Who molested/abused Jonbenet?
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Where did you see or read that the degraded DNA on the size twelves was John Ramsey's?
Linda7NJ
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You really must look at everything available. It would also help to read the books that have been written. Especially if you hope to render any sort of psychological opinion. You're scenario IMO does not fit the known facts.
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Chelly
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BBM Agreed! This is a sordid, complex and fascinating case. There is a huge cast of characters, lots of unusual behavior, lots of evidence and behavioral clues. For those who are new to it, background reading is an absolute requirement.
LinasK
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I think Burke is intimidated by John and he will not talk for fear of him until John is no longer a threat. I'm a JDI.
midwest mama
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It almost has to be fear/intimadation, unless Burke really has a total mental block, which I know can happen. But him not being willing to help with adult interviews recently makes me discount a mental block issue.
I also think JB was victimized prior to her death by other family members and maybe even Ramsey "realm" associates.
That's what I think, that JB was probably molested by a family member or friend of the family, and that the parents covered it up.
ADoyle
This is what I also think. Except there may have been more than one friend of the family molesting JonBenet.
Its this that might have maintained the silence over the years?
.
Meara
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Related to Estelle's observation that JR is a control freak (very likely) and LinasK's theory that BR is intimidated by JR, I've always been struck by the fact that two of JR's closest friends had a history of domestic violence. Jay Elowsky was one. He was also arrested for threatening people with a baseball bat when he thought they were reporters stalking the Ramseys. Pasta Jay was not only a close friend but also JR's business partner in Pasta Jay's.
Another such friend was Dr. Donald Stevens. Here's the write-up from the Blueprint for Murder website:
Fraternity brother of John Ramsey at Michigan State, they had been friends for 30 years. A University of Colorado executive, he is married to former Lt. Governor of Colorado Gail Schoettler, who lost her bid for governor on the Democratic ticket in the November 1998 election. Stevens has a history of domestic violence and has used the Haddon, Foreman & Morgan law firm in dealing with his legal problems in this area.
I haven't found any allegations that JR was physically abusive to either wife, but he did cheat on Lucinda and afterwards made himself out to be the victim of an obsessed, threatening woman. For two bloody years, John?
What sort of man cheats for two years, absolves himself of responsibility, keeps as close, long term friends men with histories of domestic violence, and ends up with his molested, fatally bludgeoned and strangled daughter in his basement?
When JR was asked by BPD who his and Patsy's close friends were, he named people who attended their church and whose children played with JBR and BR. Elowsky and Stevens were not mentioned, IIRC. They were JR's close friends, not friends of J and P as a couple, even though they lived with Elowsky for six weeks after the murder. I wonder whether all of this hints at two different sides of JR - a nice guy, public side, and a hidden shadow side - well acquainted with lies, deception, a sense of entitlement, and friends who violently abused their partners. I don't know whether he was JBR's abuser or killer, but it wouldn't be a complete surprise if he were.
Another such friend was Dr. Donald Stevens. Here's the write-up from the Blueprint for Murder website:
Fraternity brother of John Ramsey at Michigan State, they had been friends for 30 years. A University of Colorado executive, he is married to former Lt. Governor of Colorado Gail Schoettler, who lost her bid for governor on the Democratic ticket in the November 1998 election. Stevens has a history of domestic violence and has used the Haddon, Foreman & Morgan law firm in dealing with his legal problems in this area.
I haven't found any allegations that JR was physically abusive to either wife, but he did cheat on Lucinda and afterwards made himself out to be the victim of an obsessed, threatening woman. For two bloody years, John?
What sort of man cheats for two years, absolves himself of responsibility, keeps as close, long term friends men with histories of domestic violence, and ends up with his molested, fatally bludgeoned and strangled daughter in his basement?
When JR was asked by BPD who his and Patsy's close friends were, he named people who attended their church and whose children played with JBR and BR. Elowsky and Stevens were not mentioned, IIRC. They were JR's close friends, not friends of J and P as a couple, even though they lived with Elowsky for six weeks after the murder. I wonder whether all of this hints at two different sides of JR - a nice guy, public side, and a hidden shadow side - well acquainted with lies, deception, a sense of entitlement, and friends who violently abused their partners. I don't know whether he was JBR's abuser or killer, but it wouldn't be a complete surprise if he were.
gramcracker
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PETER BOYLES: How long did you work for John and Patsy Ramsey?
