Who molested/abused Jonbenet?

[midwest mama]

I agree both parents loved their little girl. What happened that night happened in an instant- one horrible, irreversible moment. A second and she was gone. I believe the head bash was so severe that she collapsed instantly, probably became comatose at once. She may have appeared dead at that point as shock and coma would have lowered her body temperature and her breathing may have become so shallow as to seem to be non-existent. So here we have a child who seems to have been killed instantly (though this was not the case) and how do we "explain" THAT? We know also that something penetrated her vagina with enough force to make her bleed, and she bled enough that it dripped onto her thighs and required wiping off. The abuse was intentional. The head bash was intentional. Her death was not. It's how they all fit together that holds the key to this murder.

:bump: Came across this post of DeeDee249's, and thought it deserved to be highlighted again. It sums up very quickly, using the available evidence, how we might look at this case and accept that in order to arrive at a theory that has no holes, this was a crime in which it was most likely both parents, IMO, would have to know it was sexually based. They would have to take great measures to point as far away as they could from the three R's who were alive on the morning of December 26, which ended up being a success for the R's to this day.

I have no doubt JB was being molested within her family, and I suspect there were others within the R circle who had been involved at times. Until very recently, I have been able to give Patsy a total pass, but there is just too much evidence, along with the released GJ findings, which makes it hard for me to continue to do.

IMO, at the very least, PR was enabling JB to be victimized within her immediate circle. I do believe, though, that JR was most closely associated with the molestation of his daughter. And after forcing myself to read both of the Ramsey books, I am even more convinced.

One thing the books do, IMO, is provide a permanent "pass" for Burke, and can assist him throughout his life in trying to recover from his own life in the hell-hole. Granted, both of the R's propagandized their daughter's death and solicited sympathy for themselves, but bottom line of their stories places them both in a position of innocence and suffering that allows Burke the option of believing his parents might have some redemptive qualities, which releases him from being genetic damaged goods - at least in his own mind.

If you have read the Ramsey works, and believe the R's are guilty, then there can be no doubt that both JR and PR had mental/emotional incapacity, to say the least. JR reveals his religious and social maladjustment going back to his youth. Make no mistake, John Ramsey is very intelligent, clever and confident man. But his "other side" - the one he keeps mostly to himself, is the one, IMO, that makes him tick-tock.

IMO, he is a master at subterfuge, and there are clear incidences related in his book that divulge this. His goal in life has been to appear worldly successful, a model of logical and reasonable actions which depict him being the "poster father" within a well-adjusted, well-respected family. He will do and does do whatever he feels it will take to continue to present this portrait. He has to, because he cannot accept for himself who the real JR is. IMO, the real JR is a sexual deviant, incapable of a real relationship with anyone, least of all himself.

He is a man who has convinced himself that he has received the gift of grace from God only because he was subjected to enough "unfair" things in life to teach him that it's through suffering you truly come to understand your need for Christ. Any true Christian knows that while often it is great pain that brings some to Christ, there are plenty of Christians who glory in the gift of grace that brings them a life of blessings - those who consider life's trials completely surmountable because they know the Lord, and don't accept that they must suffer unduly just to drive home the point.

Sorry this posting is getting so long. This thread is about who abused/molested JB - and IMO, it rightly has JR in the lead, but also includes other options that I believe are possible. I want to end this with something JR wrote in TOSOS because, IMO, it is bottom line proof of how ill he really is, and that there was a connection to both Beth and JB that is beyond what I consider to be the norm for most fathers:

from Chapter 12, titled "All Things for Good?" with a subtitle quote; God judged it better to bring good out of evil than to suffer no evil to exist. --
St. Augustine

"For a while after Beth's death, I couldn't bring myself to sleep in a bed. I felt I should honor her by the act of discomfort and sleep on the floor. For weeks, I lay on the floor beside the bed, my face in my hands, my heart aching. When JonBenet was murdered, I hit the floor again. Sleep wouldn't come, and when it did, it was fitful. I refused to sleep in the comfort of a bed. Making myself comfortable just didn't seem right."

