Who molested/abused Jonbenet?

[Flatlander]

Flatlander,
Even if its BDI, I doubt Burke had much to do with the wine-cellar staging, also his parents, on forensic grounds, would want to separate him from the wine-cellar area.

The swiss army knife does not offer much in way of clues, as it is Ramsey property. At most it can only suggest, what most RDI think, e.g. a Ramsey was involved.


For me its either PDI with John as an accessory, or JDI with Patsy as an accessory. BDI is an option, but how do we factor in the abuse?


.

The swiss army knife is a clue because it is out of place. It was last placed in the cabinet next to the diapers by LHP; as I understand it. Burke confessed to the location of said particuliar knife to the police 3 days after JB passing. I don't think BR had a lot of parental coaching @ that point in time, especially since his folks weren't speaking to one another and according to JR to BR either; via 911.

As for the BR abuse factor. I also understand that BR had a toileting issue of his own until his little sister came along. Who knows maybe BR was molested as well. It is not unheard of. I am also of the opinion that the abuse could have started with DP.

It is all mere speculation on my part but I cannot for the life of me understand why a parent would do something so horrendous unless JB stated she was tired of all of it and was about to confess. Covered up to shut up. I truly believe the head injury was an accident and the rest is well ..... I ask myself what was the motive?

I also believe that we all agree that something went terribly wrong that night. I personally happen to think maybe, just maybe BR and DS started the downfall.

KoldKase you are amazing. Thank you so much for all your in sight! You have made me look at the stangulation in a new light. Poor Johnnie B :innocent: With as many great brains as Websleuths has maybe we can hit the nail on the head. Something is missing.....
Wondering about the stain KoldKase found on the ligature. Could that have been fluids from the mouth? If not that should be a can of worms!

 

[KoldKase]

Thanks, Flatlander, but I have to give credit to the whole gang of us who can't seem to give up the search, as it's a collective knowledge that keeps us going. There's always something that we haven't figured out which someone starts us talking about, and wham! Like the paintbrush remnants and ligature ends: I feel quite dumb that I didn't see this already, as long as I've been staring at it. :waitasec:

I've been playing with graphics again and I think I'm onto something about how that paintbrush was broken. My demonstration is very crude--in my dreams I have wonderful graphics programs and whiz bang computers and such, but in reality, I don't. I've posted these enlargements and comparisons at FFJ just to keep the photo record going for discussion, as someone else may pick up the thread and find something. See what y'all think:

[ame="http://www.forumsforjustice.org/forums/showthread.php?p=189203#post189203"]Autopsy photos: CAUTION GRAPHIC - Page 3 - Forums For Justice[/ame]

 

[UKGuy]

Also, I've been working with cords recently in a craft which uses them, so I just noticed something else I may or may not have noticed before (been researching this case waaaaaay too long): the ends of the cords found on JonBenet were quite unraveled. I tape mine so that won't happen. Now I wonder if these had been cut before that night:

Picture from FFJ, but WARNING! GRAPHIC AUTOPSY PHOTOS:

Autopsy photos: CAUTION GRAPHIC - Forums For Justice

See if this clarifies what I'm thinking: these cords were not cut with scissors, but were "sawed." I once read a fiber from the cord was found on the Swiss Army Knife found in the basement. Also remember there was an odd kitchen "paring" knife found on the washing machine in the laundry area outside JB's room.

[Click to enlarge the picture.]

KoldKase,
I seem to remember discussing the topic of the cord flaring before. Possibly with BlueCrab as part of his BDI?

Its also possible, even likely, that the cord had been in use elsewhere, and simply borrowed for the staging?

There was also the suggestion that it was John who applied the restraints in the period he went missing.




.

 

[Myself]

I don't know for sure who it was that may have molested her. I know that I always thought it was likely she had molestation prior to the crime based on the chronic damage to the vagina.
But it was an extremely large home. There is a possibility somebody was coming into the home at night visiting the little girl, unbeknown to other family members. Both the bedroom of her mother & brother were some distance from her- on the other end of the house. The father was away a lot on business & oldest half brother coming & going sporadically. So plenty of opportunity for an intruder to visit prior to the night in question.
What of the Santa visit that Barbara Kostanick spoke of?
What of the man that claimed her as his daughter at one of her last pageants who was not her father?
I just don't think this child was supervised enough.

