Who molested/abused Jonbenet?

[DeeDee249]

Guys, I am not well versed in this case and I have a very basic question. I really hope I do not in turn spawn a tangential dispute, but I THINK the fact that this thread exists means I already kind of know my answer.

On another non-crime forum I am on, people were casually discussing this case and were very surprised when I mentioned JonBenet had shown signs of sexual abuse. So surprised they didn't believe me. This made me question what little I thought I knew about the case. So my question: aren't the signs of sexual abuse (or penetration of some sort) well documented? Is this still an item of contention in any way?

Yes, they are well-documented, but that does not stop IDI theorists from denying them or pretending they were not.
The FACTS are that during the autopsy, erosion of the hymen was found, as well as bruising and small amounts of blood were found IN the vagina. There was also some bruising on her labia as well as evidence that blood had been wiped from her pubic area and upper thighs. There were small drops of blood in the panty crotch. Her vaginal opening was much larger than normal for a girl of that age. NONE of this evidence is normal for a 6-year old girl. Bubble baths and urinary tract infections do NOT cause hymenal erosion or bruising. Bruising can only occur in a living person, so these are not post-mortem injuries. The coroner told two of the police present at the autopsy (Dets. Arndt and Trujillo) that he felt the injuries were the result of digital penetration. He did not write this in his report because he was not supposed to. The written report can only contain what he SEES and not what he THINKS about it.

 

[ArianeEmory]

Thank you! The details sound more extensive than I even realized. I think these persons on my other forum just really didn't know about the vaginal exam details. (I'm not sure I did before I joined WS.)

I cannot stress enough that I was not doing the "ask innocent seeming questions and then argue" troll thing and I appreciate the informational response, it's exactly what I was looking for.

 

[Anyhoo]

I don't know who sexually abused JB, but the fact that it did exist proves to me that there was a cover up to not expose it publicly. IMO her pediatrician and her mother could not have been unaware of this. To me this reveals something possibly darker about the murder, and the other people involved in it. It's like trying to understand a puzzle with some major pieces missing. This points somewhere else but no one knows where or who

 

[DeDee]

I will say here that I was the court-appointed supervisor years ago for supervised visitation for a mother who had sexually molested her two young children. I believe the root of her behavior was the sexual abuse she suffered herself as a child, her obsessive-compulsive nature, and thinking her children were literally an extension of her own body that she 'owned'. The memory of those visitations still gives me goosebumps.

OneLove, it appears that you have accurately described this crime victim's own mother.

This is a lengthy thread regarding who ravaged this victim that still remains mostly unread to me. However, there are a few observations.

First of all, unless we assume that the killer did it, we cannot know who molested JB prior to December 26, even when we discover who killed her, but we can look at what JonBenet's body tells us that may be related.

We never saw or learned of any evidence indicating that the white nylon cord was actually tied onto JB's left wrist; only the right wrist had a cord tied around the wrist on top of the shirt's sleeve. JR alters his recollection about finding the victim to later add that he fumbled to loosen the knot from JB's left wrist before taking her upstairs. Hence, the ligature maintained a loop too large for JB's wrist to keep it in place. FW may know whether JR did try to loosen the knot or not.

The victim had a scrape/abrasion on her upper left shoulder as well as on the lower back of her left leg. The duvet fibers on her white shirt were on the back of her right shoulder. A single "stun gun type" injury marks her right jawline.

There is red watery fluid in her vagina and staining the size 12s. There are red stains on the pillowcase that was near the foot of her bed. There are two small blood stains on the Barbie nightgown along with BR & PR tDNA. There is a bruise on the labia.

Urine stained the anterior of the longjohns and, by default, the size 12s. There were positive tests for urine from the stain on the carpet outside of the concrete hellhole.

Much has been written and discussed about the possible stun gun marks. Although at this point I am not certain what caused the marks, it is apparent that the same object was used to cause her injury, at least once before, as documented in the photograph revealing JB's leg with similar twin marks, that was taken when she modeled the red sundress without shoes and her little toenails had old red polish nearly worn off the nail.


The AR findings support prior sexual abuse as well as acute vaginal trauma from the night of her death. The twin marks shown in the old photo seemingly match with the "stun gun type" injuries at TOD.

 

[DeDee]

The size 12s mystery must be something Patsy was mighty proud of conceiving.

The purchases of the size 12s, the tape and cord have been linked to Patsy. <snip>

I just do not see the parents standing around going:

Oh, dear. BR has sent JoniB into a coma. Let's fake a COD by crushing her little skull. Oh, dear. She is still not dead. Then, let's place this little cord about her throat and strangle her. And add a little broken paintbrush handle to the end so everyone will think it is an exotic garrote. Since no reasonable parents would ever do this to their child, everyone will think it was a perverted intruder or else be so confused they will not know who did what to our precious daughter.