LINDA WILCOX: Approximately 2 1/2 years. I left September 4, 1995.
PETER BOYLES: You contacted me after the Boulder Police contacted you. You've spoken with them, now it's been 20 months. Why did you call me and why did you want to have this meeting?
LINDA WILCOX: One, I keep hearing a lot of little things, misconceptions, that I wanted to clear up. The other, I personally have a very hard time with the Ramseys going on national television, blatantly lying and not having anyone speak up to contradict what they are saying.
PETER BOYLES: An example?
LINDA WILCOX: An example, when John Ramsey says to the camera, I didn't know she wet the bed, or not very much. I happen to know myself, he walked upstairs, she had wet her bed, I came in on a Monday morning and he said, "Could you change her bed? She's wet it again." The thing that strikes me as odd, I knew her between 2 1/2 and 4. During that time, she did wet the bed but it wasn't chronic. It was every now and then. Early on, I mean 2 1/2 year olds always do, I mean it seems like they always have accidents. But, it got progressively worse. I would think that a 6 year old would wet the bed less than a 4 year old or a 2 year old. It actually got worse, it was moderate, she didn't have rubber sheets at that point, a pull-up would hold it. But her and Burke both wet the bed. Burke was 7 years old and he also wet the bed. I didn't think it was odd at the time, because it sometimes runs in families and it's more common in boys. And, their parents were lazy.
PETER BOYLES: Is it true you have knowledge of her bedwetting, prior to her death?
LINDA WILCOX: Prior to her death? Well, she did it for the 2 1/2 years I was there.
PETER BOYLES: Do you have any knowledge of her bedwetting just prior to her death, perhaps the weekend before her death?
LINDA WILCOX: No.
PETER BOYLES: You told me in another conversation, I don't want to put words in your mouth, that JonBenet took a bottle really late in life.
LINDA WILCOX: She was in Nursery School. She was about 3 1/2 or 4. Suzanne, the nanny, was trying to break her from the bottle. It was, she turned 4 that august and that summer she pretty much broken from it. But, she was 3 years old, she was going to nursery school and she... Suzanne used to threaten that she was going to tell her nursery school friends that she was still using a bottlle to get her to stop because she was way too old to be using one. Um, she wasn't a good sleeper. She didn't sleep well and John, in particular, would get frustrated with her trying to get her to bed and he would put her to bed with a bottle and a video.
PETER BOYLES: You told me a story about John Ramsey coming over and turning off the vacuum while you were cleaning the house. Tell the audience that story.
LINDA WILCOX: Okay, first and foremost, the major...Patsy's major job was to make sure nobody annoyed John. One of the things that really annoyed him was lots of noises, you know, (couldn't understand) noises, things like that. One day, I was there, it was during the summer, so Patsy and the kids were in Michigan, it was the summer of '95, probably June or July, I was in the master bedroom, upstairs, on the 3rd floor, vacuuming the floor, which was my job. I was finishing up. John Ramsey had come in during that time, probably through the garage, went up the stairs, turned off the vacuum, turned around and walked away.
PETER BOYLES: He didn't say anything to you?
LINDA WILCOX: Not a word.
PETER BOYLES: Just turned it off and walked away?
LINDA WILCOX: The look on his face said it all.
PETER BOYLES: What were you doing, other than your job?
LINDA WILCOX: Nothing, I was vacuuming the floor.
PETER BOYLES: And he came over, turned off the vac, didn't say anything to you and walked away.
LINDA WILCOX: Right. He didn't like the sound of the vacuum.
[snipped]
PETER BOYLES: What was the relationship, to the best of your knowledge, it's my understanding that the Ramseys would speak in front of anyone about anything because the help was seen as part of the furniture? First of all, is that fair? And second of all, what do you think their relationship was like?
LINDA WILCOX: That's a relatively fair assessment, some were closer than others like the nanny for instance was a little closer. But, as far as I was concerned, I was furniture. The relationship was amiable and polite for the most part. It was a business relationship. They didn't..they weren't affectionate, they didn't act like a married couple, if I had seen them anywhere else, I would have assumed they were business associates. That's pretty much how it was. She was like his secretary, not his wife.
