Who molested/abused Jonbenet?

[Nom de plume]

Are you thinking Glen (Susan's husband) or Doug (the son, Burke's friend)?

GS...Glen Stine. Not to say that Doug couldn't have "played Dr" with her and Burke too. I just have a feeling Glen might have been one of several abusing her.

:moo:

 

[Darlene733510]

I remember when they were questioned about the pictures of JB found in the basement. Why did we never hear what the pictures were? If they were just ordinary pictures, we would have heard. We're the pictures taken by one of her molesters, or of a sexual nature?
It's not unusual to have pictures of JB, but why hide them in a folder in the basement, and then nobody seems to know anything about them or why they were there.

 

[midwest mama]

I remember when they were questioned about the pictures of JB found in the basement. Why did we never hear what the pictures were? If they were just ordinary pictures, we would have heard. We're the pictures taken by one of her molesters, or of a sexual nature?
It's not unusual to have pictures of JB, but why hide them in a folder in the basement, and then nobody seems to know anything about them or why they were there.

A statement from this site:
http://educate-yourself.org/cn/jonbentramseysatanicritual.shtml

"Search warrants also turned up nude photos of the Ramsey children - and not baby pictures."

 

[otg]

A statement from this site:
http://educate-yourself.org/cn/jonbentramseysatanicritual.shtml

"Search warrants also turned up nude photos of the Ramsey children - and not baby pictures."

Please, mwmm, don't count on anything from that site being worthy of quoting here as even remotely significant. It is riddled with falsehoods and speculation presented as fact.

Example (for anyone who doesn't want to have to read the whole thing):

(38) Both Patsy and her sister were CIA sex slaves, 'turned over' to the (CIA) by their Father and programmed via a major trauma-based mind-control program known as MKultra.
MK Ultra programmed multiples are often used as assassins, information carriers or 'mules', sex slaves or to perform various other tasks for the Illuminati.​

Many children are programmed to serve as sex slaves for pedophile politicians and heads of State (Johnny Gosch, Alex Constantine, Cathy O'Brien whose claims include, and many state verified, that George Bush Sr. molested her and her daughter while strung out on heroin - curiously, Bush Sr. was a regular at many of Larry King's, the International Banker, parties in Franklin, and that she was gang-banged by the Bennett Brothers, William, 'finger-wagging Book of Virtues' writer and former commander of our phony drug war, Dick Cheny, Hillary Clinton and Robert Bird - Patsy and sister Pam were certainly two of these 'slaves', servicing many politicians and high-ranking industrialists, in constant demand because of their beauty, re-programmed several years after they each won their respective pageants to 'forget the whole thing', something their behavior latter on in life clearly shows they did not.​

Really?

 

[midwest mama]

Please, mwmm, don't count on anything from that site being worthy of quoting here as even remotely significant. It is riddled with falsehoods and speculation presented as fact.

Example (for anyone who doesn't want to have to read the whole thing):

Really?

I have great respect for your opinions, otg. There is so much info out there to pick through when trying to find answers to the "why's and what for's of this case". It should be very carefully considered, for sure, and I certainly do not want to believe a lot of it. I hope one day this case will blow wide open and all of us will have more answers, but until then, I can't close my eyes to any possibilities.

President Clinton taught me all about discounting one opinion in favor of another one when he looked straight at the camera and stated to all who were watching in this country, and maybe some others: "I did not have sexual relations with that woman". I wanted to believe that too, but alas, it later became all too clear that I could not.

While I cannot disagree with you that there may be things on that site that lack credibility, I must also think that there may be things on that site that do have credibility. So, when you ask, Really?, I must reply, Possibly!

P.S. What do you think about the discourse in the police interview with JR about the possibility of dumbells in JB's room? I understand they are sometimes used during pageant training to 'sculpt' leg and arm muscles.
Possibility of them being considered as a weapon?

 

[questfortrue]

Hi UKGUY - I just posted on another section here that JR was shown JB's bedroom pictures, and he did notice the pillow, which was at the foot of the bed. And he thought it unusual that it was there. I have been reading the old stuff, and find a lot of unusual things. From what I read there is a lot we don't know because LS or MK would ask a question about something and not mention what was on the picture that was shown to JR, and I couldn't tell what the item was by the answer he gave. From all the reading I did I know one thing: The R's were ready to pin the murder on everything but the kitchen sink!