ATT, it is omo, that the paintbrush already had the nylon cord wrapped and tied around it prior to it being used in the basement, WC, hellhole.

As well, both of the paintbrush ends snapped off when pressure was applied at the center where the cord was tied, holding or suspending JBRs neck. The center, being where the cord dangled from the paintbrush that was held somehow, in place, where energy exerted until weakening the ends which broke off and as one end, the bristle end, of it landed, unobserved ATT, in the paint tote where it remained, undetected, until later observed as recorded by a LEO.

It was critical for PR to proclaim LHP moved the artist tote to the basement from its Butler's Kitchen location. The tip end of the broken paintbrush has never been discovered. The blue Samsonite suitcase was in that house somewhere. Located inside the luggage, was a blue duvet and sham set. The blue duvet/sham fibers were located on JBRs right shoulder of the white shirt where the skin abrasion was on her back right shoulder.

Where do fibers from JBRs white clothing appear at the CS?

OMO

 

[Anti-K]

OneLove, it appears that you have accurately described this crime victim's own mother.

This is a lengthy thread regarding who ravaged this victim that still remains mostly unread to me. However, there are a few observations.

First of all, unless we assume that the killer did it, we cannot know who molested JB prior to December 26, even when we discover who killed her, but we can look at what JonBenet's body tells us that may be related.

We never saw or learned of any evidence indicating that the white nylon cord was actually tied onto JB's left wrist; only the right wrist had a cord tied around the wrist on top of the shirt's sleeve. JR alters his recollection about finding the victim to later add that he fumbled to loosen the knot from JB's left wrist before taking her upstairs. Hence, the ligature maintained a loop too large for JB's wrist to keep it in place. FW may know whether JR did try to loosen the knot or not.

The victim had a scrape/abrasion on her upper left shoulder as well as on the lower back of her left leg. The duvet fibers on her white shirt were on the back of her right shoulder. A single "stun gun type" injury marks her right jawline.

There is red watery fluid in her vagina and staining the size 12s. There are red stains on the pillowcase that was near the foot of her bed. There are two small blood stains on the Barbie nightgown along with BR & PR tDNA. There is a bruise on the labia.

Urine stained the anterior of the longjohns and, by default, the size 12s. There were positive tests for urine from the stain on the carpet outside of the concrete hellhole.

Much has been written and discussed about the possible stun gun marks. Although at this point I am not certain what caused the marks, it is apparent that the same object was used to cause her injury, at least once before, as documented in the photograph revealing JB's leg with similar twin marks, that was taken when she modeled the red sundress without shoes and her little toenails had old red polish nearly worn off the nail.


The AR findings support prior sexual abuse as well as acute vaginal trauma from the night of her death. The twin marks shown in the old photo seemingly match with the "stun gun type" injuries at TOD.

A few objections/questions:

Above, you wrote, “...unless we assume that the killer did it, we cannot know who molested JB prior to December 26...”

We cannot assume the killer did it.

You also wrote, “JR alters his recollection about finding the victim to later add that he fumbled to loosen the knot...”

In the ’97 interview, Ramsey says that he, “tried to get it completely undone. So when [he] took her upstairs, it was still partially around her wrist.” This is altered from what other version?

You wrote that, “The duvet fibers on her white shirt were on the back of her right shoulder.”

1) The fibers are controversial in that the FBI report contradicts the CBI report; so, the fibers may not be from the duvet. If they did not come from the duvet, than they are unidentified and un-sourced.

2) Where is it stated that these fibers were on “her right shoulder?” Smit only describes them as being on the “outside of the shirt.”

And, you wrote, “There were positive tests for urine from the stain on the carpet...”

I would be interested in seeing a source for this claim. I’m not disputing it, and I think it is true, but, as far as I know, the urine stain on the basement floor was never actually tested.

Last, IMO, the marks on the victim’s legs are not injuries of any sort, and, as far as I know, it is only forum posters who consider them to be such.
...

AK

 

[Anti-K]

ATT, it is omo, that the paintbrush already had the nylon cord wrapped and tied around it prior to it being used in the basement, WC, hellhole.

As well, both of the paintbrush ends snapped off when pressure was applied at the center where the cord was tied, holding or suspending JBRs neck. The center, being where the cord dangled from the paintbrush that was held somehow, in place, where energy exerted until weakening the ends which broke off and as one end, the bristle end, of it landed, unobserved ATT, in the paint tote where it remained, undetected, until later observed as recorded by a LEO.