 

[questfortrue]

One good JR quote deserves another!
From the 700 club (700 Club is the flagship news talk show of the Christian Broadcasting) published on acandyrose
JOHN: They are lies, that is all I could say. First of all, I loved my daughters. I had 3 wonderful daughters. I would give my life for them. But I wish the killer would have taken me that night instead of JonBenet. To accuse me of doing anything but protecting my daughter as any father would, any good father would, it isn’t warranted. I happened to be watching television when this fellow from the National Enquirer was being quoted, "We saw John Ramsey going into a *advertiser censored* shop a week after his daughter was murdered. We have that as a fact". That is a fraudulent lie, unless they call the 7-11 store a *advertiser censored* shop. Which is how a tabloid justifies their statements.
SCOTT: Those were proven to be lies? There’s no record of your going to buy *advertiser censored* films or rent them?
JOHN: I would stake my life on that.

From PMPT – page 476 of B&N nook book. An interview with David Mills from the film he and Michael Tracey were making for broadcast in Britain.
He (JR) admitted that he had once visited a pornographic bookshop, though not in Boulder.

 

[Nom de plume]

:bump: Came across this post of DeeDee249's, and thought it deserved to be highlighted again. It sums up very quickly, using the available evidence, how we might look at this case and accept that in order to arrive at a theory that has no holes, this was a crime in which it was most likely both parents, IMO, would have to know it was sexually based. They would have to take great measures to point as far away as they could from the three R's who were alive on the morning of December 26, which ended up being a success for the R's to this day.

I have no doubt JB was being molested within her family, and I suspect there were others within the R circle who had been involved at times. Until very recently, I have been able to give Patsy a total pass, but there is just too much evidence, along with the released GJ findings, which makes it hard for me to continue to do.

IMO, at the very least, PR was enabling JB to be victimized within her immediate circle. I do believe, though, that JR was most closely associated with the molestation of his daughter. And after forcing myself to read both of the Ramsey books, I am even more convinced.

One thing the books do, IMO, is provide a permanent "pass" for Burke, and can assist him throughout his life in trying to recover from his own life in the hell-hole. Granted, both of the R's propagandized their daughter's death and solicited sympathy for themselves, but bottom line of their stories places them both in a position of innocence and suffering that allows Burke the option of believing his parents might have some redemptive qualities, which releases him from being genetic damaged goods - at least in his own mind.

If you have read the Ramsey works, and believe the R's are guilty, then there can be no doubt that both JR and PR had mental/emotional incapacity, to say the least. JR reveals his religious and social maladjustment going back to his youth. Make no mistake, John Ramsey is very intelligent, clever and confident man. But his "other side" - the one he keeps mostly to himself, is the one, IMO, that makes him tick-tock.

IMO, he is a master at subterfuge, and there are clear incidences related in his book that divulge this. His goal in life has been to appear worldly successful, a model of logical and reasonable actions which depict him being the "poster father" within a well-adjusted, well-respected family. He will do and does do whatever he feels it will take to continue to present this portrait. He has to, because he cannot accept for himself who the real JR is. IMO, the real JR is a sexual deviant, incapable of a real relationship with anyone, least of all himself.

He is a man who has convinced himself that he has received the gift of grace from God only because he was subjected to enough "unfair" things in life to teach him that it's through suffering you truly come to understand your need for Christ. Any true Christian knows that while often it is great pain that brings some to Christ, there are plenty of Christians who glory in the gift of grace that brings them a life of blessings - those who consider life's trials completely surmountable because they know the Lord, and don't accept that they must suffer unduly just to drive home the point.

Sorry this posting is getting so long. This thread is about who abused/molested JB - and IMO, it rightly has JR in the lead, but also includes other options that I believe are possible. I want to end this with something JR wrote in TOSOS because, IMO, it is bottom line proof of how ill he really is, and that there was a connection to both Beth and JB that is beyond what I consider to be the norm for most fathers:

from Chapter 12, titled "All Things for Good?" with a subtitle quote; God judged it better to bring good out of evil than to suffer no evil to exist. --
St. Augustine

"For a while after Beth's death, I couldn't bring myself to sleep in a bed. I felt I should honor her by the act of discomfort and sleep on the floor. For weeks, I lay on the floor beside the bed, my face in my hands, my heart aching. When JonBenet was murdered, I hit the floor again. Sleep wouldn't come, and when it did, it was fitful. I refused to sleep in the comfort of a bed. Making myself comfortable just didn't seem right."

