What Is the Defense Strategy?

[katydid23]

2011.03.22 Defense Motion Clarifying Motion for Leave For Additional Witnesses
http://www.docstoc.com/docs/7480096...ing-Motion-for-Leave-For-Additional-Witnesses


The Defense is asking to add Sharon Cadieux and Patricia Young -- both women were involved in the George shoving incident and filed battery charges Sept 7, 2008.

http://i.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2008/images/09/08/9-7.battery.report.pdf

And then .... we have the angry George shoving his own father through a glass window/door at their auto dealership in Ohio ....

And .... now we have the Defense scrambling to add "state of mind" experts to their witness list ....

BINGO. What possible reason for the jury to hear about George shoving people around other than him being shoved under the moving bus?

 

[strach304]

What exactly is the general consensus here as to what exactly the defense has in mind for GA? Accusations that he abused Casey for the penalty phase? George is the one responsible for Caylee's death? In either instance Casey was deathly afraid of her father?

 

[logicalgirl]

BINGO. What possible reason for the jury to hear about George shoving people around other than him being shoved under the moving bus?

But where's the bus? Are you meaning in the guilt phase because I don't think George can be admitted as a possible SODDI in the penalty phase....

 

[katydid23]

What exactly is the general consensus here as to what exactly the defense has in mind for GA? Accusations that he abused Casey for the penalty phase? George is the one responsible for Caylee's death? In either instance Casey was deathly afraid of her father?

I think it is one of two possible theories.

1. Casey was a victim of her fathers sexual abuse. Because of that [ and perhaps her mom's emotional abuse] she was exhibiting signs of PTSD.
So when she tried to take care of her child she failed and the baby died by accident. Caesey was so afraid of telling her parents she hid it from the world and covered it up as a kidnapping.

2. Wilder version---same as the first but in this fairy tale her dad abused the baby too and then kidnapped her. Casey was too traumatozed to deal with it so she blocked it out completely. Then her Dad framed her by putting the body in the trunk and burying the child where Casey buried her dead pets.
I mean, what person would actually bury their child there, without knowing it would point back to them. The ONLY person who would have put the child there and in the trunk was someone trying to frame her, not casey herself.

 

[katydid23]

But where's the bus? Are you meaning in the guilt phase because I don't think George can be admitted as a possible SODDI in the penalty phase....

I think the bus is coming for him in the basic trial. Casey did what she did, lied and partied, because she had PTSD because of Dad's abuse. And it was an accident but the PTSD made it impossible to deal with rationally.

ETA; are the above witnesses, about the shoving incident in the penalty phase or the guilt phase? I thought they were being added to the guilt phase.

 

[logicalgirl]

Maybe George can be talked in to accepting some kind of blame for Caylee's death, but can you just imagine Jeff Ashton or LDB walking him through each action at the trial?

George will be a complete mess - he will end up yelling and screaming and blaming JB for testimony - George has never taken responsibility for anything - I don't think he is emotionally stable enough to pull this off even if he wanted to. I just do ..not...see it happening, even though logically it kinda makes sense the DT will go in this direction.

 

[ThinkTank]

Sorry to play through the George Discussion
Okay so I have been looking at MM's () motions he kindly added to day.
The Defense has asked to add two witnesses to testify as to ICA's psychological "state of mind" - and they are Dr. Weitz and Dr. Danzigar.
Neither of these good Doctors have supplied a report as of the date of these motions.
Soooo, the Defense clearly states Dr. Weitz will testify in the penalty phase, but I'm not clear when Dr. Danzigar will testify - does anyone know for sure?
As far as being concerned about Dr. Weitz in the penalty phase - my response is <Yawn> cause I can't find a case showing the jury puts any weight to the "soft" stuff during the mitigation phase. There must be one but I haven't found it yet. The jury "acknowledges it" but does not give it "weight". If Dr. Danzigar is also testifying in the penalty phase - I will sleep much better tonight than I did last night after reading Paintr's contribution re PTSD..... that did give me the "worries".

Dr. Danziger was added to the Defense PENALTY PHASE Witness List on Dec. 30, 2010.

The Motions just filed by Finnell on March 21st, adds Dr. Wm Weitz to the PENALTY PHASE Witness List also.

But ... the Motion filed by the Defense on March 22nd, to add (6) witnesses, including Danziger and Weitz, is on the GUILT PHASE Witness List!!!! And Finnell told the Judge on Thursday that she wants to move Danziger to the GUILT Phase witness list, as a "state of mind" expert!!!