It was critical for PR to proclaim LHP moved the artist tote to the basement from its Butler's Kitchen location. The tip end of the broken paintbrush has never been discovered. The blue Samsonite suitcase was in that house somewhere. Located inside the luggage, was a blue duvet and sham set. The blue duvet/sham fibers were located on JBRs right shoulder of the white shirt where the skin abrasion was on her back right shoulder.

Where do fibers from JBRs white clothing appear at the CS?

OMO

Not to pick on you or anything, but...

The victim’s hair is entwined in the cord wrapped around the handle. This means that the paintbrush was not readied in advance.

There are shards from the paintbrush on the basement floor, and these shards tell us the approximate location where the breaking occurred. Consider this: the urine stain marks the victim’s location. If the killer sat on his victim so that he was facing the door to the WC, than the paint tote would be to his left and the shards would be to his right.

I’ve experimented a bit with breaking paintbrushes and I have some other, unrelated experience seeing sticks and such break under load and it seems to me that most often (always?) things break at one end only (the weak end). You might get some deformation at the opposite end, but once one end breaks that’s it – game over.
...

AK

 

[DeDee]

Edited my statement:

First of all, unless we assume that the killer performed the acute molestation, we cannot know who molested JB prior to December 26, even when we discover who killed her, but we can look at what JonBenet's body tells us that may be related.

I wrote:
JR alters his recollection about finding the victim to later add that he fumbled to loosen the knot from JB's left wrist before taking her upstairs.

There is information about the knots all over this forum. If you have evidence that refutes JR being near the wrist knots, post it. TIA IIRC, JR claims two attempts to loosen the wrist knots in an effort to remove them from binding his daughter. He stops himself the first time in the WC concrete room. This could be false. Maybe he piddled with the tape while FW was trying to catch up to him. But he does not offer this information about "untying" in the WC until in mid '97.

JR begins to untie the wrist knots while JBRs body is laying under or near the Christmas tree upstairs. LA ordered him to back away from the cords. I agree the wrist bindings were on both wrists as she was carried upstairs. JR loosened the L wrist cord and the R cord remain fairly tight around her wrist on top of her sleeves.

Where is it stated that these fibers were on “her right shoulder?” Smit only describes them as being on the “outside of the shirt.”

When confronted with the incriminating fiber evidence, Lou Smit said, "You just can't rely on fiber evidence."

The Smit depo does state that. Have you googled blue fibers JonBenet right shoulder? My notes have: dark blue fibers match duvet/sham in vaginal area and shirt back of right shoulder.

Steve Thomas Deposition (Atlanta, Georgia) 09/21/01
25 Q. But the FBI disagreed with the
247
1 CBI, didn't they?
2 A. On what point?
3 Q. On the question of whether there
4 were fibers inside materials found in the
5 suitcase found under the window in the
6 basement consistent with fibers found on
7 JonBenet?
8 A. No, I'm aware of Smit and DeMuth's
9 position or stating this consistency of these
10 fibers, but I'm not aware of a disagreement
11 between the FBI and that finding.

And, you wrote, “There were positive tests for urine from the stain on the carpet...” I would be interested in seeing a source for this claim.

Have you googled tests positive for creatinine from the stain on JonBenet basement carpet?

Last, IMO, the marks on the victim’s legs are not injuries of any sort, and, as far as I know, it is only forum posters who consider them to be such.

Anti-K, please clarify. Are you referring to the twin sets of "stun gun" marks on her legs in the summer photograph or the mention in the AR of small abrasions on the lower back of her L leg appx 4" above the ankle? Also, there's an upper L horizontal shoulder abrasion.

A few objections/questions:

Above, you wrote, “...unless we assume that the killer did it, we cannot know who molested JB prior to December 26...”

We cannot assume the killer did it.

You also wrote, “JR alters his recollection about finding the victim to later add that he fumbled to loosen the knot...”

In the ’97 interview, Ramsey says that he, “tried to get it completely undone. So when [he] took her upstairs, it was still partially around her wrist.” This is altered from what other version?

You wrote that, “The duvet fibers on her white shirt were on the back of her right shoulder.”

1) The fibers are controversial in that the FBI report contradicts the CBI report; so, the fibers may not be from the duvet. If they did not come from the duvet, than they are unidentified and un-sourced.

2) Where is it stated that these fibers were on “her right shoulder?” Smit only describes them as being on the “outside of the shirt.”

And, you wrote, “There were positive tests for urine from the stain on the carpet...”

I would be interested in seeing a source for this claim. I’m not disputing it, and I think it is true, but, as far as I know, the urine stain on the basement floor was never actually tested.