:clap: :clap: Very well stated MM!! and exactly correct!

 

[Nom de plume]

One good JR quote deserves another!
From the 700 club (700 Club is the flagship news talk show of the Christian Broadcasting) published on acandyrose
JOHN: They are lies, that is all I could say. First of all, I loved my daughters. I had 3 wonderful daughters. I would give my life for them. But I wish the killer would have taken me that night instead of JonBenet. To accuse me of doing anything but protecting my daughter as any father would, any good father would, it isn’t warranted. I happened to be watching television when this fellow from the National Enquirer was being quoted, "We saw John Ramsey going into a *advertiser censored* shop a week after his daughter was murdered. We have that as a fact". That is a fraudulent lie, unless they call the 7-11 store a *advertiser censored* shop. Which is how a tabloid justifies their statements.
SCOTT: Those were proven to be lies? There’s no record of your going to buy *advertiser censored* films or rent them?
JOHN: I would stake my life on that.

From PMPT – page 476 of B&N nook book. An interview with David Mills from the film he and Michael Tracey were making for broadcast in Britain.
He (JR) admitted that he had once visited a pornographic bookshop, though not in Boulder.

Yes, another great quote Quest! A leapord might try to hide his spots, but he will never truly change them!!

 

[UKGuy]

:bump: Came across this post of DeeDee249's, and thought it deserved to be highlighted again. It sums up very quickly, using the available evidence, how we might look at this case and accept that in order to arrive at a theory that has no holes, this was a crime in which it was most likely both parents, IMO, would have to know it was sexually based. They would have to take great measures to point as far away as they could from the three R's who were alive on the morning of December 26, which ended up being a success for the R's to this day.

I have no doubt JB was being molested within her family, and I suspect there were others within the R circle who had been involved at times. Until very recently, I have been able to give Patsy a total pass, but there is just too much evidence, along with the released GJ findings, which makes it hard for me to continue to do.

IMO, at the very least, PR was enabling JB to be victimized within her immediate circle. I do believe, though, that JR was most closely associated with the molestation of his daughter. And after forcing myself to read both of the Ramsey books, I am even more convinced.

One thing the books do, IMO, is provide a permanent "pass" for Burke, and can assist him throughout his life in trying to recover from his own life in the hell-hole. Granted, both of the R's propagandized their daughter's death and solicited sympathy for themselves, but bottom line of their stories places them both in a position of innocence and suffering that allows Burke the option of believing his parents might have some redemptive qualities, which releases him from being genetic damaged goods - at least in his own mind.

If you have read the Ramsey works, and believe the R's are guilty, then there can be no doubt that both JR and PR had mental/emotional incapacity, to say the least. JR reveals his religious and social maladjustment going back to his youth. Make no mistake, John Ramsey is very intelligent, clever and confident man. But his "other side" - the one he keeps mostly to himself, is the one, IMO, that makes him tick-tock.

IMO, he is a master at subterfuge, and there are clear incidences related in his book that divulge this. His goal in life has been to appear worldly successful, a model of logical and reasonable actions which depict him being the "poster father" within a well-adjusted, well-respected family. He will do and does do whatever he feels it will take to continue to present this portrait. He has to, because he cannot accept for himself who the real JR is. IMO, the real JR is a sexual deviant, incapable of a real relationship with anyone, least of all himself.

He is a man who has convinced himself that he has received the gift of grace from God only because he was subjected to enough "unfair" things in life to teach him that it's through suffering you truly come to understand your need for Christ. Any true Christian knows that while often it is great pain that brings some to Christ, there are plenty of Christians who glory in the gift of grace that brings them a life of blessings - those who consider life's trials completely surmountable because they know the Lord, and don't accept that they must suffer unduly just to drive home the point.