[snipped]
PETER BOYLES: What was your reaction when you heard that little girl had been brutally murdered?
LINDA WILCOX: My reaction might have been a little bit different. I was out of state. I had attended my grandmother's funeral that very afternoon. I was staying at my mom's home out of state. My honey, from back here, called me, on the phone. He doesn't keep up with my personal business life and he thought I still worked for them. Because he called and said, 'When do you work for the Ramseys?' I said, 'The Ramseys?' and he said, 'Yeah, John and Patsy.' And I said, 'I haven't been there in a year and a half.' And he said, well someone has murdered JonBenet and it was just instant shock. Just at that moment, my mother had turned on the television, she has cable, and her local news came on and they showed the picture of the house. And I'm like, Oh my God, something is really bad and I said, 'Do they know who did it?' and he said, "well no" and was telling me a bit of what he knew. This was on the 27th. Because that's when he got ahold of me. I was travelling on the 26th and he (couldn't understand). My initial reaction was, a stranger didn't kill that child.
PETER BOYLES: Why did you think that?
LINDA WILCOX: Gut feeling more than anything. But even now, more than then, I would (something) on everything I have that a stranger did not kill JonBenet. The lay of the house doesn't...it would be very difficult. Possibly, there are people who are professional. But then they would have done a professional job. Lots of little things contribute to my belief. Someone who didn't know that house, really well, couldn't have done what they done (sic) without being noticed. It's not possible. It is physically impossible. You had to know little things. Like for example, you walk in the room and hit the switch, the light doesn't come on. See, cause when the room was redone, they put in a ceiling fan, one of the metal ones, without a light kit on it. The only light in her room was the lamp between the two beds. You have to physically walk over and turn it on. It isn't run by the switch. The switch was meant to run the overhead ceiling light which was removed to install the ceiling fan.
[snipped]
Like, JonBenet, for example. She got no affection at all when she was little except maybe from their nanny. Until she started to perform or produce, she was basically ignored. At one point, John was complaining because he had to get her dressed one morning because Suzanne had been out of town. He couldn't find any clothes that matched. The reason was, she was wearing cast-offs from Burke because she didn't have any clothes of her own.
[snipped]
PETER BOYLES: Can you remember any specific questions they asked you about the Ramseys?
LINDA WILCOX: They asked me about the bedwetting. They asked me if I knew that those children wet the bed and I said, yes. And they asked me if that seemed unusual and I said well, no. About the bedwetting and John saying he didn't know. If someone is there once a week cleaning and knew, how could a parent not know?
PETER BOYLES: You have said on a number of occasions that there were a lot of unhappy people, a lot of unhappy kids in that house. Talk about that as we come to the end of this.
LINDA WILCOX: Um, the thing that struck me weird about the house, it seemed really odd to me that she seemed like the only person who had any kind of joy. You know, to smile or show any exuberance was JonBenet. Nedra didn't particularly like Boulder. She always talked about their house in Atlanta and what Patsy had done to it and she talked about the south all the time and how Boulder was so backward. And Patsy was yeah, okay with it but things weren't exactly great and she had the cancer and the adversity. She was consumed with the cancer thing after that. Everything revolved around it. And then, Burke, his friends were his world. He kind of lived in his own world. Basically he had this whole group of friends and they had sleepovers. JonBenet never had sleepovers. She slept at her friend's houses occasionally but it was never reciprocated. I thought that was kind of odd. Daphne White...
PETER BOYLES: The daughter of Fleet and Priscilla
LINDA WILCOX: Yeah, she had been to the house a few times and she was a cool little kid. But, she never slept over which I thought was odd. Because usually little girls take turns. JonBenet was the only happy person in that house. She was a ray of sunshine. She was totally adorable. She really was a pretty little thing.
PETER BOYLES: Tell us about the window that keeps coming up
LINDA WILCOX: I'm not certain of this one, I'm maybe 40% sure of this because I wasn't in that room all that much. The grate. First of all, if you were going to break into the house that isn't where you would do it, you'd do it in the side door to the garage. If you move that grate and go down into that window, first of all, you're going down into a very dark room. Underneath was bookshelves just full of stuff. And, just below that was this big basket with this huge Easter Bunny in it. I mean that room, it was cluttered, it was crowded, and it was dark. Not an ideal place to take anything in or out. But also, I had cleaned those windows on more than one occasion in the basement. To my memory, although this is going back, the window opened inward, towards you. It had a little latch at the top and it opened toward you. When they did the PTL tour of the house, it opened different. I'm not sure when it was changed. It could have been changed a long time before or a day before. I'm almost certain they changed the way that window opened.