In my mind, that means they are going to say KC is NOT GUILTY of killing Caylee ... that George did in a fit of rage and that KC's state of mind made her cover for her father. AZLawyer has presented the theory that this "state of mind" stuff they are just now bringing up is to prove KC's INNOCENCE (not to spare her from the death penalty).

https://docs.google.com/document/edit?id=1eypXuLsh5uatd0yhKQPIBl3_qCYIw5K-bc0q2jEVkHo&hl=en
STATE WITNESS LIST

https://docs.google.com/document/edit?id=1SJuT6ZnZa_DMbH7rK5QXMFWMCG9xV7KVoIjLLRZfg_E&hl=en
DEFENSE WITNESS LIST

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1t1IKoWtQFXbILJ9pVMwT-c0dXhXOtFw-u5N2jfvVJM0/edit?hl=en
DEFENSE PENALTY PHASE WITNESS LIST

 

[strach304]

I don't think Caylee was actually buried but I sure don't buy George putting her there. He was a cop and imo would have had a better plan. I can just see it now...Casey trying to blame her own father. The jury is gonna love that.

 

[MissJames]

It will be interesting to see if George gets his own attorney .

 

[logicalgirl]

It will be interesting to see if George gets his own attorney .

Does he not have one already? After Conway, didn't CA and GA both get separate lawyers at the same firm? I don't think they are criminal defense lawyers though.:waitasec:

 

[strach304]

Dr. Danziger was added to the Defense PENALTY PHASE Witness List on Dec. 30, 2010.

The Motions just filed by Finnell on March 21st, adds Dr. Wm Weitz to the PENALTY PHASE Witness List also.

But ... the Motion filed by the Defense on March 22nd, to add (6) witnesses, including Danziger and Weitz, is on the GUILT PHASE Witness List!!!! And Finnell told the Judge on Thursday that she wants to move Danziger to the GUILT Phase witness list, as a "state of mind" expert!!!

In my mind, that means they are going to say KC is NOT GUILTY of killing Caylee ... that George did in a fit of rage and that KC's state of mind made her cover for her father. AZLawyer has presented the theory that this "state of mind" stuff they are just now bringing up is to prove KC's INNOCENCE (not to spare her from the death penalty).

https://docs.google.com/document/edit?id=1eypXuLsh5uatd0yhKQPIBl3_qCYIw5K-bc0q2jEVkHo&hl=en
STATE WITNESS LIST

https://docs.google.com/document/edit?id=1SJuT6ZnZa_DMbH7rK5QXMFWMCG9xV7KVoIjLLRZfg_E&hl=en
DEFENSE WITNESS LIST

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1t1IKoWtQFXbILJ9pVMwT-c0dXhXOtFw-u5N2jfvVJM0/edit?hl=en
DEFENSE PENALTY PHASE WITNESS LIST

Something like the abused spouse syndrome defense? What was that woman's name that killed her husband who was a minister? Mary...? The defense would have to have a really good explanation for Casey covering for her father.

ETA: This isn't the SA's first rodeo and I can see them discrediting this angle right away.

 

[logicalgirl]

Dr. Danziger was added to the Defense PENALTY PHASE Witness List on Dec. 30, 2010.

The Motions just filed by Finnell on March 21st, adds Dr. Wm Weitz to the PENALTY PHASE Witness List also.

But ... the Motion filed by the Defense on March 22nd, to add (6) witnesses, including Danziger and Weitz, is on the GUILT PHASE Witness List!!!! And Finnell told the Judge on Thursday that she wants to move Danziger to the GUILT Phase witness list, as a "state of mind" expert!!!

In my mind, that means they are going to say KC is NOT GUILTY of killing Caylee ... that George did in a fit of rage and that KC's state of mind made her cover for her father. AZLawyer has presented the theory that this "state of mind" stuff they are just now bringing up is to prove KC's INNOCENCE (not to spare her from the death penalty).

https://docs.google.com/document/edit?id=1eypXuLsh5uatd0yhKQPIBl3_qCYIw5K-bc0q2jEVkHo&hl=en
STATE WITNESS LIST

https://docs.google.com/document/edit?id=1SJuT6ZnZa_DMbH7rK5QXMFWMCG9xV7KVoIjLLRZfg_E&hl=en
DEFENSE WITNESS LIST

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1t1IKoWtQFXbILJ9pVMwT-c0dXhXOtFw-u5N2jfvVJM0/edit?hl=en
DEFENSE PENALTY PHASE WITNESS LIST

ThinkTank, thank you! As usual - you are the one with the info immediately at your finger tips. I don't know what we would do without you!

I did see that neither Doctor has yet to produce a report. And Finnell seemed to be unclear when/if they would. Are we seeing the State "hold" their objections while everyone hangs around waiting or do we think they will say - hold on a minute HHJP - lets have an end date here to receive them" before this motion is granted?

