No testing did not take place for weeks. But i did read somewhere (either the telegraph or the bbc I think, will try to find link) that testing was done at about three months. I have never seen anywhere that said the Mccanns refused the testing - i would have thought the police could easily get a court order for this, but have no idea if the portuguese courts can do this. But testing would normally only be thought of if people are showing signs of drug toxicity or if there was an immediate concern a drug had been taen and I do not think the mccanns thought of the children being sedated until later. I can understand that, when something bad happens it is natural in the weeks (and years) afterwards to go over and over each detail to try to come up with an explanation of what could have happened and how it could have happened. But drugs stay in the hair for months and months so it is unlikely although not impossible that if any drugs were in their systems it would have shown up on a screening three months later.
Why did Madeleine 'go missing'?
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the laughable thing here is kate mccann in her book says she is convinced the kids were drugged but she did tests on them in september 07 which proved they werent LOL what a LIAR IN ANY CASE she was lapse as a mother to NOT send the kids to hospital for tests that night
Does she actually say when she became convinced the children were drugged? I got the impression that it was not something she thought of until later when she was going through everything in her head. I do not see how the children could have been drugged (apart from an abductor climbing in and chloroforming them all), as they were in a children's club all day and it would be too difficult.
I now there were reports of someone going into british tourist childrens' rooms and abusing them, I wonder if there were children of other nationalities abused by an intrudor, or if it is has happened in any other countries. It seems so stupid that it is so easy to hop between countries in the EU, not even requiring a passport for many of them, yet we do not automatically look at crime across borders.
I now there were reports of someone going into british tourist childrens' rooms and abusing them, I wonder if there were children of other nationalities abused by an intrudor, or if it is has happened in any other countries. It seems so stupid that it is so easy to hop between countries in the EU, not even requiring a passport for many of them, yet we do not automatically look at crime across borders.
What was she actually lying about?
This post here from Paulo Reis's blog provides some information.
http://gazetadigitalmadeleinecase.b.../another-stupid-attempt-from-team-mccann.html
Thats just a raodom blog, anyone can write anything. Even if the children had had their hair cut, it would needed to nealry all be removed to get rid of hair that contained drugs. It was only about three months later, so the only hair that would not have drugs in would be the hair from the scalp to about three centimetres down (and the drugs would have stayed in their systems for a while after too).
badhorsie
Mouth operational, brain elsewhere...
Paulo Reiss is a journalist not a random blogger.
Hair testing would have been pointless if done straight away. If I was in Kate M's situation I think that I would have wanted to have my children's blood tested within the first 24 hours and have them checked over by medics (yes I know they were all Drs but I would want an independent evaluation)
However who knows what I would have done in reality, I am sure that none of them were thinking straight.
Hair testing would have been pointless if done straight away. If I was in Kate M's situation I think that I would have wanted to have my children's blood tested within the first 24 hours and have them checked over by medics (yes I know they were all Drs but I would want an independent evaluation)
However who knows what I would have done in reality, I am sure that none of them were thinking straight.
UKgirl
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I think it was an accidential overdose. If you think about it, a doctor than overdosed her own children would not have a very good reputation or even a career!.
But where is there any evidence of the children being given drugs. They only had calpol at most, and this is not a sedative. A sedative version was on the market for a short time, but not until after madeleine disappeared.
calpol is not the safest thing for very young children (but that has only been announced fairly recently), but there have been no cases of fatal overdose in children in the UK. It can just cause damage to the liver in the long term. No-one looking after Madeleine on the holiday noticed anything amiss with her, photos of her on the day she disappeared show her looking healthy with no signs of liver damage. It is in theory possible that she could have been fine and had a sudden overdose, but she would have needed to drink several bottles of it for it to kill her within two hours. remember she was seen alive and well and awake at six thirty, and two hours later her parents appeared at dinner, and from then until the alarm was raised they are only unaccounted for, for about five minutes each. Also for the mccanns to have time to dispose of a body on foot in an area they did not know that well, come up with the abduction idea, and ask their friends (some of whom were not good friends, and one had only met them on the holiday) to help cover up the death, it meant that Madeleine had to die in much less than two hours. I do not see how that is feasible.
Even in adults who take huge overdoses of paracetamol it is unusual for someone to just die in two hours, they normally end up getting very ill vomiting, etc. there was also no sign of vomiting or cleaning in the flat when the police turned up that night. besides, why lie? All they had to do is say Madeleine got hold of it and drank it herself (I loved calpol as a child). As I said it would not have been instantaneous, she would have become ill, why not take her to the hospital and claim she got hold of it herself? Why dump her body in a foreign country with no ceremony, and then launch an international campaign to find her drawing attention to themselves when there were much simplier lies they could have told.
I find it equally hard to figure out the hypothetical intruder's thinking and method. He was taking a huge chance going into an apartment, given that there seem to have been plenty of people walking around that night, and that the Tapas group were making frequent (and rather irregular) checks on the rooms. He could so easily have been caught in the room or walking out carrying the child. The walls were apparently quite thin (since people had previously complained about the crying) so if he woke the children up and they cried, he'd also likely be caught. If Madeleine was alive, why didn't she cry out? Why didn't the twins wake up and cry out? If she was dead (if he somehow killed her) why did he take her with him? He could just leave the body in the room.
How do we know the parents only had calpol (don't actually know what that is)? They were doctors. Perhaps they gave her something by injection to make her sleep, and so they couldn't claim she had taken it herself.