Sorry this posting is getting so long. This thread is about who abused/molested JB - and IMO, it rightly has JR in the lead, but also includes other options that I believe are possible. I want to end this with something JR wrote in TOSOS because, IMO, it is bottom line proof of how ill he really is, and that there was a connection to both Beth and JB that is beyond what I consider to be the norm for most fathers:

from Chapter 12, titled "All Things for Good?" with a subtitle quote; God judged it better to bring good out of evil than to suffer no evil to exist. --
St. Augustine

"For a while after Beth's death, I couldn't bring myself to sleep in a bed. I felt I should honor her by the act of discomfort and sleep on the floor. For weeks, I lay on the floor beside the bed, my face in my hands, my heart aching. When JonBenet was murdered, I hit the floor again. Sleep wouldn't come, and when it did, it was fitful. I refused to sleep in the comfort of a bed. Making myself comfortable just didn't seem right."

midwest mama,

Sorry this posting is getting so long.

Not at all. Love your long posts. Well written and thoughtful.

He is a man who has convinced himself that he has received the gift of grace from God only because he was subjected to enough "unfair" things in life to teach him that it's through suffering you truly come to understand your need for Christ. Any true Christian knows that while often it is great pain that brings some to Christ, there are plenty of Christians who glory in the gift of grace that brings them a life of blessings - those who consider life's trials completely surmountable because they know the Lord, and don't accept that they must suffer unduly just to drive home the point.

Absolutely. From his posturing you can tell JR is a part-time Christian with little comprehension of the subject. Just what you might expect from a neophyte.

Grace in its old testament rendering was gift or favor from God. As in Noah being saved etc. Also includes people according grace to others as in, giving to the poor, assisting a friend in need, etc. i.e. a spontaneous impulse, not something rational as described by JR.

I suspect JR is faking suffering, and using the theological trappings of the idea to personalise himself.

That he promotes such ideas must surely suggest some kind of personality disorder. I leave it to the psychologists to analyse this aspect.

from Chapter 12, titled "All Things for Good?" with a subtitle quote; God judged it better to bring good out of evil than to suffer no evil to exist. --
St. Augustine

"For a while after Beth's death, I couldn't bring myself to sleep in a bed. I felt I should honor her by the act of discomfort and sleep on the floor. For weeks, I lay on the floor beside the bed, my face in my hands, my heart aching. When JonBenet was murdered, I hit the floor again. Sleep wouldn't come, and when it did, it was fitful. I refused to sleep in the comfort of a bed. Making myself comfortable just didn't seem right."

mmm, very, very telling quote. I'll pass on St. Augustine's plaigarism of Plato and pagan philosophy to underpin his Catholic theology.

The link to grace with this quote is that of the individual vs God i.e. self-determination against divine grace. Augustine managed to have the individualistic interpretation banned by the Council of Carthage in 417.

I think on a Freudian level JR is telling us he felt so guilty regarding the abuse of both daughters, some form of repentance was required?

So he conjures up his understanding of grace etc?

One thing the books do, IMO, is provide a permanent "pass" for Burke,

Maybe, but this does not mean he did not abuse or injure JonBenet on the 25th December 1996.

BR grows up in a dysfunctional family, where the father is allegedly molesting the daughter and the mother is taking her regularly to pageants.

You have already cited the psychological affect all this has had on BR, so why could he not have acted out, naively, on December 25th 1996, with unpredicatable consequences, leaving his parents to cover it all up. Precisely because they were so involved with the prior chronic abuse?


.

 

[Nom de plume]

midwest mama,


Not at all. Love your long posts. Well written and thoughtful.


Absolutely. From his posturing you can tell JR is a part-time Christian with little comprehension of the subject. Just what you might expect from a neophyte.

Grace in its old testament rendering was gift or favor from God. As in Noah being saved etc. Also includes people according grace to others as in, giving to the poor, assisting a friend in need, etc. i.e. a spontaneous impulse, not something rational as described by JR.

I suspect JR is faking suffering, and using the theological trappings of the idea to personalise himself.

That he promotes such ideas must surely suggest some kind of personality disorder. I leave it to the psychologists to analyse this aspect.




mmm, very, very telling quote. I'll pass on St. Augustine's plaigarism of Plato and pagan philosophy to underpin his Catholic theology.

The link to grace with this quote is that of the individual vs God i.e. self-determination against divine grace. Augustine managed to have the individualistic interpretation banned by the Council of Carthage in 417.

I think on a Freudian level JR is telling us he felt so guilty regarding the abuse of both daughters, some form of repentance was required?

So he conjures up his understanding of grace etc?



Maybe, but this does not mean he did not abuse or injure JonBenet on the 25th December 1996.

