"Who would leave children that young alone?"

[fabgod]

According to another poster on here, the nanny listening service wasn't even offered at the Ocean club due to the layout of the place, so not only is it moot, its totally not applicable.

Similarly, the quote as fact that the EVRD dog alerted to body fluids as well as blood?
Martin Grimes states "The dog EVRD also alerts to blood from a live human being or only from a cadaver'
The dog EVRD is trained using whole and disintegrated material, blood, bone tissue, teeth, etc. and decomposed cross-contaminants. The dog will recognize all or parts of a human cadaver. He is not trained for 'live' human odours; no trained dog will recognize the smell of 'fresh blood'. They find, however, and give the alert for dried blood from a live human being."

The body fluids are taken as being from a decomposed or decomposing body not live bodily fluids.

The same points seem to be being recycled endlessly, without being fact as far as I can see

 

[BritsKate]

Very true. The McCann's (et al) cobbled together their own version of a nanny listening service which somehow feeds into the theory that their actions were as responsible as a hotel's (subject to suit) would be.

 

[fabgod]

I have never had a case where the child has been or been made a ward of court. Wardship is extremely rare. Obtaining wardship isn't really necessary as the courts already have the power to make decisions regarding children so I can't go on experience and I don't want to misinform you.

Plus i'm not really sure I understand your question? At the moment, as she is missing, there is no affect on social services. I wouldn't want to comment on what would happen if she was found. This is a completely grey area for me and it's an unusual case.

In general I would say it's much easier for social services when the parents have responsibility (or it is shared with the L.A) because if the parents are being cooperative then you can get their permission to take actions. When you have to apply to the high court all the time it's time consuming and delays things. Of course when parents are being uncooperative you have to go through the courts anyway.

Thanks Gem2626
I have no knowledge of Wards of court and wondered if there would be any benefit that you might know of, from making Madeleine a ward of court as took place in the summer of 2007.

 

[Gem2626]

Snipped and BBM. But Mark Warner Ocean Club in PDL DID NOT OFFER a baby listening service at this complex as it was not deemed safe due to the layout. The McCann party KNEW THIS and still decided to manage their own service.

On other forums to do with this case, all the apologists for the McCanns trot out the same arguments, almost verbatim at times. ie;
Their behaviour in leaving their children is "normal"
Eddie (cadaver dog) reacts to body fluids of living people and alerted to a piece of coconut. (he reacted to the ground where it was found, humans found it and decided it looked like a piece of skull)
Various smears are made against Martin Grimes who was a well respected dog handler.

It all sickens me

Ok get it. No baby listening service. For some reason I thought there was but it was temporary out of service. My knowledge on this case is rusty. I had to take a loooooooong break from this case. It hurts my head.

I gave my professional opinion on theories as to why the Mccanns didn't have charges brought against them. In light of the fact that there was never a baby listening service it's only right that I acknowledge that and update.

My 'false sense of security' stance still applies, although now it is weaker. Hotels all over Europe offer this service, they were on holiday feeling relaxed, unaware of local crime rate.

Yes the hotel said it wasn't safe because of the layout. Has it ever been explained exactly why it isn't safe? Has it ever been stated that this was because of the road? Or is that assumed? Could it be because the staff from where they were based did not have a view of all the apartments? I'm aware that the view of the apartment was limited for the holiday party but had they holidayed somewhere before and used the hotel baby listening service and where the staff were based was of a similar distance? What are the rules on baby listening services what is the criteria for the service being deemed safe?

Mark Warner informed the Mccanns before they booked that it wasn't safe. Was it explained exactly why it wasn't safe? I'm nit picking here but can this be proved? Was it in writing or by a member of staff in a travel agent?

The answers to these questions would determine the level of 'false sense of security' they experienced. Which I still believe is a huge factor in why they were never charged.

 

[BritsKate]

It emerged last night their missing daughter was made a ward of court last summer at her parents' request so judges could act in her best interests in any legal dispute.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ssing-Madeleine-ward-court.html#ixzz24J2PK6Yu

 

[fabgod]

i am probably wrong here (again lol)
but I took the reason why the service was not offered was because the apartments were in various locations and that the Nannies wouldnt be able to physically get around them all.
They apparently did offer a sit in service as well as the evening creche

 

[BritsKate]

Ok get it. No baby listening service. For some reason I thought there was but it was temporary out of service. My knowledge on this case is rusty. I had to take a loooooooong break from this case. It hurts my head.

