and readily available. What follows, this part in maroon below
-1:35:17 is where they cut away, so no transcript of this portion was provided.
I transcribed the following myself:

DE LA RIONDA: Isn’t it true, sir, that at least one witness described a person chasing another person in the back of that area where that murder occurred?

GILBREATH: Yes.

O’MARA: A couple of questions...The continued to follow that Mr. Zimmerman continued to follow
what evidence do you have to support that?

GILBREATH: He was told not to follow him, he continued on for a period of time.

O’MARA: How long?

GILBREATH: I don't know … I would say less than a minute before he hung up, which is prior to the encounter between the two,

O’MARA: Okay. Any other evidence besides that there was a phone call that he was on for a minute? Any other evidence, any other witnesses?

GILBREATH: To?

O’MARA: To the fact that he quote continued to follow.

GILBREATH: We have a witness statement who observed, that was on the perimeter of this, who observed shadows or figures, excuse me, running by her residence.

This is where it is picked up again by the formal transcript:

O’MARA: Do you know which way or who they were, or anything?

GILBREATH: They...I cannot identify who they were, but it was at the same time frame this occurred.

O’MARA: Ok. Besides that - any other evidence to support your conclusion that Mr. Zimmerman continued to follow?

GILBREATH: Other than his call and that witness?

O’MARA: Yes.

GILBREATH: And the fact that where it ended up. No.

O’MARA: Well you do have some other evidence don’t you? We had Zimmerman’s statement, don’t you?

GILBREATH: We have Mr. Zimmerman’s statements, we have the shell casings and we had Mr. Martin’s body at the scene.

==================

http://emptysuit.wordpress.com/2012/04/21/george-zimmerman-bond-hearing-transcript/

http://www.wral.com/news/video/11004815/#/vid11004815
 
who said:
I'd like to add this to the record. At 1:34:30 Here: http://www.wral.com/news/video/11004815/#/vid11004815
is where the confronted portion comes up again. I think the following is important.

DE LA RIONDA: Why did you use the word “confronted” sir?

GILBREATH: Because Zimmerman met with Martin and it was compiling the facts that we had along with the witness statements of the argumentative voices and the authoritative voice being given from one of the witnesses and then the struggle that ensued that came from several witnesses.
------------------
The above part is in the transcript provided and readily available. What follows, this part in maroon below
-1:35:17 is where they cut away, so no transcript of this portion was provided.
I transcribed the following myself:

DE LA RIONDA: Isn’t it true, sir, that at least one witness described a person chasing another person in the back of that area where that murder occurred?

GILBREATH: Yes.

O’MARA: A couple of questions...The continued to follow that Mr. Zimmerman continued to follow
what evidence do you have to support that?

GILBREATH: He was told not to follow him, he continued on for a period of time.

O’MARA: How long?

GILBREATH: I don't know … I would say less than a minute before he hung up, which is prior to the encounter between the two,

O’MARA: Okay. Any other evidence besides that there was a phone call that he was on for a minute? Any other evidence, any other witnesses?

GILBREATH: To?

O’MARA: To the fact that he quote continued to follow.

GILBREATH: We have a witness statement who observed, that was on the perimeter of this, who observed shadows or figures, excuse me, running by her residence.

This is where it is picked up again by the formal transcript:

O’MARA: Do you know which way or who they were, or anything?

GILBREATH: They...I cannot identify who they were, but it was at the same time frame this occurred.

O’MARA: Ok. Besides that - any other evidence to support your conclusion that Mr. Zimmerman continued to follow?

GILBREATH: Other than his call and that witness?

O’MARA: Yes.

GILBREATH: And the fact that where it ended up. No.

O’MARA: Well you do have some other evidence don’t you? We had Zimmerman’s statement, don’t you?

GILBREATH: We have Mr. Zimmerman’s statements, we have the shell casings and we had Mr. Martin’s body at the scene.

==================

http://emptysuit.wordpress.com/2012/04/21/george-zimmerman-bond-hearing-transcript/

http://www.wral.com/news/video/11004815/#/vid11004815
Click to expand...