Assuredly this has been previously mentioned, but a woman who was a secretary at Access Graphics took a lie detector test which she passed, (Info on ACR) The purpose of the test was to swear to a phone call she had received. In the phone call, a woman claimed: "JR was molesting JB and PR accidently hit JB trying to hit JR." This phone call took place in January 1997. Then there was also the dictionary dog-earred to point to the word “incest”. Someone was definitely trying to get someone to notice something!
In the autobiographical book by Marilyn Van Derbur Atler she claimed that when she finally confronted her father as an adult about the incest she endured and what it did to her, he went upstairs and got a gun. He told her that if she had approached him in any other way, in a challenging angry way, there would have been a couple of people who ended up dead. Incest is that much a huge family shame if it ever comes out. If JR did molest JB, I’d credit him with doing anything on earth to hide it and protect his reputation as a Christian family man who loves his children.
I’m aware that the only motive for a cover up which Kolar thinks plausible is BDI. A cover-up to spare BR is also rational. But when I read the list of people hired by JR, it read like a list of who’s who in the legal defense community, the investigator community, and the public relations circle. It was so way over the top that you’d of thought he was escalating troops for a major war. If what the caller said was the truth and not just wild speculation, wouldn’t there be motive for both to cover up this crime? And wouldn’t that hire of folks by JR correlate to saving not just BR, but also themselves. MHO.

 

[UKGuy]

I remember when they were questioned about the pictures of JB found in the basement. Why did we never hear what the pictures were? If they were just ordinary pictures, we would have heard. We're the pictures taken by one of her molesters, or of a sexual nature?
It's not unusual to have pictures of JB, but why hide them in a folder in the basement, and then nobody seems to know anything about them or why they were there.

Darlene733510,
Whatever the nature of the pictures. The police searched all the Ramsey properties for similar images and sealed the results.

Either they were dumped into the basement because they link a particular Ramsey with JonBenet, or another Ramsey was using the basement to contain a collection of JonBenet pictures?

With Patsy exclaiming ignorance about the pictures, this is just another one of those threads in the JonBenet Case where you think Patsy was colluding with or is the killer of JonBenet?

How about BR collecting those pictures, did James Kolar address this subject?


.

 

[UKGuy]

Assuredly this has been previously mentioned, but a woman who was a secretary at Access Graphics took a lie detector test which she passed, (Info on ACR) The purpose of the test was to swear to a phone call she had received. In the phone call, a woman claimed: "JR was molesting JB and PR accidently hit JB trying to hit JR." This phone call took place in January 1997. Then there was also the dictionary dog-earred to point to the word “incest”. Someone was definitely trying to get someone to notice something!
In the autobiographical book by Marilyn Van Derbur Atler she claimed that when she finally confronted her father as an adult about the incest she endured and what it did to her, he went upstairs and got a gun. He told her that if she had approached him in any other way, in a challenging angry way, there would have been a couple of people who ended up dead. Incest is that much a huge family shame if it ever comes out. If JR did molest JB, I’d credit him with doing anything on earth to hide it and protect his reputation as a Christian family man who loves his children.
I’m aware that the only motive for a cover up which Kolar thinks plausible is BDI. A cover-up to spare BR is also rational. But when I read the list of people hired by JR, it read like a list of who’s who in the legal defense community, the investigator community, and the public relations circle. It was so way over the top that you’d of thought he was escalating troops for a major war. If what the caller said was the truth and not just wild speculation, wouldn’t there be motive for both to cover up this crime? And wouldn’t that hire of folks by JR correlate to saving not just BR, but also themselves. MHO.

questfortrue,
There was an acute sexual assault and evidence cited of chronic sexual abuse.

So there was prima facie a motive available, we know the means, i.e. head bash and ligature asphyxiation, and the MO was a staged crime-scene.

Just considering probability alone, it appears to be the responsibility of a male. Which for me reduces the suspects to two.

At this point you can apply your favorite theory, i.e. BDI or JDI.

My interpretation of the evidence is that JonBenet was accidentally placed in a coma, whilst simultaneously being molested. Most likely as a result of the molester attempting to silence JonBenet. Possibly another family member approached the primary crime-scene alarming the molester?

The rest is all staging which suggests there might be three crime-scenes, or two minimum that have been staged?

That is the primary crime-scene where JonBenet was molested, another secondary crime-scene to accomodate the head bash injury, and finally the wine-cellar which includes the ligature *advertiser censored* paintbrush asphyxation, some of which is staging.

This explains why her barbie nightgown was found in the wine-cellar, i.e. it was probably used to stage a bedtime sexual assault and accompanying head injury?


.

 

[Darlene733510]

UKGUY - I have thought about that too, especially since BR and his friends played down in the basement. If everything that was sealed could be reexamined, I bet there would be a lot of eye openers about this sham of an investigation.
I have a very strong feeling that PR spoke about this before she died, but we will never know. I am really on the verge of deciding that 2 parents would protect a child until death, and now the boy has grown into a man, he has the burden of deep secrets and haunting memories. Years will not erase the hideous murder of his sister, and that horrible night will appear to him in his dreams.