PETER BOYLES: And finally, some insight into Nedra Paugh, when John Ramsey would go to work.
LINDA WILCOX: Actually, Nedra was a hoot. I really loved her. She was just a cool lady. I can remember a lot of times, I'd be there just as John was leaving. He'd just be leaving and I would walk in to the kitchen and set my caddy down. One of Nedra's favorite phrases was, "John Ramsey go earn that money!"
[more at link]
http://thewebsafe.tripod.com/07211998lindawilcoxon-pb.htm
LINDA WILCOX: Approximately 2 1/2 years. I left September 4, 1995.
PETER BOYLES: You contacted me after the Boulder Police contacted you. You've spoken with them, now it's been 20 months. Why did you call me and why did you want to have this meeting?
LINDA WILCOX: One, I keep hearing a lot of little things, misconceptions, that I wanted to clear up. The other, I personally have a very hard time with the Ramseys going on national television, blatantly lying and not having anyone speak up to contradict what they are saying.
PETER BOYLES: An example?
LINDA WILCOX: An example, when John Ramsey says to the camera, I didn't know she wet the bed, or not very much. I happen to know myself, he walked upstairs, she had wet her bed, I came in on a Monday morning and he said, "Could you change her bed? She's wet it again." The thing that strikes me as odd, I knew her between 2 1/2 and 4. During that time, she did wet the bed but it wasn't chronic. It was every now and then. Early on, I mean 2 1/2 year olds always do, I mean it seems like they always have accidents. But, it got progressively worse. I would think that a 6 year old would wet the bed less than a 4 year old or a 2 year old. It actually got worse, it was moderate, she didn't have rubber sheets at that point, a pull-up would hold it. But her and Burke both wet the bed. Burke was 7 years old and he also wet the bed. I didn't think it was odd at the time, because it sometimes runs in families and it's more common in boys. And, their parents were lazy.
PETER BOYLES: Is it true you have knowledge of her bedwetting, prior to her death?
LINDA WILCOX: Prior to her death? Well, she did it for the 2 1/2 years I was there.
PETER BOYLES: Do you have any knowledge of her bedwetting just prior to her death, perhaps the weekend before her death?
LINDA WILCOX: No.
PETER BOYLES: You told me in another conversation, I don't want to put words in your mouth, that JonBenet took a bottle really late in life.
LINDA WILCOX: She was in Nursery School. She was about 3 1/2 or 4. Suzanne, the nanny, was trying to break her from the bottle. It was, she turned 4 that august and that summer she pretty much broken from it. But, she was 3 years old, she was going to nursery school and she... Suzanne used to threaten that she was going to tell her nursery school friends that she was still using a bottlle to get her to stop because she was way too old to be using one. Um, she wasn't a good sleeper. She didn't sleep well and John, in particular, would get frustrated with her trying to get her to bed and he would put her to bed with a bottle and a video.
PETER BOYLES: You told me a story about John Ramsey coming over and turning off the vacuum while you were cleaning the house. Tell the audience that story.
LINDA WILCOX: Okay, first and foremost, the major...Patsy's major job was to make sure nobody annoyed John. One of the things that really annoyed him was lots of noises, you know, (couldn't understand) noises, things like that. One day, I was there, it was during the summer, so Patsy and the kids were in Michigan, it was the summer of '95, probably June or July, I was in the master bedroom, upstairs, on the 3rd floor, vacuuming the floor, which was my job. I was finishing up. John Ramsey had come in during that time, probably through the garage, went up the stairs, turned off the vacuum, turned around and walked away.
PETER BOYLES: He didn't say anything to you?
LINDA WILCOX: Not a word.
PETER BOYLES: Just turned it off and walked away?
LINDA WILCOX: The look on his face said it all.
PETER BOYLES: What were you doing, other than your job?
LINDA WILCOX: Nothing, I was vacuuming the floor.