IMO, this witness statement can also be used to support GZ's story that he was heading back to his truck (perhaps even jogging because it was raining) and TM suddenly attacked him from behind.

Unless it can be clearly identified who was "running" after who, then we end up where we've always been with way too much room for reasonable doubt.

IMO, that's what has bothered me the most about this whole case: it's riddled with reasonable doubt. GZ's story matches up so well with almost all the evidence presented. The only evidence we have yet to see that could change that is 1) the gun forensics and 2) the autopsy report. (And I have a sneaking suspicion that we'll find ourselves right back where we started from.)

JMO, OMO, and :moo:
 
who said:
Did you happen to notice the two links I gave were exactly that video?

:)

That's what I used to transcribe what had not been transcribed.
Click to expand...

I do apologize, I thought you were just copy/pasting a transcript to show a point. I did not even notice the links, perhaps I subconsciously ignored them as a signature.
 
gxm said:
I disagree. I think the prosecution needs to prove that GZ did not shoot TM in an act of self-defense. And I'm not sure they have the evidence to prove this point.

JMO, OMO, and :moo:
Click to expand...

When his story is that he was walking back to his car and was attacked by Trayvon "where the sidewalks meet", I'm not so sure the prosecution will need to do much more than show the jury a dead body with his bullet in it 150-175 feet away in the OPPOSITE direction.

Liars tend to not get very much benefit of the doubt from a jury.

Every supporter of Zimmerman seems to want to ignore what more than one attorney has come to this forum and told us. If he's going to claim he was "standing his ground", he's the one that's got to prove the self defense aspect. That's hard to do when the body is found over half a football field away from where you were supposedly "standing".

Read the various accounts that have come out as to George's path of movement and actions for that night.

  • Read what he told LE in the "leaked" article at the Orlando Sentinel as VERIFIED by the City Manager of Sanford.
  • Read or listen to RZ Sr's detailed account for his son's movements that night in his Sean H. interview.
  • Read what his brother said in his Piers Morgan interview.
  • Read what HIS OWN ATTORNEY said in his re direct of Investigator Gilbreath at the Bond Hearing.
Each one of those stories say some version of:

George was walking down the main sidewalk....following Trayvon until the dispatcher told him "we don't need you to do that"......continued to the next street over for an address/street sign.....was walking back to his vehicle when attacked by Trayvon

Not a one of these stories ever have George Zimmerman doing anything except walking on that sidewalk. Not a one of them has ever said he set foot elsewhere.

Now read where HIS OWN ATTORNEY said the body was located during the Bond Hearing. Look at where that point actually is in relation to "where the sidewalks meet".

The problem for George Zimmerman is, he can't drag that boy's dead body down to the sidewalk where he says he was at.
 
gxm said:
IMO, this witness statement can also be used to support GZ's story that he was heading back to his truck (perhaps even jogging because it was raining) and TM suddenly attacked him from behind.

Unless it can be clearly identified who was "running" after who, then we end up where we've always been with way too much room for reasonable doubt.

IMO, that's what has bothered me the most about this whole case: it's riddled with reasonable doubt. GZ's story matches up so well with almost all the evidence presented. The only evidence we have yet to see that could change that is 1) the gun forensics and 2) the autopsy report. (And I have a sneaking suspicion that we'll find ourselves right back where we started from.)

JMO, OMO, and :moo:
Click to expand...
I think it's easy to have reasonable doubt when you have only seen 1/10th of the evidence the state has collected.
 
Concerned Papa said:
When his story is that he was walking back to his car and was attacked by Trayvon "where the sidewalks meet", I'm not so sure the prosecution will need to do much more than show the jury a dead body with his bullet in it 150-175 feet away in the OPPOSITE direction.

Liars tend to not get very much benefit of the doubt from a jury.

Every supporter of Zimmerman seems to want to ignore what more than one attorney has come to this forum and told us. If he's going to claim he was "standing his ground", he's the one that's got to prove the self defense aspect. That's hard to do when the body is found over half a football field away from where you were supposedly "standing".

Read the various accounts that have come out as to George's path of movement and actions for that night.