Last, IMO, the marks on the victim’s legs are not injuries of any sort, and, as far as I know, it is only forum posters who consider them to be such.
...

AK

 

[DeDee]

I am not attempting to prove premed with a prefabricated garrote. However, the cord could have been prepared the day or two in advance of the crime.

Not to pick on you or anything, but...

The victim’s hair is entwined in the cord wrapped around the handle. This means that the paintbrush was not readied in advance.

The killer fixed her hair style out of the way as much as possible with the additional hair ties. The long blonde hair became entwined in the cord when the broken paintbrush was twisted close to and became tangled in her long hair. At autopsy, her hair was cut away from the cord where it was entangled at the broken paintbrush.

Consider this: the urine stain marks the victim’s location. If the killer sat on his victim so that he was facing the door to the WC, than the paint tote would be to his left and the shards would be to his right.

I concur that is a highly likely scenario.

So where is the missing tip end of the broken paintbrush? It is missing, you agree?

If the sexual rape or digital assault and wiping takes place in her bed, then, in the basement,

Consider this:
The prepared ligature could be tightened from standing behind but the knot could have ended up in the back due to manipulation of the ends. The broken brush could be added at this point in time. Broken stick was twisted to strangle and entangled the long blonde hair.

What if the victim is standing, restrained or controlled, from the initial partial strangulation, and is whacked over the head? She collapses. Her bladder releases one last time. The ligature slides or rolls up the neck to its final circumferential positioning. She is laying in the same spot you previously described.

:seeya:

Not to pick on you or anything, but...

The victim’s hair is entwined in the cord wrapped around the handle. This means that the paintbrush was not readied in advance.

There are shards from the paintbrush on the basement floor, and these shards tell us the approximate location where the breaking occurred. Consider this: the urine stain marks the victim’s location. If the killer sat on his victim so that he was facing the door to the WC, than the paint tote would be to his left and the shards would be to his right.

I’ve experimented a bit with breaking paintbrushes and I have some other, unrelated experience seeing sticks and such break under load and it seems to me that most often (always?) things break at one end only (the weak end). You might get some deformation at the opposite end, but once one end breaks that’s it – game over.
...

AK

 

[Sandstorm]

(snipped)

snipped for brevity -
"I disagree completely with that one. I believe the strangulation is what was accidental."


OTG, I really appreciate your methodical posts which are supported by scientific research. I was most intriqued by your research on the golf club and head blow.
Thank you for all your excellent posts.

Your comment above makes me wonder how you think it happened.
I have read Kolar's book as well as Steve Thomas', yet I thought the strangulation was intentional as part of the staging after she was knocked out by the head blow.
You may have already posted your JBR theory, but I have not come across it.
If you would, please refer me to your theory if you have it posted and if not,
would you be so kind as to share your JBR Theory on how it happened with the order of events. Thank you.

 

[midwest mama]

:seeya: Hey otg--

I just couldn't resist posting the link that you sent to madeleine over at FFJ, so hope you will forgive me if I've stepped on your toes in any way.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zvZEEhBlPLc&feature=youtu.be

And, by the way, I also admire and respect your technological, methodical, and sensible manner of approach in presenting the JB case evidence as you see it.

I must stick to my original determination of a three part death: initial strangulation using something other than the ligature(thanks to BBI can now see that as a means of control - even to the point of her becoming unconscious as a means to facilitate the forthcoming actions of the perpetrator), the head blow as intentional, and, as well, the final ligature strangulation.

I hope I can present my reasoning without undue rambling on , so here goes:

First strangluation: IMO, done with something made of pliable cloth, fine textured that left no identifying abrasions such as a rope or burlap, etc might have done. I think the white cord had been used at this point to put wrist bindings on JB that were going to be used in a scenario that she saw no immediate danger in, hence no apparent struggle from her. IMO, this could have happened in her bedroom, which would account for the forensic evidence found there. I believe the use of a choking device OTHER than the neck ligature (as described above) came into play at this point, and the attacker used it harshly enough to cause the bruising on JB's lower neck which put her into an unconscious state quickly and deeply. Perhaps unexpectedly to the attacker, if this was a molestation that was in the process of escalation from former times and types of abuse.

Admittedly, this is where I have a hole in my thought process. If it was BDI up till now, I think he could have gone to get his parents out of fear. And they went into panic/cover up mode from this time forward. The decision was made by one or both parents to keep the family dynamic of incest and sexual abuse from destroying their public image and future lifestyle. Perhaps feeling JB was already beyond saving due to the severity of her injuries, but worried she could possibly expose them in the future.