 

[Noodles]

I don't know for sure who it was that may have molested her. I know that I always thought it was likely she had molestation prior to the crime based on the chronic damage to the vagina.
But it was an extremely large home. There is a possibility somebody was coming into the home at night visiting the little girl, unbeknown to other family members. Both the bedroom of her mother & brother were some distance from her- on the other end of the house. The father was away a lot on business & oldest half brother coming & going sporadically. So plenty of opportunity for an intruder to visit prior to the night in question.
What of the Santa visit that Barbara Kostanick spoke of?
What of the man that claimed her as his daughter at one of her last pageants who was not her father?
I just don't think this child was supervised enough.

This is just a small thing I suppose, but it helps me think there was no intruder. Pats said that JB's bedroom door was just as she left it the night before, when she finally went to check on JB before the 911 call. I cant see someone hiding under her bed, or anywhere for that matter -- then entering and/or exiting the bedroom, snatching JB then returning the door (slightly open so JB could see the bathroom light I believe) to the exact same spot. And if JB got up on her own in the night, then the door should have been open. It doesnt make sense to me an intruder would take the time to do that. This was documented in the Thomas book. JMO




On a side note, I cant remember where I read it (prolly here, lol) that this Christmas house thing where hundreds of folks trampled thru their house actually happened in 1994, not 1996. So the excuse that a potential intruder toured the house during that particular Christmas was false. I may have the 1994 year wrong but the point was, it wasnt the year JB was murdered.

 

[Flatlander]

Thanks, Flatlander, but I have to give credit to the whole gang of us who can't seem to give up the search, as it's a collective knowledge that keeps us going. There's always something that we haven't figured out which someone starts us talking about, and wham! Like the paintbrush remnants and ligature ends: I feel quite dumb that I didn't see this already, as long as I've been staring at it. :waitasec:

I've been playing with graphics again and I think I'm onto something about how that paintbrush was broken. My demonstration is very crude--in my dreams I have wonderful graphics programs and whiz bang computers and such, but in reality, I don't. I've posted these enlargements and comparisons at FFJ just to keep the photo record going for discussion, as someone else may pick up the thread and find something. See what y'all think:

Autopsy photos: CAUTION GRAPHIC - Page 3 - Forums For Justice

Great Job again KoldKase. I personally have a lot of paint brushes and can not imagine the effort it would take to break one. Maybe with the aid of a vice and a hammer. I do a lot of work around the house and well .... it just seems an extremely difficult job to do. I wonder why it was broken in the first place? I am going to further research this as well.

Also it was stated that the original head blow may have been in JB's bathroom. The only way I can see this is if PR put JB in the bathtub and yanked her up by the hair and her head hit the water spout. I do not see any rectangular objects on the toilet or bathtub that could cause such a blow.

Just wondering as well how BR was privy to the location of his swiss army knife and the Hi tech imprint found in the basement. JR stated that the basement floor had just recently been swept.

 

[Myself]

It was 1994, you are right. Patsy had just recovered from chemotherapy and wanted to do something for Christmas so they decided to put the house on the tour.
I was of the impression that there were a few family friends over for the Christmas party that featured the 911 call but nothing more than 20-30 people.
Although there were a lot of keys unaccounted for and other tradespeople coming & going from the house.
This isn't the type of person I meant however, not one coming as a result of a tour. I meant that it would have been possible for a trusted adult to enter & exit the house repeatedly unbeknown to anyone except JBR because it was a large home & it's not like occupants of other bedrooms would have had any idea what was going on in her bedroom at night. Who knows she may have known the offender and shielded them by covering for them if they made her feel special. It could have been a family member or someone she had developed a friendship with that her parents were unaware of. By all accounts she was allowed to play outside the home & walk to friends homes etc & nobody has yet found this man who claimed her as his daughter at the pageant. I just think the supervision was not that night & a lot could have been going on.
Maybe she was expecting a visit from her secret friend & a lot went wrong.
Having said that yes I do tend to agree with you that the door being made ajar does not make sense. Unless they went downstairs together & the person who encouraged her to go down wanted to leave it that way. Maybe they had done this before.
It also doesn't make any sense that a member of the household would have felt pressure to put the door back to being ajar. They could have left it anyway they liked & who would have cared? We only have her word that it was ajar, and she was so hysterical it's possible she was wrong.
But you are right in saying there is a lot that just doesn't make sense- a lot of anomalies.