PETER BOYLES: And he came over, turned off the vac, didn't say anything to you and walked away.
LINDA WILCOX: Right. He didn't like the sound of the vacuum.
[snipped]
PETER BOYLES: What was the relationship, to the best of your knowledge, it's my understanding that the Ramseys would speak in front of anyone about anything because the help was seen as part of the furniture? First of all, is that fair? And second of all, what do you think their relationship was like?
LINDA WILCOX: That's a relatively fair assessment, some were closer than others like the nanny for instance was a little closer. But, as far as I was concerned, I was furniture. The relationship was amiable and polite for the most part. It was a business relationship. They didn't..they weren't affectionate, they didn't act like a married couple, if I had seen them anywhere else, I would have assumed they were business associates. That's pretty much how it was. She was like his secretary, not his wife.
[snipped]
PETER BOYLES: What was your reaction when you heard that little girl had been brutally murdered?
LINDA WILCOX: My reaction might have been a little bit different. I was out of state. I had attended my grandmother's funeral that very afternoon. I was staying at my mom's home out of state. My honey, from back here, called me, on the phone. He doesn't keep up with my personal business life and he thought I still worked for them. Because he called and said, 'When do you work for the Ramseys?' I said, 'The Ramseys?' and he said, 'Yeah, John and Patsy.' And I said, 'I haven't been there in a year and a half.' And he said, well someone has murdered JonBenet and it was just instant shock. Just at that moment, my mother had turned on the television, she has cable, and her local news came on and they showed the picture of the house. And I'm like, Oh my God, something is really bad and I said, 'Do they know who did it?' and he said, "well no" and was telling me a bit of what he knew. This was on the 27th. Because that's when he got ahold of me. I was travelling on the 26th and he (couldn't understand). My initial reaction was, a stranger didn't kill that child.
PETER BOYLES: Why did you think that?
LINDA WILCOX: Gut feeling more than anything. But even now, more than then, I would (something) on everything I have that a stranger did not kill JonBenet. The lay of the house doesn't...it would be very difficult. Possibly, there are people who are professional. But then they would have done a professional job. Lots of little things contribute to my belief. Someone who didn't know that house, really well, couldn't have done what they done (sic) without being noticed. It's not possible. It is physically impossible. You had to know little things. Like for example, you walk in the room and hit the switch, the light doesn't come on. See, cause when the room was redone, they put in a ceiling fan, one of the metal ones, without a light kit on it. The only light in her room was the lamp between the two beds. You have to physically walk over and turn it on. It isn't run by the switch. The switch was meant to run the overhead ceiling light which was removed to install the ceiling fan.
[snipped]
Like, JonBenet, for example. She got no affection at all when she was little except maybe from their nanny. Until she started to perform or produce, she was basically ignored. At one point, John was complaining because he had to get her dressed one morning because Suzanne had been out of town. He couldn't find any clothes that matched. The reason was, she was wearing cast-offs from Burke because she didn't have any clothes of her own.
[snipped]
PETER BOYLES: Can you remember any specific questions they asked you about the Ramseys?
LINDA WILCOX: They asked me about the bedwetting. They asked me if I knew that those children wet the bed and I said, yes. And they asked me if that seemed unusual and I said well, no. About the bedwetting and John saying he didn't know. If someone is there once a week cleaning and knew, how could a parent not know?
PETER BOYLES: You have said on a number of occasions that there were a lot of unhappy people, a lot of unhappy kids in that house. Talk about that as we come to the end of this.
LINDA WILCOX: Um, the thing that struck me weird about the house, it seemed really odd to me that she seemed like the only person who had any kind of joy. You know, to smile or show any exuberance was JonBenet. Nedra didn't particularly like Boulder. She always talked about their house in Atlanta and what Patsy had done to it and she talked about the south all the time and how Boulder was so backward. And Patsy was yeah, okay with it but things weren't exactly great and she had the cancer and the adversity. She was consumed with the cancer thing after that. Everything revolved around it. And then, Burke, his friends were his world. He kind of lived in his own world. Basically he had this whole group of friends and they had sleepovers. JonBenet never had sleepovers. She slept at her friend's houses occasionally but it was never reciprocated. I thought that was kind of odd. Daphne White...