 

[katydid23]

Maybe George can be talked in to accepting some kind of blame for Caylee's death, but can you just imagine Jeff Ashton or LDB walking him through each action at the trial?

George will be a complete mess - he will end up yelling and screaming and blaming JB for testimony - George has never taken responsibility for anything - I don't think he is emotionally stable enough to pull this off even if he wanted to. I just do ..not...see it happening, even though logically it kinda makes sense the DT will go in this direction.

I DON"T THINK THEY ARE GOING TO TELL HIM. I bet they will blindside him during the trial. Why tell him anything?

 

[strach304]

I don't think Caylee was actually buried but I sure don't buy George putting her there. He was a cop and imo would have had a better plan. I can just see it now...Casey trying to blame her own father. The jury is gonna love that.

Bumping myself after re-reading what I just wrote. Of course blaming George is just dandy with Casey she killed her own daughter.

 

[logicalgirl]

Something like the abused spouse syndrome defense? What was that woman's name that killed her husband who was a minister? Mary...? The defense would have to have a really good explanation for Casey covering for her father.

ETA: This isn't the SA's first rodeo and I can see them discrediting this angle right away.

I love this saying! When I see JA and LDB at the beginning of a hearing - it's like they are saying "Giddyup Jose!" "Let's see how long you can stay on that horse today!" :great:

 

[ExpectingUnicorns]

Dr. Danziger was added to the Defense PENALTY PHASE Witness List on Dec. 30, 2010.

The Motions just filed by Finnell on March 21st, adds Dr. Wm Weitz to the PENALTY PHASE Witness List also.

But ... the Motion filed by the Defense on March 22nd, to add (6) witnesses, including Danziger and Weitz, is on the GUILT PHASE Witness List!!!! And Finnell told the Judge on Thursday that she wants to move Danziger to the GUILT Phase witness list, as a "state of mind" expert!!!

In my mind, that means they are going to say KC is NOT GUILTY of killing Caylee ... that George did in a fit of rage and that KC's state of mind made her cover for her father. AZLawyer has presented the theory that this "state of mind" stuff they are just now bringing up is to prove KC's INNOCENCE (not to spare her from the death penalty).

https://docs.google.com/document/edit?id=1eypXuLsh5uatd0yhKQPIBl3_qCYIw5K-bc0q2jEVkHo&hl=en
STATE WITNESS LIST

https://docs.google.com/document/edit?id=1SJuT6ZnZa_DMbH7rK5QXMFWMCG9xV7KVoIjLLRZfg_E&hl=en
DEFENSE WITNESS LIST

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1t1IKoWtQFXbILJ9pVMwT-c0dXhXOtFw-u5N2jfvVJM0/edit?hl=en
DEFENSE PENALTY PHASE WITNESS LIST

Dr Kahn was involved with this same defense before. It didn't fly then:

http://scholar.google.com/scholar_case?case=16205167336976486465&hl=en&as_sdt=2&as_vis=1&oi=scholarr

but they might try using it, not as diminished capacity for her having murdered Caylee (as was used in this case) but that Caylee died accidentally or by someone else's hand and the PTSD is responsible only for her inappropriate actions.

 

[strach304]

I'm curious to know why the prosecutor was added after the state said they didn't plan on using MD. What exactly is it that he can refute? Was she trying to get a deal for info about Casey? That's the only explanation I can come up with. He couldn't know about what transpired between the two in jail.

 

[ThinkTank]

Quotes from AZlawyer on her opinions of possible Defense strategy:

Originally Posted by AZlawyer
"If, as the defense team said, it is NOT about a mental health defense (i.e., not saying that Casey was not responsible for her actions) and also NOT about diminished capacity (i.e., not saying that Casey is intellectually impaired), then my guess is that it will be about how and why her state of mind caused her to act guilty if she was really not guilty. From the dancing to the IMs to the statements to LE...the whole enchilada."

"Hmmm I posted a defense theory a week or so back [March 21, 2011] that would require a state of mind witness, and would NOT be a mental health defense and would also NOT be a diminished capacity issue..." [the Defense filed Motions to add "state of mind" witnesses on March 22, 2011]

"I suppose I would go for the theory that Caylee died in a terrible accident, not caused by any culpable negligence on Casey's part, following which Casey engaged in an idiotic cover-up attempt out of mortal terror of her mother, during which she was able to present a "happy face" to the world by suppressing her emotions deep into her subconscious, a symptom of her mental illness caused by the emotional and sexual abuse by her parents and brother. The "Bella Vita" tattoo was to help her remember the beautiful life of her baby, because the emotional suppression caused by her mental illness scared even her. Caylee was the only thing in Casey's life that ever broke through the mental illness and brought out normal emotions in her, so after Caylee was gone Casey's illness got even worse, explaining her horrifically ice-cold statements to police."