 

[Myself]

With regard to the head injury, I read that the force used with that blow would have been enough to bring down a 300 pound man and it was a very localized blow, not something that would have occurred by a generalized fall, but more a specialized object. Like a golf club or a baseball bat.
I was under the impression that meant the killer would have had to stand astride the body and hit the head from a certain angle with enough blunt force to cause that type of trauma. There were definitely outlines of breaks in the skull.

 

[DeeDee249]

I don't know for sure who it was that may have molested her. I know that I always thought it was likely she had molestation prior to the crime based on the chronic damage to the vagina.
But it was an extremely large home. There is a possibility somebody was coming into the home at night visiting the little girl, unbeknown to other family members. Both the bedroom of her mother & brother were some distance from her- on the other end of the house. The father was away a lot on business & oldest half brother coming & going sporadically. So plenty of opportunity for an intruder to visit prior to the night in question.
What of the Santa visit that Barbara Kostanick spoke of?
What of the man that claimed her as his daughter at one of her last pageants who was not her father?
I just don't think this child was supervised enough.

I just can't see a stranger, even someone who knew the family, getting into the house repeatedly and no one knowing. The only person coming and going who did not actually live there was JAR- he came back and forth many weekend from campus. Interesting to note that many of JB's school nurse visits took place on a Monday.
Do you have a source for the man who "claimed she was his daugher" ? I have never seen that one before.

 

[DeeDee249]

With regard to the head injury, I read that the force used with that blow would have been enough to bring down a 300 pound man and it was a very localized blow, not something that would have occurred by a generalized fall, but more a specialized object. Like a golf club or a baseball bat.
I was under the impression that meant the killer would have had to stand astride the body and hit the head from a certain angle with enough blunt force to cause that type of trauma. There were definitely outlines of breaks in the skull.

I don't know about the "300 pound man" part, but that fracture was certainly caused by something hitting HER, and not her hitting something. It did NOT happen in a fall. I doubt it would have happened even if she was slammed into something. That was a depressed skull fracture, which enough force to punch a hole in the skull and crack it half way around. That was NOT from a fall or falling into something. The coroner was correct- BLUNT FORCE TRAUMA.
But the killer did not necessarily have to stand astride her body, and actually, the same hole wouldn't have resulted of he had. The killer was standing behind her.

 

[KoldKase]

It was 1994, you are right. Patsy had just recovered from chemotherapy and wanted to do something for Christmas so they decided to put the house on the tour.
I was of the impression that there were a few family friends over for the Christmas party that featured the 911 call but nothing more than 20-30 people.
Although there were a lot of keys unaccounted for and other tradespeople coming & going from the house.
This isn't the type of person I meant however, not one coming as a result of a tour. I meant that it would have been possible for a trusted adult to enter & exit the house repeatedly unbeknown to anyone except JBR because it was a large home & it's not like occupants of other bedrooms would have had any idea what was going on in her bedroom at night. Who knows she may have known the offender and shielded them by covering for them if they made her feel special. It could have been a family member or someone she had developed a friendship with that her parents were unaware of. By all accounts she was allowed to play outside the home & walk to friends homes etc & nobody has yet found this man who claimed her as his daughter at the pageant. I just think the supervision was not that night & a lot could have been going on.
Maybe she was expecting a visit from her secret friend & a lot went wrong.
Having said that yes I do tend to agree with you that the door being made ajar does not make sense. Unless they went downstairs together & the person who encouraged her to go down wanted to leave it that way. Maybe they had done this before.
It also doesn't make any sense that a member of the household would have felt pressure to put the door back to being ajar. They could have left it anyway they liked & who would have cared? We only have her word that it was ajar, and she was so hysterical it's possible she was wrong.
But you are right in saying there is a lot that just doesn't make sense- a lot of anomalies.

The problem with this theory is that you're laying out something that would have been highly improbable with the evidence as we know it:

You're proposing that someone known to the family or at least known to the neighborhood repeatedly entered the home, molested JB at night, and was never suspected or heard, never revealed by JonBenet, and for some reason decided to murder her in a most bizarre scenario that included counting on none of her family waking up, JB not having told someone this person was unaware of about what he was doing, not having a neighbor in such close housing ever notice him slipping in and out, and leaving no evidence behind whatsoever that would point to him, even though he was known to the family?

