What's eating you alive re this case?

[ghostrighter]

Sedndun, This is an interesting scenario. It closes gaps and made me take it a little further. This made me think of the following:
Maybe it happens as you describe but instead JR carries the presumed sleeping JB to bed and JB is not wet. JR gets BR to bed. Takes his pill leaving PR to finish packing. Some time later, PR goes in to wake JB up to use the bathroom. PR is determined to get JB up. The last thing they need before rushing to the plane is a wet child that needs a bath and clean clothes. The plan is to have the children wear their pajamas to the plane. Unable to wake JB, PR realizes there is something terribly wrong. No matter what she does, PR cannot get JB to wake up. JB must be really zonked. PR shakes JB and even checks JB's eyes by pulling up the lids. She see's one eye drooping and slightly bulging. Maybe she feels JB's head and feels a wound. It is then that she realizes the severity of the situation and believes JB is dead. By this time JR is fast asleep from the pill(s) he took. PR goes to speak to BR who is now in his bed. He tells his mom what happened. PR tells BR to stay in bed. This is a terrible thing and you are grounded to your room. You are in so much trouble. After this point BR has no idea what he's done, really. He never does. He's hit his sister before. BR falls asleep for the night.

PR then begins to stage the scene thinking JB is dead. Makes it look like anything but what it is. PR is left to fix it by herself. JR had/has no idea. He's fast asleep. This makes her angry and she directs her anger to JR in the RN. This, in her mind, is JRs fault. Once the note is written, PR goes and gets the rope out of the bag found in JARs bedroom. She goes to JB's bedroom and starts to tie JB up but is afraid someone will see her. She carries JB to the basement. (and so on) I don't have an opinion about what takes place the rest of the night waiting until its time to wake JR up. Who, again, doesn't have a clue about what is about to happen.

BR doesn't wake that morning until his mother is suddenly in his room looking for his sister. PR must make BR believe that JB is missing. BR thinks he's still in trouble and stays in his room.

Only my opinion.

 

[andreww]

I get where you guys are going with this but I don't think there would be mistaking the condition she was in for being asleep. Her breathing would be very shallow and her colour would be fading. Her eyes may have been open. She might have been convulsing.

 

[UKGuy]

The thing that eats me alive the most in this case how FW didn't smell the decomposition in the wine cellar when he initially checked it. I am an RN, so I have been around plenty of corpses. The smell begins almost as soon as the last breath is taken. It has been overwhelming in cases where the family spends a considerable amount of time in the patients room with the door closed, which causes the morgue or mortuary courier to obtain the body at a much later time than usual. This occurs in a matter of hours. Typically 2-3 and you can definitely smell decomposition. It is an unmistakable smell. The smell of a body supposedly lying in a closed wine cellar with little to no ventilation had to be overwhelming. How is it possible that FW didn't smell it, unless JR truly moved her body during his unwitnessed trip to the basement? The fact that an expired human being of several hours was in a basement and nobody smelled it is something I have never been able to understand...

TBellisario,
It might be on his second visit he did smell decomposition, but by then it would be unremarkable?

Could be this is why he returned down to the wine-cellar just to confirm what he smelled?

FW was in that wine-cellar on three occasions that day, he is the only one alive with first hand experience, excluding JR.

.

 

[sedndun]

I get where you guys are going with this but I don't think there would be mistaking the condition she was in for being asleep. Her breathing would be very shallow and her colour would be fading. Her eyes may have been open. She might have been convulsing.

Convulsing or open eyes would be quite a tell, but those are unknown. I don't know about her color- her heart was still working but may have slowed. I'm also not imagining this happening long after the blow occurred- maybe within fifteen minutes. When putting an already sleeping child to bed, lights are kept to a minimum, so they may not have have gotten a good look at her. Now also consider that on a night such as Christmas, one does expect a young child to eventually "crash," so whatever state she was in would have been expected- this isn't the same as if she'd randomly been found passed out which would cause concern. Also realize that by Christmas night the parents are pretty much over-extended and aren't at their best or most observant.

 

[sedndun]

Sedndun, This is an interesting scenario. It closes gaps and made me take it a little further. This made me think of the following:
Maybe it happens as you describe but instead JR carries the presumed sleeping JB to bed and JB is not wet. JR gets BR to bed. Takes his pill leaving PR to finish packing. Some time later, PR goes in to wake JB up to use the bathroom. PR is determined to get JB up. The last thing they need before rushing to the plane is a wet child that needs a bath and clean clothes. The plan is to have the children wear their pajamas to the plane. Unable to wake JB, PR realizes there is something terribly wrong. No matter what she does, PR cannot get JB to wake up. JB must be really zonked. PR shakes JB and even checks JB's eyes by pulling up the lids. She see's one eye drooping and slightly bulging. Maybe she feels JB's head and feels a wound. It is then that she realizes the severity of the situation and believes JB is dead. By this time JR is fast asleep from the pill(s) he took. PR goes to speak to BR who is now in his bed. He tells his mom what happened. PR tells BR to stay in bed. This is a terrible thing and you are grounded to your room. You are in so much trouble. After this point BR has no idea what he's done, really. He never does. He's hit his sister before. BR falls asleep for the night.