If it was either or both of the R's involved in child sexual abuse or child abuse involving behavioral punishment or corporal cleansing, I believe they chose what they believed was their only option to keep JB from disclosing the severity of the unbearable abuse to someone in authority if she did regain consciousness. I believe it is possible she was carried to the basement in this unconscious, nearly comatose state, where the balance of the murder crime was committed. The wrist ligature cord would have been gathered up and carried along with JB, left in place upon one wrist.

I might add that JR admitted to untying one side of the wrist cord when he "found" her. Maybe because he already knew it could be easily be done. If both parents were summoned by BR, I can envision JR untying the binding and carrying JB to the basement, after he and/or Patsy cleaned up a molestation and/or corporal cleansing mess. It is possible, IMO, she was put back into the longjohn's at this point, without ANY underwear on. At 45 lbs, it would have been very difficult for PR to carry the unconscious weight of JB down two flights of stairs to the basement, IMO.

Once in the basement, I believe it is possible JB was then re-bound at the wrists at this point, in an unconscious state, around something that would have secured her in a position to enable the bash to her head with something that had a padded covering of some sort so as not to injure the skin of her scalp. Either the weapon had it's own soft exterior, or was wrapped in something. I can envision JB being placed into the chair for support of her body, with the wrist binding cord raising her hands up over her head. It is at this time, I believe JB might have regained consciousness and let out the reported scream, followed immediately by it being stifled and receiving the head bash. Bound in place, IMO, it is entirely possible someone could have placed a hand over her mouth from behind her, and popped her skull with a padded weapon with the other hand.

If there is any truth to BR's reported version of seeing her get carried quietly downstairs and hit in the head, this would all fit, since neither of the R's might have been able to squelch him at this point. It is possible in the time that then followed, they got him secured back upstairs in his bed, until the early morning when the call to 911 was made. If his voice was on the 911 tape, I believe it it because he was inquiring about their "finding" the RN*. (* See below)

But the head bash was not killing her, and in the time allowance suggested in Kolar's book, I believe it is possible the next steps were to put the lunatic pedophile kidnapper/intruder plan into place. There was a piece of the white cord from the wrist bindings cut and made into the ligature which was placed around JB's neck. I believe the ligature was tightened with her sitting in the chair, unconscious, arms bound up over her head. IMO, the killer may have somehow secured the loose end of the ligature onto something to hold it in place for a few moments until she was no longer breathing. This would account for the slight upward white marks on the backside of her neck, but then could also account for her being immediately unbound from the chair, moved to the location of the paint tray, placed on her stomach, ligature tightened completely around her neck circumferential, with the final release of bladder urine.

It's here that I believe we can allow for the thought that PR was incorporating a psychotic reaction as she envisioned JB becoming an angel, and had some say so in how JB's body was placed into the chair for the bash. If both parents were involved in commencing with a cover up, why is it not possible that in the frenzy of the entire event, PR staged according to a psychosis, and JR staged according to how he assumed logic should direct towards the lunatic intruder, The paintbrush was broken, tied into the ligature, catching up JB's hair. Her body was turned over, the lj's removed for the final vaginal assault with the thought it would leave the appearance of a sexual attack thereby covering up any signs of the sexual abuse having been done to JB. They would not have realized the autopsy would reveal signs of former healing and the condition of her vaginal area due to former abuse.

Here is where I think it possible the size 12's were put onto JB (having been fetched from the gifts in the WC), the longjohns put back on over them, and her body then taken into the WC where it was covered like a papoose, arms stretching up over her head, feet sticking out. The small amount of blood stains in the crotch of JB's size 12's probably oozed out when she was picked up and moved. Rigor was setting in and handling her body was just too difficult to take the time to completely swaddle her. It was important to someone that she be found wearing panties. Which was a complete contradiction to the lunatic/pedophile plan, or a plan a child would have come up with. To me, it was a complete giveaway of a family member who had a sense of how a properly attired child would have been readied for bed. And then logically, it would then make sense to be able to claim she was removed from her bed. JB's regular panties were probably packed for the trip, except the too small, stained ones, but PR knew where to get clean, unblemished panties to be put onto JB. By JR, if necessary.

(*) Regarding the RN: I believe the initial plan was to convince authorities the call from the kidnappers should come in on the 27th. I believe the R's assumed they would clear the property of LE well enough between the time of the 911 call and the 27th to be able to either remove JB's body from the house, or convince LE they were called early due to being observed getting the money early, and had gotten JB's body early, either way under the cloak of night. My inclination lies towards removing her body, which is why I think she was wrapped in her favorite blanket wearing the panties. Both the blanket and panties could have been claimed to have been part of being taken from her bed once a decomposing body was later found.