BR grows up in a dysfunctional family, where the father is allegedly molesting the daughter and the mother is taking her regularly to pageants.

You have already cited the psychological affect all this has had on BR, so why could he not have acted out, naively, on December 25th 1996, with unpredicatable consequences, leaving his parents to cover it all up. Precisely because they were so involved with the prior chronic abuse?


.

BBM Sorry UK, sometimes "The Pond" prevents a good translation from UK English to US English. Could you please explain the BBM? "His" who? JR's? He wasn't Catholic. St. Augustine? Plato?

 

[UKGuy]

BBM Sorry UK, sometimes "The Pond" prevents a good translation from UK English to US English. Could you please explain the BBM? "His" who? JR's? He wasn't Catholic. St. Augustine? Plato?

Nom de plume,
Sure. I forgot that there are distinct theological distinctions in the interpretation of grace, but this is to distinguish each religion, usually protestant, from the Catholic presentation. They all flow back to the original translation of the old testament in Greek.

St. Augustine? Plato?

St. Augustine and learned friends ripped of the classics to pad out Christianity, so any comment on grace by St. Augustine might be suspect.

Knowing all of the above allows you to decide whether JR is being forthright on the subject.


.
.

 

[midwest mama]

UK Guy - In response to your reference to BR - his possible involvement with JB just before she was killed........

Given BR was a part of the R domestic travesty, it is very possible he did not know that behaviors of his with JB which would be considered abnormal by healthy psychological standards, would ever lead to such disaster.

But, if he had been allowed to view incest was an acceptable standard for their own immediate family, as long as it was always kept a secret from outside social circles, then there would be little chance of him having to demonstrate enough rage against JB to cause the head bash or a strangulation if we assume the rage was to "shut her up". He shouldn't have had to worry about that, if the family was used to dealing with their episodes.

It is not impossible that Burke was involved with JB that night. But I do not believe he was the one who tied that hand-fashioned ligature around JB's neck and strangled the final life from her.

By Burke being given a "pass", what I meant to say is that the R's, with their books being so intently focused on the intruder theory, and yet their own "telling" statements about their lives, we are expected to look completely away from any possibility of Burke being involved in her ultimate death that night. And less pressure from the public looking at Burke eases his ability to try to move forward in life without him having the added burden of trying to offer proof of his non-involvement.

 

[CorallaroC]

UK Guy - In response to your reference to BR - his possible involvement with JB just before she was killed........

Given BR was a part of the R domestic travesty, it is very possible he did not know that behaviors of his with JB which would be considered abnormal by healthy psychological standards, would ever lead to such disaster.

But, if he had been allowed to view incest was an acceptable standard for their own immediate family, as long as it was always kept a secret from outside social circles, then there would be little chance of him having to demonstrate enough rage against JB to cause the head bash or a strangulation if we assume the rage was to "shut her up". He shouldn't have had to worry about that, if the family was used to dealing with their episodes.

It is not impossible that Burke was involved with JB that night. But I do not believe he was the one who tied that hand-fashioned ligature around JB's neck and strangled the final life from her.

By Burke being given a "pass", what I meant to say is that the R's, with their books being so intently focused on the intruder theory, and yet their own "telling" statements about their lives, we are expected to look completely away from any possibility of Burke being involved in her ultimate death that night. And less pressure from the public looking at Burke eases his ability to try to move forward in life without him having the added burden of trying to offer proof of his non-involvement.

MidwestMama, I always enjoy reading your posts, and others here too, TY. Ya'll have such excellent reasoning. After reading Kolar's book last fall, I admit this case haunts me more than it ever did.

This is difficult for me to write about - hope I can word it well. Long time ago I gave up wondering if the head-blow was meant to "shut her up" (for similar reasons you postulate). It then leaves me thinking about the real (and horrific) possibility of what could have happened IF the rope had started out as a game, something went terribly wrong and caused her body to do uncontrollable things that frightened someone into grabbing something to give a blow to the head in sheer panic to make it stop, end the suffering if it was already clearly horrible. Ugly thought, I know, wish I could get it out of my mind.

 

[midwest mama]

MidwestMama, I always enjoy reading your posts, and others here too, TY. Ya'll have such excellent reasoning. After reading Kolar's book last fall, I admit this case haunts me more than it ever did.