PR then begins to stage the scene thinking JB is dead. Makes it look like anything but what it is. PR is left to fix it by herself. JR had/has no idea. He's fast asleep. This makes her angry and she directs her anger to JR in the RN. This, in her mind, is JRs fault. Once the note is written, PR goes and gets the rope out of the bag found in JARs bedroom. She goes to JB's bedroom and starts to tie JB up but is afraid someone will see her. She carries JB to the basement. (and so on) I don't have an opinion about what takes place the rest of the night waiting until its time to wake JR up. Who, again, doesn't have a clue about what is about to happen.

BR doesn't wake that morning until his mother is suddenly in his room looking for his sister. PR must make BR believe that JB is missing. BR thinks he's still in trouble and stays in his room.

Only my opinion.

Thanks for letting me know this scenario seems plausible to you.
It makes the sense to me that John did in fact sleep, or at least had fallen asleep at some point. He was the one who had to be fully functional the next day as he was the pilot. Everyone else just needed to make it from the house to the plane where they could go back to sleep (as seems to have been the plan.) The kids being up late probably wasn't seen as a problem- in fact, that would make it more likely for them to sleep on the plane which would be preferable (if you've had rambunctious kids in a car, imagine that up in the air in a small plane.
My only issue with your sequence of events is it takes out the idea of Burke using the train tracks to prod her, but there are other times/ways those marks could have been made.
Your idea does bring clarity to an idea that I don't think had been taken to the level you've expressed. I've assumed Burke hadn't been around for much of the staging, and was sent to bed. My assumption had always been that since the last time he saw JonBenet her condition was uncertain, so he could separate it in his mind from what was eventually revealed. Thinking that Patsy's whole motivation for the grotesque staging was less about deceiving the authorities and more about freeing her own child from his own sense of guilt is interesting.
Now here is where your post takes my mind and brings another item into play: In JonBenet's bedroom, Patsy may have trouble fully assessing if JonBenet's condition is as bad as it seems. As has been assumed from the ransom note, a lot of what she knows of such situations was learned from movies and television. How do you know if someone is dead/breathing etc? You put something made of stainless steel below their nose to see if they are breathing, and you use a flashlight to check and see if their eyes dilate. Both of those items are in the kitchen.
Let's imagine Patsy holding JonBenet, taking one of her pillows with her. She stops by the door of Burke's room and tells him to go to sleep, that JonBenet's not feeling well, so she's going to sit with her for a bit. She takes the girl and lays her on the kitchen floor using the pillow to rest her head. She takes something like a spoon or a pot and checks her breathing. She finds the flashlight and checks her eyes again. I would assume if there were any positive signs of life that she would have called an ambulance, but I'll just end this line of thinking there.

 

[TeaTime]

The rope from JAR's room wasn't used because it was too rough and she didn't want to injure JBR's skin. She was carried downstairs wrapped in the blanket, her hair hanging and getting green fake Christmas tree plastic in her hair. It wasn't until they reached the basement, that mom realized she was still alive. Horror upon horror. Nearly 2 hours have passed and the child is still alive, there is no turning back.

If she calls the the police, they can't save JBR - no one can. JBR is going to die, period. But, if the police are called, BR will be taken away and institutionalized. And, there was no way that PR, or her money man, JR were going to be the parents of the kid who killed his sister.

You guys are 100% right on this line of thinking. Why do you think that JBR's coat was still in the car? You know, the one JR said that he took off of her as he put her to bed.

 

[TeaTime]

Sedndun - maybe you just explained the kitchen knife found outside JBR's bedroom in the laundry area.

 

[Annapurna]

Just a minor point but relevant to these theories: John took melatonin. If you know about this you know it's not really a "sleeping pill" as in, it won't knock you out. It is something he brain naturally produces when it's time to sleep, and ppl take it to regulate their sleep schedule. It could help make you sleepy, but it won't make you unconscious.

Also, again minor, John was not the pilot of the plane, his vision wasn't good enough anymore. Mike Archuletta was the pilot of JR's plane.


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[sedndun]

Sedndun - maybe you just explained the kitchen knife found outside JBR's bedroom in the laundry area.

Never heard of this- interesting.

 

[Disgusted]

I get where you guys are going with this but I don't think there would be mistaking the condition she was in for being asleep. Her breathing would be very shallow and her colour would be fading. Her eyes may have been open. She might have been convulsing.

Agree with you 100%. For this and many other reasons, this theory of putting her to bed with the unknown head injury holds no water.

 

[Teresa]

Just a thought I've had... If Patsy didn'didn't cause Jon Benets head injury she would have screamed for John. This is a wife's first instict in a situation this. Well it is for me. The couple would have worked together to protect their son.

 

[andreww]

Just a thought I've had... If Patsy didn'didn't cause Jon Benets head injury she would have screamed for John. This is a wife's first instict in a situation this. Well it is for me. The couple would have worked together to protect their son.