I believe the RN plan was constructed by JR. And I find it hard to believe PR did not have a hand in writing it. According to what JR told her, and PR deciding on the ransom amount from the circumstances in their life connected to it. And, embellished at the end with her own admonishments to JR to take care of things. Victory!...SBTC, because PR was able to see her DD sent off to heaven to become an angel. Like the ornament that was found in the WC.

The plan went off track when PR, as messed up as she should have been at that point, called in more people than JR might have planned on dealing with. And when LE handled everything differently than what crime book fan, JR, surmised should be the routine. I have no doubt that he could have dumped all the blame on PR if he had to. He knew she would never give up Burke, if it was BR, and with her medical history, there were several avenues left for him to use in incriminating her. Remember, he was the one said to be the "ice man"....ruthless in business and self preservation. "It's an inside job." He handed over the note pad to LE immediately tagging it as PR's. Dr. Buef was called in for medication for PR. And very soon he got her legal representation separate from his. None of her family was legally protected. He was "so sorry this happened".

If it was either JR or PR or both, JR had PR right where he needed her, the most likely suspect to have murdered their daughter, and he would have most every avenue covered to keep himself out of the hot seat forever. There is a book about this crime: Perfect Murder, Perfect Town.

Perfectly sickening.:sick:

 

[bettybaby00]

:seeya: Hey otg--

I just couldn't resist posting the link that you sent to madeleine over at FFJ, so hope you will forgive me if I've stepped on your toes in any way.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zvZEEhBlPLc&feature=youtu.be

And, by the way, I also admire and respect your technological, methodical, and sensible manner of approach in presenting the JB case evidence as you see it.

I must stick to my original determination of a three part death: initial strangulation using something other than the ligature(thanks to BBI can now see that as a means of control - even to the point of her becoming unconscious as a means to facilitate the forthcoming actions of the perpetrator), the head blow as intentional, and, as well, the final ligature strangulation.

I hope I can present my reasoning without undue rambling on , so here goes:

First strangluation: IMO, done with something made of pliable cloth, fine textured that left no identifying abrasions such as a rope or burlap, etc might have done. I think the white cord had been used at this point to put wrist bindings on JB that were going to be used in a scenario that she saw no immediate danger in, hence no apparent struggle from her. IMO, this could have happened in her bedroom, which would account for the forensic evidence found there. I believe the use of a choking device OTHER than the neck ligature (as described above) came into play at this point, and the attacker used it harshly enough to cause the bruising on JB's lower neck which put her into an unconscious state quickly and deeply. Perhaps unexpectedly to the attacker, if this was a molestation that was in the process of escalation from former times and types of abuse.

Admittedly, this is where I have a hole in my thought process. If it was BDI up till now, I think he could have gone to get his parents out of fear. And they went into panic/cover up mode from this time forward. The decision was made by one or both parents to keep the family dynamic of incest and sexual abuse from destroying their public image and future lifestyle. Perhaps feeling JB was already beyond saving due to the severity of her injuries, but worried she could possibly expose them in the future.

If it was either or both of the R's involved in child sexual abuse or child abuse involving behavioral punishment or corporal cleansing, I believe they chose what they believed was their only option to keep JB from disclosing the severity of the unbearable abuse to someone in authority if she did regain consciousness. I believe it is possible she was carried to the basement in this unconscious, nearly comatose state, where the balance of the murder crime was committed. The wrist ligature cord would have been gathered up and carried along with JB, left in place upon one wrist.

I might add that JR admitted to untying one side of the wrist cord when he "found" her. Maybe because he already knew it could be easily be done. If both parents were summoned by BR, I can envision JR untying the binding and carrying JB to the basement, after he and/or Patsy cleaned up a molestation and/or corporal cleansing mess. It is possible, IMO, she was put back into the longjohn's at this point, without ANY underwear on. At 45 lbs, it would have been very difficult for PR to carry the unconscious weight of JB down two flights of stairs to the basement, IMO.

Once in the basement, I believe it is possible JB was then re-bound at the wrists at this point, in an unconscious state, around something that would have secured her in a position to enable the bash to her head with something that had a padded covering of some sort so as not to injure the skin of her scalp. Either the weapon had it's own soft exterior, or was wrapped in something. I can envision JB being placed into the chair for support of her body, with the wrist binding cord raising her hands up over her head. It is at this time, I believe JB might have regained consciousness and let out the reported scream, followed immediately by it being stifled and receiving the head bash. Bound in place, IMO, it is entirely possible someone could have placed a hand over her mouth from behind her, and popped her skull with a padded weapon with the other hand.