PETER BOYLES: The daughter of Fleet and Priscilla
LINDA WILCOX: Yeah, she had been to the house a few times and she was a cool little kid. But, she never slept over which I thought was odd. Because usually little girls take turns. JonBenet was the only happy person in that house. She was a ray of sunshine. She was totally adorable. She really was a pretty little thing.
PETER BOYLES: Tell us about the window that keeps coming up
LINDA WILCOX: I'm not certain of this one, I'm maybe 40% sure of this because I wasn't in that room all that much. The grate. First of all, if you were going to break into the house that isn't where you would do it, you'd do it in the side door to the garage. If you move that grate and go down into that window, first of all, you're going down into a very dark room. Underneath was bookshelves just full of stuff. And, just below that was this big basket with this huge Easter Bunny in it. I mean that room, it was cluttered, it was crowded, and it was dark. Not an ideal place to take anything in or out. But also, I had cleaned those windows on more than one occasion in the basement. To my memory, although this is going back, the window opened inward, towards you. It had a little latch at the top and it opened toward you. When they did the PTL tour of the house, it opened different. I'm not sure when it was changed. It could have been changed a long time before or a day before. I'm almost certain they changed the way that window opened.
PETER BOYLES: And finally, some insight into Nedra Paugh, when John Ramsey would go to work.
LINDA WILCOX: Actually, Nedra was a hoot. I really loved her. She was just a cool lady. I can remember a lot of times, I'd be there just as John was leaving. He'd just be leaving and I would walk in to the kitchen and set my caddy down. One of Nedra's favorite phrases was, "John Ramsey go earn that money!"
[more at link]
http://thewebsafe.tripod.com/07211998lindawilcoxon-pb.htm
questfortrue
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Recently viewed an old interview with Barbara Walters and the R’s. One of the questions pertained to why they were trying to leave for Atlanta so soon after the discovery of JB’s body. JR’s claim is that the police were “making” them leave the house and since Atlanta was their “real” home, they wanted to just be back in their home in Georgia near family and friends. (Actually, he told the LE that he had a business meeting.) But regarding the answer he gave Walters, JR does not acknowledge for a minute, that moving to a location many states away right after the discovery of one’s deceased child, might seem strange to others. They have an explanation for it, so they can claim it’s not “odd.” JR does not grasp that others would see this action as extraordinary.
There are a few (many?) other “oddities,” in the way they explained things, but first a little background story. From a heartbreaking scene in Marilyn Van Derbur Atler’s memoir there's a story about her mother approaching her bedroom door, when her father was molesting her. For a moment Marilyn believes she will be rescued from abuse. But then her mother turns away. Her mother looked the other way for 13 years. Juxtapose that scene against what was happening to JB with the statement of PR to investigator TD:
PR describes in an interview with TD about teaching JB that no one was supposed to touch JB where her bathing suit touched her except for her mother and Dr. B when her mother was there. She spells it out further: “Not BR, not JR, not grampa”. Yet that message didn’t obviously get across to JB who asked anyone in the vicinity to help her wipe. She’d been touched there and thought it was ok. If she asked for anyone to help her wipe, I believe she did so innocently, as PR had undoubtedly scolded her about her poor wiping and associated it with her vaginal distress. PR goes into detail about her teaching to JB, a clue of negating the family secret. Also, I was mystified why she includes so many family males in this description of not allowing them to touch her where her bathing suit touches her. Wouldn’t most people talk about people outside the family? Is PR covering her butt here, I taught her not to allow the family to molest her, I’m not at fault?
Also, look at how she handles the questioning from investigator H during the interview regarding sexual abuse. Know not everyone will agree here, but her answers are short and very guarded. The questioning is stopped for a bit, and then PR asks for proof of this abuse. PR doesn’t give up a thing about it. If someone told me that my daughter had been abused at some time prior to her death, and I didn’t know, I would show a much more outraged response, not just ask for proof. Why would PR be guarded? Perhaps because, imo, she is guarding the family secret. And, as Marilyn discusses in her memoir, mothers can and do sometimes just look the other way. Jmho.