This is difficult for me to write about - hope I can word it well. Long time ago I gave up wondering if the head-blow was meant to "shut her up" (for similar reasons you postulate). It then leaves me thinking about the real (and horrific) possibility of what could have happened IF the rope had started out as a game, something went terribly wrong and caused her body to do uncontrollable things that frightened someone into grabbing something to give a blow to the head in sheer panic to make it stop, end the suffering if it was already clearly horrible. Ugly thought, I know, wish I could get it out of my mind.

Thank you - and yes, we do have some very insightful posters here on this forum. Most everyone here is avid about hoping that one day there is a public answer for the death of such a lovely little girl. It isn't easy to accept that someone (or more) has been able to elude an arrest. Especially when it seems like there are some very credentialed and intelligent people who have worked tirelessly on this case.

Your description of the final moments of JB's death fits with the coroner's report, and has also been supported by some expert opinions, because of the small amount of blood measured from the head blow. If it happened as you surmise, there would have been a great deal of panic on the part of the person dealing it, but would have also had to be a great amount of strength. It is said that adrenalin does give extra strength and ability when a sense of fear and panic sets in, so that might explain why such a hard blow happened.

It's the fact that JB's death WAS so ugly that makes it remain in the hearts and minds of people who care and want to bring it to justifiable closure. I can focus clearly on JonBenet as having been taken immediately to the side of the Lord, where her ethereal glow will forever be a radiance of joy to many other loved ones of so many of us. The moments she spent in passing have long given way to eternal peace for JonBenet. I hope you can replace the idea of her death act with a vision of her beauty in eternity.

 

[CorallaroC]

Thank you - and yes, we do have some very insightful posters here on this forum. Most everyone here is avid about hoping that one day there is a public answer for the death of such a lovely little girl. It isn't easy to accept that someone (or more) has been able to elude an arrest. Especially when it seems like there are some very credentialed and intelligent people who have worked tirelessly on this case.

Your description of the final moments of JB's death fits with the coroner's report, and has also been supported by some expert opinions, because of the small amount of blood measured from the head blow. If it happened as you surmise, there would have been a great deal of panic on the part of the person dealing it, but would have also had to be a great amount of strength. It is said that adrenalin does give extra strength and ability when a sense of fear and panic sets in, so that might explain why such a hard blow happened.

It's the fact that JB's death WAS so ugly that makes it remain in the hearts and minds of people who care and want to bring it to justifiable closure. I can focus clearly on JonBenet as having been taken immediately to the side of the Lord, where her ethereal glow will forever be a radiance of joy to many other loved ones of so many of us. The moments she spent in passing have long given way to eternal peace for JonBenet. I hope you can replace the idea of her death act with a vision of her beauty in eternity.

(BBM)
Thank you MM, well said, esp. last paragraph helps much.

 

[UKGuy]

UK Guy - In response to your reference to BR - his possible involvement with JB just before she was killed........

Given BR was a part of the R domestic travesty, it is very possible he did not know that behaviors of his with JB which would be considered abnormal by healthy psychological standards, would ever lead to such disaster.

But, if he had been allowed to view incest was an acceptable standard for their own immediate family, as long as it was always kept a secret from outside social circles, then there would be little chance of him having to demonstrate enough rage against JB to cause the head bash or a strangulation if we assume the rage was to "shut her up". He shouldn't have had to worry about that, if the family was used to dealing with their episodes.

It is not impossible that Burke was involved with JB that night. But I do not believe he was the one who tied that hand-fashioned ligature around JB's neck and strangled the final life from her.

By Burke being given a "pass", what I meant to say is that the R's, with their books being so intently focused on the intruder theory, and yet their own "telling" statements about their lives, we are expected to look completely away from any possibility of Burke being involved in her ultimate death that night. And less pressure from the public looking at Burke eases his ability to try to move forward in life without him having the added burden of trying to offer proof of his non-involvement.

midwest mama,
I understand. I do not think BR ligature asphyxiated JonBenet either. There is the outside possibility that PR was abusing both BR and JonBenet resulting in their dysfunctional behaviour? Check this article out:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/a...ut-twin-sons-reveal-victims-sexual-abuse.html

If it is JDI or PDI why was BR ever involved, with one child dead, why expose the remaining child to involvement, where is the percenatge?