Maybe in a normal marriage, but this wasn't a normal marriage. I don't think those two were getting along. Look at the Christmas presents, nothing says romance like a bike and a cell phone. On Christmas Day, John leaves. And by all accounts they do not comfort each other when JB is missing.


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[Ambitioned]

Maybe in a normal marriage, but this wasn't a normal marriage. I don't think those two were getting along. Look at the Christmas presents, nothing says romance like a bike and a cell phone. On Christmas Day, John leaves. And by all accounts they do not comfort each other when JB is missing.

I had the same thought. Theirs was like a business transaction.

 

[Miz Adventure]

I want to ask people this question. If you found your child lying on the floor with a head injury which of these options would you choose?

1. Call 911
2. Strangle her

There is NO WAY a mother is going to strangle her child, even if she thinks she might be dead. And although I think Patsy was strange I don't believe she was so round the bend that she would not have called 911.

There is only one scenario in which Patsy and John would have felt the need to stage a cover up - and that is if they found JBR had already been strangled and was beyond help.

The head blow came first and an hour later the strangulation occurred.

You don't stage a crime-scene cover up for a head injury. A head injury could easily be explained away. However.....there could be no explanation for why a child has been found strangled is there?

The Ramseys were the only people in the house that night. The knew it and so would everyone else UNLESS they invented an intruder. And that's what they did. They were probably afraid that Burke would be taken from them - which is exactly what WOULD have happened.

 

[Teresa]

I agree these two weren't a typical couple but don't you think a nonresponsive child could could change this?

 

[andreww]

There is NO WAY a mother is going to strangle her child, even if she thinks she might be dead. And although I think Patsy was strange I don't believe she was so round the bend that she would not have called 911.

There is only one scenario in which Patsy and John would have felt the need to stage a cover up - and that is if they found JBR had already been strangled and was beyond help.

The head blow came first and an hour later the strangulation occurred.

There are many reasons why she was strangled. It is highly likely that the strangling and sexual assault was done to hide and mask the presence of previous sexual assaults. So would Patsy call 911 knowing full well that Burke had a nasty habit of playing doctor with his dead sister? I really thing she wouldn't. Lets not forget that dictionary that was dogeared to the word "incest" as well as the autopsy report stating there was evidence of long term sexual abuse. Lets not forget all those visits to Dr. Beuff, and lets not forget the statement from LHP about Burke being found under the covers of JBRs bed in only his underwear.

Patsy may have wanted to call 911 but there was no way in hell that she was going to have all that come out.

And there is always the possibility that JBR was already bound when found. How was she going to explain that?

When JR says that "what has happened to us is the real tragedy", it shows exactly how these people think. They care only about themselves and even the death of their 6 year old daughter is more of an inconvenience to them than anything else.

So would I call 911? Sure. Would Patsy? I don't think se would.

 

[andreww]

I agree these two weren't a typical couple but don't you think a nonresponsive child could could change this?

Here's what I think. Patsy is an actor, John isn't. I think that she thought the only way she could pull this off was if John actually believed it. She knew John would be loyal to her in that regard.

 

[TeaTime]

MizAdventure - I, too, want to believe that mothers do not harm their children in horrific ways but it happens all day every day. It is a fact.

 

[sedndun]

Agree with you 100%. For this and many other reasons, this theory of putting her to bed with the unknown head injury holds no water.

The accounts of JonBenet after the blow to the head mostly just refer to her as unconscious (with little possibility of regaining it at any point.) There are mentions of possible physical signs that would have made her true condition more obvious, but they are mentioned speculatively. Even Kolar says he was unaware of even a nosebleed. From what I have read, the blow to the head seemed a genuine surprise to the Ramsey's when it was mentioned to them later. I don't think I've read an account where anyone who had seen her body had noticed the blow to the head- even the coroner had been unaware as he began.

I am not married to this theory, but it is one that is putting a lot of things in line in my own mind. The genesis of it came from the Ramsey's account of JonBenet's state when they put her to bed- the extra bits about how out of it she was. If it is common enough for a parent to remove a sleeping child from a car, walk them up stairs, change them, and put them to bed all without waking them, then why is the idea of doing the same during this more severe form of unconsciousness hold no water? And again, these were exhausted parents, possibly in a dimly lit environment- who, most importantly- would have expected her to be in a similar state. If you have better information, please share it so I don't waste too much time going down this path.

 

[TeaTime]

Sedandun - JBR was awake at some point after getting home, she ate pineapple. I think you are on target with the 'zonked' thing and that it happened after PR gave them the pineapple and the parents were occupied elsewhere, then came upon JBR zonked and carried her up to bed, not realizing the injury had even occurred. Later, BR left his room and went to see what was up with JBR, poked her with the train tracks and PR saw him scurrying from her room or he went up to get momma because JBR wasn't waking up. Either way, she went in to check and voila! a non-responsive child. I think you are right, she then sent him to bed and the rest is well known.