If there is any truth to BR's reported version of seeing her get carried quietly downstairs and hit in the head, this would all fit, since neither of the R's might have been able to squelch him at this point. It is possible in the time that then followed, they got him secured back upstairs in his bed, until the early morning when the call to 911 was made. If his voice was on the 911 tape, I believe it it because he was inquiring about their "finding" the RN*. (* See below)

But the head bash was not killing her, and in the time allowance suggested in Kolar's book, I believe it is possible the next steps were to put the lunatic pedophile kidnapper/intruder plan into place. There was a piece of the white cord from the wrist bindings cut and made into the ligature which was placed around JB's neck. I believe the ligature was tightened with her sitting in the chair, unconscious, arms bound up over her head. IMO, the killer may have somehow secured the loose end of the ligature onto something to hold it in place for a few moments until she was no longer breathing. This would account for the slight upward white marks on the backside of her neck, but then could also account for her being immediately unbound from the chair, moved to the location of the paint tray, placed on her stomach, ligature tightened completely around her neck circumferential, with the final release of bladder urine.

It's here that I believe we can allow for the thought that PR was incorporating a psychotic reaction as she envisioned JB becoming an angel, and had some say so in how JB's body was placed into the chair for the bash. If both parents were involved in commencing with a cover up, why is it not possible that in the frenzy of the entire event, PR staged according to a psychosis, and JR staged according to how he assumed logic should direct towards the lunatic intruder, The paintbrush was broken, tied into the ligature, catching up JB's hair. Her body was turned over, the lj's removed for the final vaginal assault with the thought it would leave the appearance of a sexual attack thereby covering up any signs of the sexual abuse having been done to JB. They would not have realized the autopsy would reveal signs of former healing and the condition of her vaginal area due to former abuse.

Here is where I think it possible the size 12's were put onto JB (having been fetched from the gifts in the WC), the longjohns put back on over them, and her body then taken into the WC where it was covered like a papoose, arms stretching up over her head, feet sticking out. The small amount of blood stains in the crotch of JB's size 12's probably oozed out when she was picked up and moved. Rigor was setting in and handling her body was just too difficult to take the time to completely swaddle her. It was important to someone that she be found wearing panties. Which was a complete contradiction to the lunatic/pedophile plan, or a plan a child would have come up with. To me, it was a complete giveaway of a family member who had a sense of how a properly attired child would have been readied for bed. And then logically, it would then make sense to be able to claim she was removed from her bed. JB's regular panties were probably packed for the trip, except the too small, stained ones, but PR knew where to get clean, unblemished panties to be put onto JB. By JR, if necessary.

(*) Regarding the RN: I believe the initial plan was to convince authorities the call from the kidnappers should come in on the 27th. I believe the R's assumed they would clear the property of LE well enough between the time of the 911 call and the 27th to be able to either remove JB's body from the house, or convince LE they were called early due to being observed getting the money early, and had gotten JB's body early, either way under the cloak of night. My inclination lies towards removing her body, which is why I think she was wrapped in her favorite blanket wearing the panties. Both the blanket and panties could have been claimed to have been part of being taken from her bed once a decomposing body was later found.

I believe the RN plan was constructed by JR. And I find it hard to believe PR did not have a hand in writing it. According to what JR told her, and PR deciding on the ransom amount from the circumstances in their life connected to it. And, embellished at the end with her own admonishments to JR to take care of things. Victory!...SBTC, because PR was able to see her DD sent off to heaven to become an angel. Like the ornament that was found in the WC.

The plan went off track when PR, as messed up as she should have been at that point, called in more people than JR might have planned on dealing with. And when LE handled everything differently than what crime book fan, JR, surmised should be the routine. I have no doubt that he could have dumped all the blame on PR if he had to. He knew she would never give up Burke, if it was BR, and with her medical history, there were several avenues left for him to use in incriminating her. Remember, he was the one said to be the "ice man"....ruthless in business and self preservation. "It's an inside job." He handed over the note pad to LE immediately tagging it as PR's. Dr. Buef was called in for medication for PR. And very soon he got her legal representation separate from his. None of her family was legally protected. He was "so sorry this happened".

If it was either JR or PR or both, JR had PR right where he needed her, the most likely suspect to have murdered their daughter, and he would have most every avenue covered to keep himself out of the hot seat forever. There is a book about this crime: Perfect Murder, Perfect Town.

Perfectly sickening.:sick:

Lots to consider in your post!

Eta: oh god, the video!!!!

 

[midwest mama]

Hope everyone understands that video is an edit job done as a hoax from the real video clip of the R's with Barbara Walters!

 

[Junebug99]

I'm going to put this out there regarding molestation, it's why I don't think the Ramseys would have know if JBr was molested.