"The theory I posted would not be a defense. It is a theory that Casey did NOT kill Caylee but acted...umm...non-innocent after NOT killing Caylee because she is a little strange in the brain."

"No, I think they will describe her state of mind in order to explain to the jury her extremely odd (i.e., happy) attitude after...whatever happened to Caylee that was not Casey's fault. Allegedly."

"Yep. I think somehow the defense just recently realized that they didn't have to just use "ugly coping" in a vacuum but instead could say that someone was "ugly coping" BECAUSE of some mental issue. Not a disease or even a disorder, necessarily, but some ability to dissociate oneself from reality in a terrible, stressful situation."

"In my version of the "ugly coping" theory, Casey had been mentally ill for a lengthy period of time due to sexual and emotional abuse by her family, and was, because of that, able to dissociate herself from reality and seem "happy" when really horrible things happened to her (like her daughter dying in a terrible accident). So her behavior before and after wouldn't have been any different, really."

"This state of mind thing IMO will likely be about how and why Casey's lack of mental health led her to act happy when she was really terrified/devastated.
ETA: Not that I think she was REALLY terrified/devastated. That's just what I think the defense is going to argue."

"I think they are going to use this state of mind expert to try to support a theory of innocence. Not that she killed Caylee and lied about it because of her state of mind, but that SOMETHING ELSE TERRIBLE happened to Caylee which was NOT Casey's fault, and Casey was able to suppress any emotional reaction to it because of her state of mind."

"Yes, that's why everyone was so shocked when they mentioned the new expert on Casey's "state of mind" today in court." [March 24, 2011]

"Oh, I agree, there are problems with any defense theory. This one I just think is the best of any out there. I would give it a 15% chance of winning."

 

[katydid23]

Dr. Danziger was added to the Defense PENALTY PHASE Witness List on Dec. 30, 2010.

The Motions just filed by Finnell on March 21st, adds Dr. Wm Weitz to the PENALTY PHASE Witness List also.

But ... the Motion filed by the Defense on March 22nd, to add (6) witnesses, including Danziger and Weitz, is on the GUILT PHASE Witness List!!!! And Finnell told the Judge on Thursday that she wants to move Danziger to the GUILT Phase witness list, as a "state of mind" expert!!!

In my mind, that means they are going to say KC is NOT GUILTY of killing Caylee ... that George did in a fit of rage and that KC's state of mind made her cover for her father. AZLawyer has presented the theory that this "state of mind" stuff they are just now bringing up is to prove KC's INNOCENCE (not to spare her from the death penalty).

https://docs.google.com/document/edit?id=1eypXuLsh5uatd0yhKQPIBl3_qCYIw5K-bc0q2jEVkHo&hl=en
STATE WITNESS LIST

https://docs.google.com/document/edit?id=1SJuT6ZnZa_DMbH7rK5QXMFWMCG9xV7KVoIjLLRZfg_E&hl=en
DEFENSE WITNESS LIST

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1t1IKoWtQFXbILJ9pVMwT-c0dXhXOtFw-u5N2jfvVJM0/edit?hl=en
DEFENSE PENALTY PHASE WITNESS LIST

OMG. I have been saying this in a few earlier threads and here is why.

Back in the beginning of this case I was a regular on another board. There was a dedicated group discussing this case. All of the regulars knew Casey was guilty. BUT ONE ADAMANT POSTER VISITED REGULARLY TRYING TO DEFEND HER.
WE used to argue with him a lot and he sounded like an attorney but kept claiming he was retired LE. [ no one believed that though.]
We all accused him of being on Baez's payroll because of his pov and his intense arguments.
First he tried everything he could to convince us that Zanny did exist. It was impossible but he tried all kinds of scenarios. [ Casey was too embarrassed to admit she had no contact info, and used to meet at the park, so she made up SawGrass story. Zenaida went home to Mexico and so nobody can find her...bla bla bla.]
It became obvious that nobody was going to buy that theory.

BUT THEN HE BEGAN BATTING AROUND PATSY"S LIKE GEORGE OR LEE.
And every time we would point to evidence against Casey like the car trunk, the burial site, he was able to make a possible case against George. And it always seemed to me that this was an investigator with Baez trying to float different defense scenarios. And the ONLY one that tripped us up sometimes was the ' GEORGE DID IT' scenario.

 

[katydid23]

I don't think Caylee was actually buried but I sure don't buy George putting her there. He was a cop and imo would have had a better plan. I can just see it now...Casey trying to blame her own father. The jury is gonna love that.

EXACTLY. George, being an ex detective would never hide a body there---UNLESS HE WAS FRAMING SOMEONE.

He was afraid Casey was going to tell on him so he framed her before she could do so. Perfect defense.