.

 

[questfortrue]

UK Guy - In response to your reference to BR - his possible involvement with JB just before she was killed........

Given BR was a part of the R domestic travesty, it is very possible he did not know that behaviors of his with JB which would be considered abnormal by healthy psychological standards, would ever lead to such disaster.

But, if he had been allowed to view incest was an acceptable standard for their own immediate family, as long as it was always kept a secret from outside social circles, then there would be little chance of him having to demonstrate enough rage against JB to cause the head bash or a strangulation if we assume the rage was to "shut her up". He shouldn't have had to worry about that, if the family was used to dealing with their episodes.

It is not impossible that Burke was involved with JB that night. But I do not believe he was the one who tied that hand-fashioned ligature around JB's neck and strangled the final life from her.

By Burke being given a "pass", what I meant to say is that the R's, with their books being so intently focused on the intruder theory, and yet their own "telling" statements about their lives, we are expected to look completely away from any possibility of Burke being involved in her ultimate death that night. And less pressure from the public looking at Burke eases his ability to try to move forward in life without him having the added burden of trying to offer proof of his non-involvement.

MM, the head bash actually leads me away from BR, for the reasons you’ve recapped, even though he was the one in the household who had tantrums: If BDI, it seems like it would be a rage assault, not combined with sexual experimentation. As you say, the household would be accustomed to their skirmishes and while he might strike her, it wasn’t to shut her up, it would be because he was enraged. But she was assaulted that night, and cleaned up of blood. Guess this is where Kolars SBP theory leads in.

A while back poster txsvicki wrote in regards JB: Would a child be flirty and too friendly if another young child was abusing her? It would seem most likely to happen if a child were being groomed and molested by an adult. Being made to feel “special” by an adult.

UKGuy,
Interesting, though very disturbing, article. I’d always thought of the females in a household of molestation as enablers. The Jaycee Dugard and the Elizabeth Smart stories show the cooperation and assistance of the wives. This news clipping tells of a female depravity I’d never considered. But to the topic at hand, like others I’ve thought BR showed signs of some kind of abuse. Whether BR’s abuse was molestation, or simply having been on the receiving end of someone else’s demons, is unknown. Unless BR someday writes a book. I don’t look for that book to arrive before JR’s passing.

 

[CorallaroC]

UKGuy, thanks for the link <above> about the abused twins Alex & Marcus. Their story is very tragic/stunning, to say the least. I'm thinking of ordering their book "Tell Me Who I Am: Sometimes It's Safer Not To Know" - amazon has it on kindle. It sounds like both twins have managed to finally reclaim their lives, especially since their mother passed away. Although it's sad to think it was nearly impossible for them to do so before reaching their 30's. Sad to think how much of their lives were, um, stolen in a way. And not just due to Alex's amnesia.

 

[UKGuy]

UKGuy, thanks for the link <above> about the abused twins Alex & Marcus. Their story is very tragic/stunning, to say the least. I'm thinking of ordering their book "Tell Me Who I Am: Sometimes It's Safer Not To Know" - amazon has it on kindle. It sounds like both twins have managed to finally reclaim their lives, especially since their mother passed away. Although it's sad to think it was nearly impossible for them to do so before reaching their 30's. Sad to think how much of their lives were, um, stolen in a way. And not just due to Alex's amnesia.

CorallaroC,
Glad to assist. Thought I might post the link so we can all digest the possibility that PR was the main instigator?

Although I think BDI explains the forensic evidence better. Notice that bit in the article where the mother dropped a twin off at some persons house knowing full well he would be abused. I thought about JonBenet here.

The story has a good outcome with the twins reconciled with their past and living, on the surface, happy married lives.


.

 

[CorallaroC]

CorallaroC,
Glad to assist. Thought I might post the link so we can all digest the possibility that PR was the main instigator?

Although I think BDI explains the forensic evidence better. Notice that bit in the article where the mother dropped a twin off at some persons house knowing full well he would be abused. I thought about JonBenet here.

The story has a good outcome with the twins reconciled with their past and living, on the surface, happy married lives.


.