And this person was able to successfully forge Patsy's handwriting in a ransom note, on her pad with her pen, in her linguistic style? Why?

Also, miraculously enough, the Ramseys then decided to aid this intruder by conducting themselves afterward as prime suspects who were guilty, including lying to law enforcement and the public repeatedly, stalling the investigation immediately and forevermore, and withholding critical evidence and interviews with the full knowledge that they were obstructing the investigation by doing so, among countless other things?

Also, do you believe that anyone known by the Ramseys who could have coerced JonBenet in his brilliantly concealed acts of pedophilia over some period of time didn't have his DNA tested? So he not only didn't leave any other evidence he committed this crime, but that holy grail of "intruder" evidence in this case, the "touch" DNA, doesn't match him, either?

Can anyone imagine that Patsy didn't know about the previous molestation as the injuries to JonBenet's hymen, rim, and vaginal vault caused the child symptoms that would have included spot bleeding, something any careful parent would notice in her child's panties? JB went to the doctor nearly 30 times in her short life; she was even diagnosed with vaginitis, was a chronic bed-wetter, and Patsy complained to a family friend that she "flirted" inappropriately. Patsy in fact called Dr. Beuf on Dec. 17th after office hours three times for something neither the doctor nor Patsy seemed to remember after the murder, oddly enough. Rather than call one of her many doctors the day after the murder, what a coincidence that Dr. Beuf arrived at the Fernies' home that night to treat...PATSY! Do you not find any of these circumstances troubling in light of the autopsy findings of chronic vaginal injuries?

For an intruder to have done this, he would have to be the luckiest and most brilliant pedophile on the planet: the parents couldn't have been more helpful to him after the murder; in a crowded University housing area no one saw or heard him during these stealth visits, not even with the Ramsey's many relatives, friends, and employees coming and going; he left not one molecule of evidence anyone has found, not even a strand of his DNA, yet was able to craft a ransom note--for what reason no one knows--so similar to what Patsy herself would have written, she can't be eliminated as the writer and author to this day; and his victim never told anyone about him, though he couldn't have known that when he decided to murder her, for which he would have gotten the death penalty if caught, rather than a few years for child molestation, if that is your idea of his motive?

I could go on, but you get the idea. I don't see it. But that's just me.

 

[BOESP]

I don't know about the "300 pound man" part, but that fracture was certainly caused by something hitting HER, and not her hitting something. It did NOT happen in a fall. I doubt it would have happened even if she was slammed into something. That was a depressed skull fracture, which enough force to punch a hole in the skull and crack it half way around. That was NOT from a fall or falling into something. The coroner was correct- BLUNT FORCE TRAUMA.
But the killer did not necessarily have to stand astride her body, and actually, the same hole wouldn't have resulted of he had. The killer was standing behind her.

With due respect, blunt force trauma does not mean the victim was hit with an object. It could mean that, but not necessarily.

I am still of the view the wound was low velocity/high pressure blunt force trauma. I could be wrong. I just hope it is solved some day and I know everyone here feels that way too.

 

[KoldKase]

With regard to the head injury, I read that the force used with that blow would have been enough to bring down a 300 pound man and it was a very localized blow, not something that would have occurred by a generalized fall, but more a specialized object. Like a golf club or a baseball bat.
I was under the impression that meant the killer would have had to stand astride the body and hit the head from a certain angle with enough blunt force to cause that type of trauma. There were definitely outlines of breaks in the skull.

Sorry I don't have more time for this right now, but if you'll check around, you'll find that human skulls are not that different, regardless of size. Children do have softer skull bone, so it would have taken a bit less of the brute-force you're imagining.

In truth, even a child can do serious damage to a human skull, even an adult's. That's why they make foam bats for children and have them wear helmets when they play T-ball. The physics involved in creating force swinging a long, hard object like a bat or golf club don't demand strong men to be considerable, if that's what you're thinking. On a rare magical day, I've actually matched my husband's long shots on a golf course, and his muscle strength is much greater than mine.

The damage to the skull could have been done by anyone in the home that night.