 

[UKGuy]

UKGUY - I have thought about that too, especially since BR and his friends played down in the basement. If everything that was sealed could be reexamined, I bet there would be a lot of eye openers about this sham of an investigation.
I have a very strong feeling that PR spoke about this before she died, but we will never know. I am really on the verge of deciding that 2 parents would protect a child until death, and now the boy has grown into a man, he has the burden of deep secrets and haunting memories. Years will not erase the hideous murder of his sister, and that horrible night will appear to him in his dreams.

Darlene733510,
Sure BR played some role in the death of JonBenet, even if it was only to cover for his parents by faking being asleep and repeating the Ramsey version of events. Also it appears James Kolar considers BR's behaviour might extend well beyond assisting his parents. Notably BR refused to answer any Cold Case questions.


.

 

[Darlene733510]

I remember that a brick was taken as evidence. I doubt it was used for the head bash, but I guess it could be considered. If it came from the house, I wonder why it was there, and if it was found outside, most likely any evidence found on it would have disappeared.
There was a long list of evidence items taken, and I am wondering how many of them were tested. Weirdest of all was the scarf in the coffin with her body. That absolutely makes no sense to me.
JR made a comment when he was talking about Beth's death. He said that she practically raised him. What on earth did he mean by that? I could see someone saying this about a sister or an aunt, but not a daughter.

 

[wengr]

And JR wasted no time, making "inside job" comments very soon after JB's body was "found". Pretty rapid actions of deflection.

Was JR asked to explain this comment at any time later?
Like inside what? The house? The family? The business?
I guess the common presumption is that he means someone who knows them, maybe with a key (LHP?). But was he ever asked to elaborate, and what was the response?

 

[Darlene733510]

wengr- on 4/30/97 ST interviewed JR..ST asked JF what he meant when he said it was an inside job. JR mentioned the cleaning lady, and that she had a key, and that she went to the house and worked sometimes when they weren't t there. He also mentioned about when she asked Parsy to lend her money.
Then he mentioned the window and the suitcase and how an intruder could enter that way.
He mentioned contractors, and people who had been hired to do work for them.
When ST asked JR if he would be willing to take a polygraph, JR told him he would be insulted because people knew what upstanding citizens they were.

 

[DeeDee249]

wengr- on 4/30/97 ST interviewed JR..ST asked JF what he meant when he said it was an inside job. JR mentioned the cleaning lady, and that she had a key, and that she went to the house and worked sometimes when they weren't t there. He also mentioned about when she asked Parsy to lend her money.
Then he mentioned the window and the suitcase and how an intruder could enter that way.
He mentioned contractors, and people who had been hired to do work for them.
When ST asked JR if he would be willing to take a polygraph, JR told him he would be insulted because people knew what upstanding citizens they were.

That is exactly why they got away with it. How many people STILL think that "upstanding citizens" could never commit crimes like this. The TRUTH is that ANY upstanding citizen would JUMP to take a polygraph test- not just to prove they are innocent, but to HELP the investigation.
JR had this little "speech" all prepared. They planned exactly what to say and who to try to pin this on. LHP was at the top of their list, IMO. She was an easy target. INNOCENT parents just discovering the gruesome dead body of their murdered, strangled daughter would be so distraught they would never even be thinking of who to blame at that point (as far as naming names). That would be the kind of thing that would be discussed as you are HELPING police try to piece together what may have happened. This is especially true if you have a ransom note claiming to be from a small foreign faction. Just the little bit we know about LHP- she'd never have authored a note like that.

 

[Darlene733510]

Hi DeeDee - as I was going back and reading, I could hardly believe all the people they thru under the bus. The reading refreshed my mind about how JR said the BPD were trying to lynch them. Then he said they would spend 24 hours a day to find out who murdered JB.
He also said they would love not to have attorneys because they depleted his life savings, BUT he regretfully says they are necessary. What a crock of bull!!!
JR said he usually made his side of the bed every day, but he didn't do ir on the 25th and
26th. What was that all about??? Did one side of the bed look like it wasn't slept in?
He was also asked why there was no toilet paper hanger in JB's bathroom, and why there was a BM left in the bowl. JR said the kids were not good about flushing. Yuck!!!
They really threw FW under the bus, and JR also mentioned that PW was jealous of PR, and lots of things, which probably added her to the suspect list.
As he questioned JR you could almost tell that LS was jumping on the R bandwagon..No wonder he played out that intruder went in the basement window scene.