  • Read what he told LE in the "leaked" article at the Orlando Sentinel as VERIFIED by the City Manager of Sanford.
  • Read or listen to RZ Sr's detailed account for his son's movements that night in his Sean H. interview.
  • Read what his brother said in his Piers Morgan interview.
  • Read what HIS OWN ATTORNEY said in his re direct of Investigator Gilbreath at the Bond Hearing.
Each one of those stories say some version of:

George was walking down the main sidewalk....following Trayvon until the dispatcher told him "we don't need you to do that"......continued to the next street over for an address/street sign.....was walking back to his vehicle when attacked by Trayvon

Not a one of these stories ever have George Zimmerman doing anything except walking on that sidewalk. Not a one of them has ever said he set foot elsewhere.

Now read where HIS OWN ATTORNEY said the body was located during the Bond Hearing. Look at where that point actually is in relation to "where the sidewalks meet".

The problem for George Zimmerman is, he can't drag that boy's dead body down to the sidewalk where he says he was at.
Click to expand...

It was dark, it was rainy, and IMO GZ could have thought he was near the spot the sidewalks intersected. Just as TM could have thought he was running toward home instead of in the opposite direction. Given that this is a condo community, and all the buildings look similar, add to that the terrible visibility, and IMO it's not a point I would call someone a "liar" on.

Now, if GZ said that he was nowhere near the shooting and/or he never called 911 and/or his gun had just been stolen, then I would call him a liar. IMO, the lies some people see can easily be chalked up to simple confusion on a dark, rainy night after a traumatic confrontation that involved a head injury. I realize that you're very interested in the logistics of this case, but IMO I don't find them as sinister as you do.

FTR, if I had shot my attacker, it would not have been where the attack began as I was being flung around like a rag doll. I don't think that's what happened here (the flinging part), but IMO a violent confrontation (especially one that involves wrestling over a gun) is not a static, freeze-frame event. It's a jumble of motion, reaction, and counter-reaction.

JMO, OMO, and :moo:
 
who said:
I think it's easy to have reasonable doubt when you have only seen 1/10th of the evidence the state has collected.
Click to expand...

I agree. But what makes you think we only have 1/10th of the evidence? IMO, the most pertinent evidence will be the gun forensics and the autopsy. If that evidence fits GZ's story, then I think the State's in a lot of trouble.

JMO, OMO, and :moo:
 
They could have moved after the confrontation began but I do not believe that GZ didn't know his way around the complex even in the dark. He's lived there since 2009 and there are three streets or so.

Also, if he truly was returning from where he checked for an address he'd know exactly where he was coming from and which route he was taking.
 
Donjeta said:
They could have moved after the confrontation began but I do not believe that GZ didn't know his way around the complex even in the dark. He's lived there since 2009 and there are three streets or so.

Also, if he truly was returning from where he checked for an address he'd know exactly where he was coming from and which route he was taking.
Click to expand...

I don't agree. I easily get confused in the dark, especially in areas where the buildings all look the same. IMO, it depends on the individual's innate sense of direction. Mine's not the best.

JMO, OMO, and :moo:
 
GZ lived in the area since 2005. He patrolled the neighborhood. He sure did know exactly where he was that evening.

JMO
 
gxm said:
It was dark, it was rainy, and IMO GZ could have thought he was near the spot the sidewalks intersected. Just as TM could have thought he was running toward home instead of in the opposite direction. Given that this is a condo community, and all the buildings look similar, add to that the terrible visibility, and IMO it's not a point I would call someone a "liar" on.

Now, if GZ said that he was nowhere near the shooting and/or he never called 911 and/or his gun had just been stolen, then I would call him a liar. IMO, the lies some people see can easily be chalked up to simple confusion on a dark, rainy night after a traumatic confrontation that involved a head injury. I realize that you're very interested in the logistics of this case, but IMO I don't find them as sinister as you do.

FTR, if I had shot my attacker, it would not have been where the attack began as I was being flung around like a rag doll. I don't think that's what happened here (the flinging part), but IMO a violent confrontation (especially one that involves wrestling over a gun) is not a static, freeze-frame event. It's a jumble of motion, reaction, and counter-reaction.

JMO, OMO, and :moo:
Click to expand...