I gave my professional opinion on theories as to why the Mccanns didn't have charges brought against them. In light of the fact that there was never a baby listening service it's only right that I acknowledge that and update.

My 'false sense of security' stance still applies, although now it is weaker. Hotels all over Europe offer this service, they were on holiday feeling relaxed, unaware of local crime rate.

Yes the hotel said it wasn't safe because of the layout. Has it ever been explained exactly why it isn't safe? Has it ever been stated that this was because of the road? Or is that assumed? Could it be because the staff from where they were based did not have a view of all the apartments? I'm aware that the view of the apartment was limited for the holiday party but had they holidayed somewhere before and used the hotel baby listening service and where the staff were based was of a similar distance? What are the rules on baby listening services what is the criteria for the service being deemed safe?

Mark Warner informed the Mccanns before they booked that it wasn't safe. Was it explained exactly why it wasn't safe? I'm nit picking here but can this be proved? Was it in writing or by a member of staff in a travel agent?

The answers to these questions would determine the level of 'false sense of security' they experienced. Which I still believe is a huge factor in why they were never charged.

My only question about this stems from personal experience. I moved my American children here in 2008. They were very strictly put on 'lock down' until I became familiar with the local area, laws, community, etc. They weren't even allowed to play in the back garden unsupervised. (They were 6 and 8 at the time.)

I guess because of that I have a difficult time reconciling the false sense of security scenario. I really do appreciate your professional insights though. Thank you so much!

 

[fabgod]

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ssing-Madeleine-ward-court.html#ixzz24J2PK6Yu

I just found out that they applied to the courts on the 17th May 2007, two weeks after Madeleine went missing!

From the link provided by Britskate, it says
"It emerged last night their missing daughter was made a ward of court last summer at her parents' request so judges could act in her best interests in any legal dispute."

Two weeks after going missing they wanted the courts to act in any legal dispute?
What about her being found in that time? It beggars belief, it really does!

 

[fabgod]

Gem2626
It just dawned on me, you may be thinking that the comments about the baby listening service are directed to your post, they are not, they are in response to another post more recently that we are discussing.
Thanks

 

[BritsKate]

I just found out that they applied to the courts on the 17th May 2007, two weeks after Madeleine went missing!

From the link provided by Britskate, it says
"It emerged last night their missing daughter was made a ward of court last summer at her parents' request so judges could act in her best interests in any legal dispute."

Two weeks after going missing they wanted the courts to act in any legal dispute?
What about her being found in that time? It beggars belief, it really does!

One day, if I ever have the time, I will attempt to ascertain how many people have been sued (or threatened with suit) as well. :banghead:

On that note though I can only remember one other case in which law suits occurred (if memory serves) and that's the JonBenet case. Extremely atypical in missing children's investigations. (There are some isolated and quite reasonable suits of parents against a suspected or convicted perpetrator though.)

 

[Gem2626]

My only question about this stems from personal experience. I moved my American children here in 2008. They were very strictly put on 'lock down' until I became familiar with the local area, laws, community, etc. They weren't even allowed to play in the back garden unsupervised. (They were 6 and 8 at the time.)

I guess because of that I have a difficult time reconciling the false sense of security scenario. I really do appreciate your professional insights though. Thank you so much!

Jackalyn on the 'why did madeleine go missing' thread (p10) wrote this which I think is an extremely good point....

The US way and the UK way of thinking are often different. I have a cat. My next door neighbour is horrified I want it in at night. My US friends are horrified he would want it out. Most UK cats are let out. Most US people seem to be horrified by this.

I suspect that although we are more careful than we ever were that children are also treated differently here because although we do get a few abductions it is nothing like the scale that we see happening in the US, Where I live you see many kids playing out and some are fairly young. We do not work on the same sense of danger and as the Mccanns also came from a village they may not have had that (I already said also that there is a kind of lacking common sense thinking that may also have come into play.)

The thinking here is probably more that something will not happen, while in the US it may do so. I find it entirely likely the Mccanns just did not have the kind of heightened sense of danger that a US person might. They live, like me in a village. Somehow that does give a (false) sense of security.

The other day a local toddler wandered into my friends house, through her open door and up to the fridge, asked for help to open it, and helped himself to an ice cream (he had been to play before.) My friend simply returned the child to his house (plus ice cream.)