There are a few (many?) other “oddities,” in the way they explained things, but first a little background story. From a heartbreaking scene in Marilyn Van Derbur Atler’s memoir there's a story about her mother approaching her bedroom door, when her father was molesting her. For a moment Marilyn believes she will be rescued from abuse. But then her mother turns away. Her mother looked the other way for 13 years. Juxtapose that scene against what was happening to JB with the statement of PR to investigator TD:
PR describes in an interview with TD about teaching JB that no one was supposed to touch JB where her bathing suit touched her except for her mother and Dr. B when her mother was there. She spells it out further: “Not BR, not JR, not grampa”. Yet that message didn’t obviously get across to JB who asked anyone in the vicinity to help her wipe. She’d been touched there and thought it was ok. If she asked for anyone to help her wipe, I believe she did so innocently, as PR had undoubtedly scolded her about her poor wiping and associated it with her vaginal distress. PR goes into detail about her teaching to JB, a clue of negating the family secret. Also, I was mystified why she includes so many family males in this description of not allowing them to touch her where her bathing suit touches her. Wouldn’t most people talk about people outside the family? Is PR covering her butt here, I taught her not to allow the family to molest her, I’m not at fault?
Also, look at how she handles the questioning from investigator H during the interview regarding sexual abuse. Know not everyone will agree here, but her answers are short and very guarded. The questioning is stopped for a bit, and then PR asks for proof of this abuse. PR doesn’t give up a thing about it. If someone told me that my daughter had been abused at some time prior to her death, and I didn’t know, I would show a much more outraged response, not just ask for proof. Why would PR be guarded? Perhaps because, imo, she is guarding the family secret. And, as Marilyn discusses in her memoir, mothers can and do sometimes just look the other way. Jmho.
The fact that Patsy gives a defensive reaction instead of an outraged one upon having LE tell her of JB's molestation proves to me that she is hiding the fact that she KNOWS. She is protecting someone. Mothers who look the other way when their husband molests their child do not usually do the same when a sibling is the abuser, especially one so young. I am not suggesting BR was not an abuser- I think he was. And I do not think Patsy "allowed" it to continue as much as she tried to ignore it and hoped it would stop if she spoke to him about it. I think she may have had a conversation with Dr Beuf about it, too. And this is one of the reasons why I believe they asked (and got) that BOTH kids medical records be sealed.
I think Patsy's comments to JB about who was not to "touch her where her bathing suit touched her" included a list of males Patsy felt may have been or were inclined to do just that- "touch" her.
Many feel Patsy was abused by "Grandpa" herself. And Nedra looked the other way. When asked THIS question by LE, instead of the expected outrage and vehement denials, Patsy's voice got very small and childlike and all she said was a quiet "No".
I think Patsy's comments to JB about who was not to "touch her where her bathing suit touched her" included a list of males Patsy felt may have been or were inclined to do just that- "touch" her.
Many feel Patsy was abused by "Grandpa" herself. And Nedra looked the other way. When asked THIS question by LE, instead of the expected outrage and vehement denials, Patsy's voice got very small and childlike and all she said was a quiet "No".
I have never read that. You might be confusing it with a comment Nedra allegedly made to police that JB was "only a little bit molested". But there are many posters who do feel that Patsy and/or her sisters had been molested by their father.
Hello Sleuthers!
New here, and will admit that I have not yet read the books that are out on this case. Nonetheless, it has fascinated me ever since it happened. Always thought that something was/is very off with the parents. In doing some googling on this case, quite some time ago I came across some internet posts that with regard to this case, strongly suggested there is a very dangerous and active undercurrent of sexual deviancy / pedophelia that exists amongst certain circles of "higher society" in the Boulder area. Given the connections of JR and how some things went down in the days/weeks/months following JBR's murder, it certainly raises some questions in my mind.
Perhaps the discussed molestation that had apparently been going on for awhile prior to the fateful night of her death, was by persons known to JR and with his knowledge? It has been discussed in these forums that there was no sexual activity going on between JR and PR because of her illness. Perhaps JR became involved with this "underground world" because of his associations with certain persons and the state of his own sexual dissatisfaction? This very well could have been a case of a sexual game gone wrong, and then the steps had to be taken to cover it all up.
I have never bought that an intruder would take the time to clean up the body, nor that that person would spend that much time in the home writing the supposed RN. That all would take too much time in the house, which translates to a greater opportunity to be caught by other family members. I believe that both JR and PR were complicit in at least covering up the murder of JBR, perhaps something even more sinister. But I also believe that her murder was accidental, setting off the cover up and the entire chain of events that has followed since.