 

[madeleine]

That is exactly why they got away with it. How many people STILL think that "upstanding citizens" could never commit crimes like this. The TRUTH is that ANY upstanding citizen would JUMP to take a polygraph test- not just to prove they are innocent, but to HELP the investigation.
JR had this little "speech" all prepared. They planned exactly what to say and who to try to pin this on. LHP was at the top of their list, IMO. She was an easy target. INNOCENT parents just discovering the gruesome dead body of their murdered, strangled daughter would be so distraught they would never even be thinking of who to blame at that point (as far as naming names). That would be the kind of thing that would be discussed as you are HELPING police try to piece together what may have happened. This is especially true if you have a ransom note claiming to be from a small foreign faction. Just the little bit we know about LHP- she'd never have authored a note like that.

The RN obviously targeted JR...even HE said this was probably an inside job when he "found" Jonbenet....a real innocent person would have gone straight to police quarters to tell them EVERYTHING about his enemies,his business,etc...from the RN it's obvious that the killer KNOWS JR,right?how come does he think then it was a stranger,a pedo?how on earth can you sleep at night if you know that you KNOW that person?but no,according to JR it was SOME MONSTER....how convenient...and ridiculous...everything coming out of his mouth...stinks.....

 

[otg]

(respectufully snipped):

While I cannot disagree with you that there may be things on that site that lack credibility, I must also think that there may be things on that site that do have credibility. So, when you ask, Really?, I must reply, Possibly!

I apologize, mwmm, if I seemed to jump on you about that post. You are right that we must consider any possibilities. But I've seen how quoted speculation and opinion sometimes gets repeated, and then becomes an accepted as a fact, and then no one can remember where it came from. That reference to "nude photos of the Ramsey children - and not baby pictures" is not something that should be stated without the caveat that it is (at least) unconfirmed or (more likely) purely wild speculation. Were such pictures actually found, I can’t help but think there would have been some charges filed. I know we’ve all speculated about the nature of the photo (or photos) found in the basement that the R’s were questioned about. But that’s not quite the same as the crap that’s posted all over the site you linked. The “Really?” I asked was in reference to the quote I copied from the site about “CIA sex slaves” -- not your post.

P.S. What do you think about the discourse in the police interview with JR about the possibility of dumbells in JB's room? I understand they are sometimes used during pageant training to 'sculpt' leg and arm muscles.
Possibility of them being considered as a weapon?

I hadn't actually considered the dumbbells as the possible weapon until recently when someone else mentioned it. I haven't ruled it out because, depending on the exact size (width and diameter of the weight) and how it is constructed (one-piece, or a bar with replaceable weights) it would be hard to say. I wish I knew the exact details.

Another thing worth mentioning as a possibility... Because of what I've found out recently about the required diameter of the cylindrical object, the bar used for attaching different weight sizes is a distinct possibility. (The diameter of the cylinder was much smaller than I had previously thought.)

 

[Darlene733510]

As I read about the pictures, it was not clear at all what was on them. Even when presenting them to JR, it was like,"Have you ever seen these pictures that were in a folder in the basement?" Then when JR replied he gave no indication either. He said they kept pictures in a drawer in the study, and had no idea how they got in the basement. When he was questioned about things,he was not sure of,he usually said to ask PR, because she would know. He did not do that when the pictures were presented. They're are probably in the sealed info, or something that AH just didn't feel he should investigate.

 

[UKGuy]

As I read about the pictures, it was not clear at all what was on them. Even when presenting them to JR, it was like,"Have you ever seen these pictures that were in a folder in the basement?" Then when JR replied he gave no indication either. He said they kept pictures in a drawer in the study, and had no idea how they got in the basement. When he was questioned about things,he was not sure of,he usually said to ask PR, because she would know. He did not do that when the pictures were presented. They're are probably in the sealed info, or something that AH just didn't feel he should investigate.

Darlene733510,
Understanding those pictures is a clue to what is going on. Its like the size-12's they offer a perspective that the R's version of events does not.

The aspect to focus on is that the subject of the pictures was JonBenet! Someone had, lets suggest, an unhealthy interest in JonBenet extending to a collection of photographs.

So with the death of JonBenet someone decided to dump their collection of photographs in the basement.

This might suggest more than one person was engaged in the molestation of JonBenet?


.

 

[midwest mama]

As I read about the pictures, it was not clear at all what was on them. Even when presenting them to JR, it was like,"Have you ever seen these pictures that were in a folder in the basement?" Then when JR replied he gave no indication either. He said they kept pictures in a drawer in the study, and had no idea how they got in the basement. When he was questioned about things,he was not sure of,he usually said to ask PR, because she would know. He did not do that when the pictures were presented. They're are probably in the sealed info, or something that AH just didn't feel he should investigate.

Now this is an interesting tidbit of info that I did not know! Especially since "the study" was also referred to as "John's study", IIRC. And, with more photos published of Patsy with the kids than of John with the kids, I would suspect that John did a lot of the photography.