I personally find it worrying that children are in the streets but also it is kind of nice to see that it happens.




An example of parents being more laid back on holiday leading to that false sense of security could be the use of children's clubs. In the UK if you leave your child with a childminder then you see CRB checks, registration checks, Health and Safety checks etc. You take your child for settling in days and get to know who you are leaving your child in the care of. When you use a children's club on holiday you just drop your child off, sign in and pick them up later. You have a false sense of security that your child is in safe hands that false sense of security stems from the hotels reputation and the fact that everyone else seems to be doing it. I can't think of an example where anyone would just leave their child with someone they don't know. Correct me because i'm sure there are.

 

[fabgod]

Just on a lighter note, the comment that the McCanns come from a village, they come from Glasgow and Liverpool, it doesnt get much harder than that in my opinion!

 

[Gem2626]

Gem2626
It just dawned on me, you may be thinking that the comments about the baby listening service are directed to your post, they are not, they are in response to another post more recently that we are discussing.
Thanks

Yes, don't worry I see that

I just found out that they applied to the courts on the 17th May 2007, two weeks after Madeleine went missing!

From the link provided by Britskate, it says
"It emerged last night their missing daughter was made a ward of court last summer at her parents' request so judges could act in her best interests in any legal dispute."

Two weeks after going missing they wanted the courts to act in any legal dispute?
What about her being found in that time? It beggars belief, it really does!

The reason they would have done this is because it was thought that Madeleine was taken abroad. When you are dealing with international laws etc then the high court having wardship is a huge advantage.

For exactly the same reasons wardship can be an advantage for a parent (with custody) in getting their child back when a non-custodial parent abducts a child and takes them abroad.

 

[Gem2626]

Just on a lighter note, the comment that the McCanns come from a village, they come from Glasgow and Liverpool, it doesnt get much harder than that in my opinion!

What do you mean by 'harder'? I'm not familiar with the areas they have come from i'm sure there are remote areas in both these places.

I grew up in a village, down a quiet road where all the kids used to play outside, a real community feel and there was (and still is) a very low crime rate. when I got older and dispersed I would take some unbelievable risks. Walking through parks at night alone, walking 3 miles along an extremely quiet (sort of) main road that was surrounded by fields , I once got into a car with 2 guys I didn't know and luckily didn't come to no harm. The risks were endless and stupid. A few years ago I was working with young people with substance misuse issues and obviously risk taking was a big topic in training/ talking to the young people. It was only then that it dawned on me how incredibly naive I had been and how lucky I was to be alive.

Now to get to my local shop I have to walk through an alley which is poorly lit at night. Up until almost 2 years ago I used to do that all the time. It was the Jo Yeates case that stopped that. I honestly felt safe doing that despite the fact that the area on the other side of the alley is quite rough. Anyway, I was discussing this with my neighbour. She grew up in a very bad area in south London, is far more capable of defending herself should she get in to trouble than I am and she was absolutely shocked that I would walk through this alley at night.

Anyway, enough about me.

ETA- I used to work in a place called Selsdon which is less than a 10 min drive from where Tia Sharpe was found. Selsdon is a rural area, remote and in Croydon which is a London borough.

 

[fabgod]

What do you mean by 'harder'? I'm not familiar with the areas they have come from i'm sure there are remote areas in both these places.

I grew up in a village, down a quiet road where all the kids used to play outside, a real community feel and there was (and still is) a very low crime rate. when I got older and dispersed I would take some unbelievable risks. Walking through parks at night alone, walking 3 miles along an extremely quiet (sort of) main road that was surrounded by fields , I once got into a car with 2 guys I didn't know and luckily didn't come to no harm. The risks were endless and stupid. A few years ago I was working with young people with substance misuse issues and obviously risk taking was a big topic in training/ talking to the young people. It was only then that it dawned on me how incredibly naive I had been and how lucky I was to be alive.

Now to get to my local shop I have to walk through an alley which is poorly lit at night. Up until almost 2 years ago I used to do that all the time. It was the Jo Yeates case that stopped that. I honestly felt safe doing that despite the fact that the area on the other side of the alley is quite rough. Anyway, I was discussing this with my neighbour. She grew up in a very bad area in south London, is far more capable of defending herself should she get in to trouble than I am and she was absolutely shocked that I would walk through this alley at night.