"simple confusion on a dark, rainy night".........:waitasec:
 
Concerned Papa said:
"simple confusion on a dark, rainy night".........:waitasec:
Click to expand...

Yep. And after having his head banged up (head trauma). As I've mentioned before, my ex-DIL got out of a hit-and-run offense by having a doctor write a letter that having a concussion can make one not think clearly. She got off. As in, free as bird after hitting a parked car so hard that she and her friend had to jump up and down on the bumper to break it free from the car she hit before she could drive off.
 
AngelWings444 said:
GZ lived in the area since 2005. He patrolled the neighborhood. He sure did know exactly where he was that evening.

JMO
Click to expand...

I've been driving the same route to work for about 10 years and I still have trouble recognizing similar exits (and I've driven the beltway all my adult life). Even after almost two years in our new home, I still have to catch myself from turning onto the street before ours (the turn looks similar). People like me exist and IMO if someone like me is on the jury, they will relate to any logistical confusion GZ may have had.

As a matter of fact, I had to call 911 to report a bicyclist hit by a car and I had to drive to where I could check the street sign on the corner of the grocery store that I've been going to for almost 10 years. I had no idea what the cross street was named (and couldn't even tell you now without looking it up). ETA: "The corner that (store's name) is on" didn't cut it with the dispatcher. By the time I'd returned to the corner to get the street name, someone else had already called it in.

JMO, OMO, and :moo:
 
gxm said:
I've been driving the same route to work for about 10 years and I still have trouble recognizing similar exits (and I've driven the beltway all my adult life). Even after almost two years in our new home, I still have to catch myself from turning onto the street before ours (the turn looks similar). People like me exist and IMO if someone like me is on the jury, they will relate to any logistical confusion GZ may have had.

As a matter of fact, I had to call 911 to report a bicyclist hit by a car and I had to drive to where I could check the street sign on the corner of the grocery store that I've been going to for almost 10 years. I had no idea what the cross street was named (and couldn't even tell you now without looking it up).

JMO, OMO, and :moo:
Click to expand...

Agreed. I got my house from my parents when they passed on so I've lived here quite some time and I can't tell you the names of the streets one block East or West. Some people are good with streets and addresses, others aren't.
 
gxm said:
I don't agree. I easily get confused in the dark, especially in areas where the buildings all look the same. IMO, it depends on the individual's innate sense of direction. Mine's not the best.

JMO, OMO, and :moo:
Click to expand...

If CPapa's drawings are anywhere near correct there is imo no way to confuse the place where the sidewalks meet with the spot between the buildings where the body was imo.

Even if the buildings all look similar it is not completely dark, there are lighted windows and it should be fairly evident that at the star he was between the two parallel rows of buildings and at the place where the sidewalks meet there are also buildings perpendicularly to the longer corridor between the two rows of buildings.

See the pictures in
[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7878219#post7878219"]Timeline - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community[/ame]

If GZ walked from where the two red cars are parked (which I assume to be the place where he got the address from) to the direction of his own vehicle it's hard for him to get so lost so that he'd be at the star and think that he was where the sidewalks meet.

Even the people with lousy memory for street names and a bad sense of direction generally know the difference between walking straight along the same path and making a right angle turn, and the difference between being on a path between buildings and at a crossing of two paths.

He seems to have no trouble giving the dispatcher directions to his vehicle so based on that evidence I am not inclined to think that he has a bad sense of direction.
 
AJ Noiter said:
Agreed. I got my house from my parents when they passed on so I've lived here quite some time and I can't tell you the names of the streets one block East or West. Some people are good with streets and addresses, others aren't.
Click to expand...

There were only three streets in the whole community. Long Oak Way, Twin Trees and Retreat View Circle. Even I can remember that. lol
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

DNASolves

Who is Escambia County John Doe (1989)?

Members online

... and 269 more.
Total: 2,176 (members: 270, guests: 1,906)

Online statistics

Members online
270
Guests online
1,906
Total visitors
2,176
Totals may include hidden visitors.

Forum statistics

Threads
599,615
Messages
18,097,482
Members
230,890
Latest member
1070
Back
Top