Anyone else hear any of these theories about underground activity by an elite crowd in that area? While it may smack of sensationalism and the kind of witch hunting that happened over child abuse in California in the 80s, we do also know that such things do really exist and that children are more at risk in this society than ever before.
Just some of my thoughts and opinions. I look forward to reading more on this case, as well as others, and exchanging information and theories with all of you who are researching this still fascinating case.
New here, and will admit that I have not yet read the books that are out on this case. Nonetheless, it has fascinated me ever since it happened. Always thought that something was/is very off with the parents. In doing some googling on this case, quite some time ago I came across some internet posts that with regard to this case, strongly suggested there is a very dangerous and active undercurrent of sexual deviancy / pedophelia that exists amongst certain circles of "higher society" in the Boulder area. Given the connections of JR and how some things went down in the days/weeks/months following JBR's murder, it certainly raises some questions in my mind.
Perhaps the discussed molestation that had apparently been going on for awhile prior to the fateful night of her death, was by persons known to JR and with his knowledge? It has been discussed in these forums that there was no sexual activity going on between JR and PR because of her illness. Perhaps JR became involved with this "underground world" because of his associations with certain persons and the state of his own sexual dissatisfaction? This very well could have been a case of a sexual game gone wrong, and then the steps had to be taken to cover it all up.
I have never bought that an intruder would take the time to clean up the body, nor that that person would spend that much time in the home writing the supposed RN. That all would take too much time in the house, which translates to a greater opportunity to be caught by other family members. I believe that both JR and PR were complicit in at least covering up the murder of JBR, perhaps something even more sinister. But I also believe that her murder was accidental, setting off the cover up and the entire chain of events that has followed since.
Anyone else hear any of these theories about underground activity by an elite crowd in that area? While it may smack of sensationalism and the kind of witch hunting that happened over child abuse in California in the 80s, we do also know that such things do really exist and that children are more at risk in this society than ever before.
Just some of my thoughts and opinions. I look forward to reading more on this case, as well as others, and exchanging information and theories with all of you who are researching this still fascinating case.
Meara
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Thanks, DeeDee. No, not confusing the two, just wondering whether there's a specific/concrete reason many posters feel that DP might have molested his daughters - a statement, a behavior noted, that sort of thing.
Venom
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ShadyLady
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And why did JR have photos of the daughter that died in his "bathroom"??? Odd? Or convenient?
Thank you Venom and ShadyLady.
I think there is much that suggests the R family was not your average family, by any stretch of the imagination. I think one can also argue that there are also plenty of hints that point to the R's being inwardly a dysfunctional family, and many questions arise about the true mental state of both JR & PR. They both seem to be damaged IMO. The relative disconnection of BR within the dynamic I think may be a clue. As to exactly what, I'm not sure. Maybe just the unspoken tension that would be present in a home where the mother is ill and reportedly obsessed with that illness, as well as being obsessed with the younger sister and as reported, having more of a business relationship with the father than a loving, caring marriage.
What was the deal with JR and the first daughter? Did he have his own obsession that grew more intense as his wife pulled away both physically and mentally? Interesting the comments about JBR being the only one displaying any happiness in the house/family......the innocence of a child or a child trying desperately to bring a sense of normalcy to an otherwise dysfunctional home?
I think there is much that suggests the R family was not your average family, by any stretch of the imagination. I think one can also argue that there are also plenty of hints that point to the R's being inwardly a dysfunctional family, and many questions arise about the true mental state of both JR & PR. They both seem to be damaged IMO. The relative disconnection of BR within the dynamic I think may be a clue. As to exactly what, I'm not sure. Maybe just the unspoken tension that would be present in a home where the mother is ill and reportedly obsessed with that illness, as well as being obsessed with the younger sister and as reported, having more of a business relationship with the father than a loving, caring marriage.
What was the deal with JR and the first daughter? Did he have his own obsession that grew more intense as his wife pulled away both physically and mentally? Interesting the comments about JBR being the only one displaying any happiness in the house/family......the innocence of a child or a child trying desperately to bring a sense of normalcy to an otherwise dysfunctional home?
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