Anyway, enough about me.

ETA- I used to work in a place called Selsdon which is less than a 10 min drive from where Tia Sharpe was found. Selsdon is a rural area, remote and in Croydon which is a London borough.

Its a generalisation, Glasgow has some very nice areas as does liverpool but in contrast, both have some pretty tough, rough areas that for years havent been what you would call welcoming, I have to say Manchester is the same in areas most cities most likely are nowadays.

I grew up in Manchester, when we were young nobody locked the doors, we all played outside unsupervised for hours, we could walk to the shops, get the bus to town, we all felt safe.
This is the city which had the Moors murders, the yorkshire ripper killed here, Its always happened and it always will I suppose.

The problem now for me is that everyone can get access to a car, it doesnt matter where you live, the more affluent the more it could be a target, in the old days people seemed to have less as in luxuries and signs of wealth so it seemed to be more of a community, now it seems more like the haves and have nots in a way.
So much for it being on a lighter note eh?

 

[SapphireSteel]

As a child I was petrified of going anywhere in the dark.

This fear has remained with me, to this day I have NEVER walked anywhere alone in the dark.

I grew up in a very "safe" city, with an extremely low crime rate...but for some reason I have always been scared.

I actually thought all women felt this way until posting on this site.

Perhaps it was the way I was brought up...? But it seems more than that.

A natural, inbred caution. Perhaps I was attacked in a past life.

 

[Gem2626]

Its a generalisation, Glasgow has some very nice areas as does liverpool but in contrast, both have some pretty tough, rough areas that for years havent been what you would call welcoming, I have to say Manchester is the same in areas most cities most likely are nowadays.

I grew up in Manchester, when we were young nobody locked the doors, we all played outside unsupervised for hours, we could walk to the shops, get the bus to town, we all felt safe.
This is the city which had the Moors murders, the yorkshire ripper killed here, Its always happened and it always will I suppose.

The problem now for me is that everyone can get access to a car, it doesnt matter where you live, the more affluent the more it could be a target, in the old days people seemed to have less as in luxuries and signs of wealth so it seemed to be more of a community, now it seems more like the haves and have nots in a way.
So much for it being on a lighter note eh?

Yeah sorry that was my fault

I'd be interested to know exactly where they have lived all their life. I live in the kent countryside. I have pretty much always lived in the same area except for some time spent in Devon which was even more remote. It's only from working in London, my job and the media that I have lost my 'village mentality' just wondering if the Mccanns ever had this and if so did they ever lose it.

 

[SapphireSteel]

Yeah sorry that was my fault

I'd be interested to know exactly where they have lived all their life. I live in the kent countryside. I have pretty much always lived in the same area except for some time spent in Devon which was even more remote. It's only from working in London, my job and the media that I have lost my 'village mentality' just wondering if the Mccanns ever had this and if so did they ever lose it.

I know he persued her to Wellington New Zealand, which is where they hooked up.

Wellington has NEVER been a comfortable city to walk around at night.

 

[Gem2626]

As a child I was petrified of going anywhere in the dark.

This fear has remained with me, to this day I have NEVER walked anywhere alone in the dark.

I grew up in a very "safe" city, with an extremely low crime rate...but for some reason I have always been scared.

I actually thought all women felt this way until posting on this site.

Perhaps it was the way I was brought up...? But it seems more than that.

A natural, inbred caution. Perhaps I was attacked in a past life.

Were your parents quite protective of you? I don't light candles anymore and if I see one I watch it. When I was younger and lit candles my dad installed so a fear in me that the house would burn down I don't feel safe.

Obviously how you were raised is another huge factor in how you act as a parent. Since realising how reckless I was and most definitely from joining websleuths I am extremely protective of my daughter.

 

[SapphireSteel]

Were your parents quite protective of you? I don't light candles anymore and if I see one I watch it. When I was younger and lit candles my dad installed so a fear in me that the house would burn down I don't feel safe.

Obviously how you were raised is another huge factor in how you act as a parent. Since realising how reckless I was and most definitely from joining websleuths I am extremely protective of my daughter.

No, they were not.

I biked and bussed all over town in the daytime and got up to all sorts of mischief. I was the original "latch key kid" as they both worked long hours.

It almost seems like an instinctive fear...to this day I would never DREAM of doing it...I absolutely assumed every other woman felt this way too.

It was so odd to me to find they didnt.