 

[KoldKase]

With due respect, blunt force trauma does not mean the victim was hit with an object. It could mean that, but not necessarily.

I am still of the view the wound was low velocity/high pressure blunt force trauma. I could be wrong. I just hope it is solved some day and I know everyone here feels that way too.

The issue with the head injury being caused by some kind of fall or violent acceleration is there is no other evidence of that in any kind of physical injury to the body.

For example, no broken neck, no "fall" bruising indicated in the autopsy report. etc. A body moving fast enough to crack a skull in half on impact would have a torso and limbs crashing behind the head impact, like in a head on collision.

If you have some thoughts about other injuries she had which could be interpreted as high velocity/impact injuries, I'd be interested in hearing them.

 

[BOESP]

The issue with the head injury being caused by some kind of fall or violent acceleration is there is no other evidence of that in any kind of physical injury to the body.

For example, no broken neck, no "fall" bruising indicated in the autopsy report. etc. A body moving fast enough to crack a skull in half on impact would have a torso and limbs crashing behind the head impact, like in a head on collision.

If you have some thoughts about other injuries she had which could be interpreted as high velocity/impact injuries, I'd be interested in hearing them.

I think grabbing a child by collar or shoving them into a doorknob, faucet, doorstop, any number of things, could cause the damage as seen on JonBenet. Even a child lying on the floor and grabbed by the collar and shoved onto the floor would not necessarily have bruising elsewhere on their body or have a broken neck. It could happen but the injury, along with the autopsy report, doesn't mean an object was swung and hit the head. It could be but not necessarily.

There are several old threads here where we discussed this pretty well.

 

[Myself]

Thanks for all the responses. I didn't expect so much interest in my comments.
I am reading on an iPhone so will have to find each one separately & try to respond.

 

[Myself]

I just can't see a stranger, even someone who knew the family, getting into the house repeatedly and no one knowing. The only person coming and going who did not actually live there was JAR- he came back and forth many weekend from campus. Interesting to note that many of JB's school nurse visits took place on a Monday.
Do you have a source for the man who "claimed she was his daugher" ? I have never seen that one before.

I'm just trying to quote each one of you & write back so hopefully this makes sense.
In all probability what you are saying is hard to imagine in many people's lives but not impossible. Maybe she knew the person & didn't want to tell anyone.
It's not impossible but I agree it does seem farfetched.
The problem is we don't really know.
I have read most theories on this case and in my mind they all have aspects that seem probable & others that seem very improbable.

The man who claimed to be the father: I have to find this one again. It was on a show my mother watched & we are in Australia so maybe we have different shows to you. I will ask her.

 

[joedotnet]

Sent from my SGH-i937 using Board Express

 

[Flatlander]

I'm just trying to quote each one of you & write back so hopefully this makes sense.
In all probability what you are saying is hard to imagine in many people's lives but not impossible. Maybe she knew the person & didn't want to tell anyone.
It's not impossible but I agree it does seem farfetched.
The problem is we don't really know.
I have read most theories on this case and in my mind they all have aspects that seem probable & others that seem very improbable.

The man who claimed to be the father: I have to find this one again. It was on a show my mother watched & we are in Australia so maybe we have different shows to you. I will ask her.

When I first started studying this case I use to be of the option that is was JAR that was abusing JB. Reason's for me thinking this: He came and went. He was linked to the crime scene via the duvet cover (dark fibers) stained with his semen (in the suitcase) found in the celler, with a Dr. Suess book. Would love to know the name of that book. JB had brown paper bag fibers on her body that matched a bag found under JARS bed that contained rope JB used as a stage prop. Also JAR had a really bad temper. The bathroom drawers in his bedroom were left open. It would have been easy for him to have dressed up as Santa and stayed in his room until lights were out. MOO

Then I started looking at the dynamics of JR and PR covering up for JAR. JR yes, but not PR. The only person I can see both of them covering for this was one of two people. DP or BR.

I am sorry I do not know of a man that claimed to be her father, although I have been seeing that pop up a lot as of late.

 

[cynic]

I am sorry I do not know of a man that claimed to be her father, although I have been seeing that pop up a lot as of late.

The resurgence of the story about the man claiming to be her father is likely due to it being mentioned in the recent Aphrodite Jones "documentary."