Interestingly, several aspects of the "twin's story" are eerily similar, imo:

massive family wealth & prestige
flamboyant, dramatic, debutante at center stage within the family
a mother obsessed with creating an "image"
(albeit completely opposite by pretending to be poor)
a previous sudden tragic death of a family member by car accident
a penchant for interesting/artistic family photographs

Remember when former Miss America, Marilyn VanDerbur, began speaking out about her own childhood sexual abuse? It generated a lot of discussions pertaining to this case, but I do not recall much talk about the harsh reality of the "cycle of abuse". It's called that for a reason.

With that said, this subject does bring to mind some rumors/hearsay in this case. Persons claiming to recall being shocked by extremely bawdy behavior & remarks by aunts and grandmother. IIRC one example was an inappropriate comment about BR's "privates" made in front of several people at a gathering.

Clarity starts to emerge when we consider there may not be much difference between an "enabler" and a "perpetrator", regardless of which form of abuse.

~~~

 

[CorallaroC]

PS to UKGuy, re: the twins

Looking at the pics in the article, I felt slightly disturbed by the resemblance between Marcus' bride and the mother in her younger years, imho. This isn't the first time, I have seen it in other cases too, when an abuse victim (or perp) chooses a look-alike mate. My guess it is a deeply rooted mechanism of the unconscious mind - because they seem oblivious to the fact that others can see it. Odd.

Here is the link again, for reference
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/a...ut-twin-sons-reveal-victims-sexual-abuse.html

 

[chlban]

Well, who indeed? I have to confess that as long as I have been a firm RDI-which is coming up ono 17 years of course- I have managed to avoid this subject. I tend to PDI, clinging to the Steve Thomas theory or a close variation of it. However, based on what I have read today about the release of the indictment it appears the sexual assault will have to be front and center whether I like it or not.

I find myself now thinking it was Burke, but then why would both John and Patsy be charged with child abuse?

Maybe it's some weird hang up I have, but I have never really embraced the idea that JR was sexually abusing JR. Certainly not out of any respect for the man, it is likely my own hang up. I am not sure why this is so difficult for me to accept when I could always accept that Patsy was crazy/angry enough to crack here "beloved" daughters head open.

Maybe because as awful as the head crack is, it could still be fundamentally accidental? But abusing a 6 year old child? Nothing accidental about that is there?

Unless it was actually Burke. Then it wouldn't be "accidental" but somehow more acceptable than her own father. So, maybe acceptable isn't the right word, but less heinous becuase he was a child.

But again, that doesn't explain why both P and J would be charged with child abuse?

I have a feeling this awful case is going to get even worse if JR is not successfull in blockig this release.

The only thing I can hope for is that everyone will finally see him for the monster he just may prove to be.

 

[midwest mama]

Well, who indeed? I have to confess that as long as I have been a firm RDI-which is coming up ono 17 years of course- I have managed to avoid this subject. I tend to PDI, clinging to the Steve Thomas theory or a close variation of it. However, based on what I have read today about the release of the indictment it appears the sexual assault will have to be front and center whether I like it or not.

I find myself now thinking it was Burke, but then why would both John and Patsy be charged with child abuse?

Maybe it's some weird hang up I have, but I have never really embraced the idea that JR was sexually abusing JR. Certainly not out of any respect for the man, it is likely my own hang up. I am not sure why this is so difficult for me to accept when I could always accept that Patsy was crazy/angry enough to crack here "beloved" daughters head open.

Maybe because as awful as the head crack is, it could still be fundamentally accidental? But abusing a 6 year old child? Nothing accidental about that is there?

Unless it was actually Burke. Then it wouldn't be "accidental" but somehow more acceptable than her own father. So, maybe acceptable isn't the right word, but less heinous becuase he was a child.

But again, that doesn't explain why both P and J would be charged with child abuse?

I have a feeling this awful case is going to get even worse if JR is not successfull in blockig this release.

The only thing I can hope for is that everyone will finally see him for the monster he just may prove to be.

:goodpost: I have a feeling Mr. Ramsey now looks more like this: :gasp: than the smiling suave Christian gentleman he usually presents to the public.

 

[Linda7NJ]

I'm just dying to know something we don't already know!!!!

I have the feeling I will be no closer to solving it in my own mind.

I'm forever a RDI... Just unable to narrow it any further.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk - now Free