When I was 7 a family friend started molesting me. He had a daughter around my age and we became friends. The first time it happened I was at their house and wrecked my bike, I was pretty banged up. He was home and took me into the bathroom to fix my "ouchies". I had on shorts and he fondled me. Being 7 I knew it was wrong but I never said a word.

As we grew older and our parents hung out he would do it every chance he got. If my parents ever needed a sitter it was them. I stayed all night on several occasion and he messed with me every single time. I was scared, humiliated ashamed. I also knew even at a young age that if my dad found out he would kill him, I mean literally put him 6 foot under and I didn't want my dad in trouble.

I am now 45 years old and I told one person after she shared her molestation story with me. I keep it buried. My dad is 82 years old now and I still refuse to tell him or my mom. I don't want them to feel guilty and my dad is spry 82 year old and to this day I think my dad would kill him. They are no longer friends for other reasons, I'm not even sure where my molester is living now. I guess my point is that from the age of 7 to 12 I was molested and no one knew it but me, and the molester. All these years later my family still are unaware. It can and it does happen.

 

[Charterhouse]

Midwest Mama you have covered lots of details in your post. I am glad you posted your theory.
I can tell you thought through the whole thing.
I think we all have these theories in what happened and yours is as good as any one has given.
I have a problem with mine. It keeps changing.

I know this has been discussed, and just recently. Who is responsible or are all for killing JBR. (If you are an RDI) The one who hit her on the head if that was first because she would have eventually died from that. Or, the one, if a different person who strangled her? No matter what order you think they came in. Was it the first person who did something to JB that would have led to her death, the final person, or all.
This still confuses me. So I really don't know if I am a BDI, PDI, JDI or just a RDI.
Just wondering.

JuneBug, you were posting as I was posting. I am sorry to hear about what happened to you. I agree it can and does happen.

 

[bettybaby00]

I'm going to put this out there regarding molestation, it's why I don't think the Ramseys would have know if JBr was molested.

When I was 7 a family friend started molesting me. He had a daughter around my age and we became friends. The first time it happened I was at their house and wrecked my bike, I was pretty banged up. He was home and took me into the bathroom to fix my "ouchies". I had on shorts and he fondled me. Being 7 I knew it was wrong but I never said a word.

As we grew older and our parents hung out he would do it every chance he got. If my parents ever needed a sitter it was them. I stayed all night on several occasion and he messed with me every single time. I was scared, humiliated ashamed. I also knew even at a young age that if my dad found out he would kill him, I mean literally put him 6 foot under and I didn't want my dad in trouble.

I am now 45 years old and I told one person after she shared her molestation story with me. I keep it buried. My dad is 82 years old now and I still refuse to tell him or my mom. I don't want them to feel guilty and my dad is spry 82 year old and to this day I think my dad would kill him. They are no longer friends for other reasons, I'm not even sure where my molester is living now. I guess my point is that from the age of 7 to 12 I was molested and no one knew it but me, and the molester. All these years later my family still are unaware. It can and it does happen.

Very sorry to hear what you've gone through, thanks for sharing your experiences. I get your point completely b/c When it's someone outside the family, parents can definitely be unaware. I also understand your feer about what your dad might do if he found out.

In this case, IMO, the abuser was someone JRB lived with. Why am I so convinced...I just think when you know there was prior sexual contact, coupled with the parents behavior(s)--evasion, lying, hiding medical records, and successfully taking BR completely out of the equation--all those things together make me believe it was someone in the family.

 

[bettybaby00]

Midwest Mama you have covered lots of details in your post. I am glad you posted your theory.
I can tell you thought through the whole thing.
I think we all have these theories in what happened and yours is as good as any one has given.
I have a problem with mine. It keeps changing.

I know this has been discussed, and just recently. Who is responsible or are all for killing JBR. (If you are an RDI) The one who hit her on the head if that was first because she would have eventually died from that. Or, the one, if a different person who strangled her? No matter what order you think they came in. Was it the first person who did something to JB that would have led to her death, the final person, or all.
This still confuses me. So I really don't know if I am a BDI, PDI, JDI or just a RDI.
Just wondering.

JuneBug, you were posting as I was posting. I am sorry to hear about what happened to you. I agree it can and does happen.

BBM

That's the quandary. As Kolar stated, "all 3 had a hand in her death"

 

[Blue Bottle 01]

BBM

That's the quandary. As Kolar stated, "all 3 had a hand in her death"

As Kolar opined incorrectly ...

 

[bettybaby00]

As Kolar opined incorrectly ...

That's your opinion obviously

 

[Blue Bottle 01]

That's your opinion obviously

And obviously paying readers and the media outside the BDI circle, not to mention LE.