It is a puzzling case, no question. The evidence is hard to make sense of whether you believe it was an intruder or not. I think that many people, like me, are influenced by the behaviour of the parents both before and after Madeleine went missing. The fact that they left them alone, in an unlocked apartment, even after Madeleine talked about crying and being upset at being left, suggests a certain coldness and lack of caring to me. The mother leaving the sleeping twins in the apartment after she finds Madeleine missing while she hurries to tell the others concerns me. And so on.
Tink
How do we know the parents only had calpol (don't actually know what that is)? They were doctors. Perhaps they gave her something by injection to make her sleep, and so they couldn't claim she had taken it herself.
It is a puzzling case, no question. The evidence is hard to make sense of whether you believe it was an intruder or not. I think that many people, like me, are influenced by the behaviour of the parents both before and after Madeleine went missing. The fact that they left them alone, in an unlocked apartment, even after Madeleine talked about crying and being upset at being left, suggests a certain coldness and lack of caring to me. The mother leaving the sleeping twins in the apartment after she finds Madeleine missing while she hurries to tell the others concerns me. And so on.
Tink
UKgirl
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Sedative would be easy to get hold of, they are both doctors and both knew the different medicines out there. Calpol i agree to think about it would not do over such a short period of time, but what if he child had been sedated many times before this on a high dose of sedative? the progressive effect may have some sort of reaction. Also the evidence would not be there as there is no body, in fact noone knows either way. Also was there not incidences where some friends did not actually enter the room, just stand at the door and listen?.
I still believe madeline was accidently killed and her death covered up. There is too many unanswered questions.
When Matt went to chec he did not fully open the door so he did nto see Madeleine. he fairness he was not checking to see if she was still there, just checking they were not crying or anything.
As for the sedatives, long term overdose would normally show signs, and if it had been used long term it would be harder to kill (obviously not true if it was paracetamol based) someone with it.
But there is no evidence of it whatsoever, so if we are going to make claims where there is no evidence we could claim anything.
We now madeleine was seen alive and well at both six and six thorty by people outside of the mccanns. We know the mccanns were seen at dinner at eight thirty, and were only unaccounted for for about five minutes each until ten when the alarm was raised. We now they did not now the area well, we now they did not have a car, and we know they did nto have access to spades and digging tools. So they had a two hour window in which Madeleine went from alive and well to dead and beyond help, her parents had to decide not to get help, and decide to hide her body. The hiding place was so good it has never bene found, and cannot have involved burying her and had to be within walking distance. The mccanns also had to shower and change for dinner. Its a lot to do in two hours.
What unanswered questions are there?
As for the sedatives, long term overdose would normally show signs, and if it had been used long term it would be harder to kill (obviously not true if it was paracetamol based) someone with it.
But there is no evidence of it whatsoever, so if we are going to make claims where there is no evidence we could claim anything.
We now madeleine was seen alive and well at both six and six thorty by people outside of the mccanns. We know the mccanns were seen at dinner at eight thirty, and were only unaccounted for for about five minutes each until ten when the alarm was raised. We now they did not now the area well, we now they did not have a car, and we know they did nto have access to spades and digging tools. So they had a two hour window in which Madeleine went from alive and well to dead and beyond help, her parents had to decide not to get help, and decide to hide her body. The hiding place was so good it has never bene found, and cannot have involved burying her and had to be within walking distance. The mccanns also had to shower and change for dinner. Its a lot to do in two hours.
What unanswered questions are there?
So he partially opened the door? Where did you read that? All accounts he has given was that the door was quite open, he never went near it, he never touched it, he just looked from about four feet away, ref channel 4 documentary called Madeleine Was Here, 2009. Youtube it.
And if he was not checking to see if she was there, why did he, according to his wife in her rogatory interview, say, he wondered where she slept so went to look into the parents bedroom?
And why did he actually go inside the apartment that night unlike all his previous checks when he just listened at the front kids bedroom window car park side from outside. Well, also, then he seemed to know where the kids slept, but come Thursday he wondered where Madeleine slept?
I did not say he partially opened the door, I said he did not fully open it. It was already partially open, so he just looked over the room, and listened. I have not read any statements that do not say they went into the flats each night
Well whether he touched the door or not opened it or didnt it doesnt matter seeing as he didnt actually look in properly. I have already pointed out to you that his WIFE said he went to look for Madeleine in her parents bedroom. So unless you think she was lying that is exactly what happened, and he must have told her seeing as she didnt do the check with him.
Sorry you were correct about him looking into the parents room. But it does not sound like he was worried, more just popped his head in, in case.
This is what his wife says about the checking of the children. (http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/RACHAEL-OLDFIELD-ROGATORY.htm)
Checking before the thursday
1578 'Okay, and when you went to check on Grace, what sort of checks would you conduct'' Reply 'Erm well we'd go into the room, which ordinarily we wouldn't do to be honest, erm but she seemed to have diarrhoea and kind of, I mean she'd settled quite well actually cos she'd been tired every evening, erm but every morning when she woke up, she had diarrhoea and it had gone right through her grow bag and so there's all of this sort of horrendous smell, so in the evenings when we were checking, we'd go into the room just to see if you know, there was any sort of smell yet, erm and just to make sure she was alright, to make sure she hadn't been sick, partly I think cos Matt had been sick, just wanted to make sure that she hadn't been, in case it was some sort of bug'.
She states that on the sunday matt wa sill and stayed in, and on the wednesday she was ill and stayed in so on these two nights they did not do the check.
on the thursday night:
Dave and Fi are always late for everything, which there was a bit of a sort of standing joke, so erm and we could see their apartment from the table, their lights were all still on and obviously they hadn't got themselves out of there yet, erm and so at about five to nine, Matt said just he'd go up and get them and hurry them along, so he went back, yeah up the road and in through the car park, but actually as he was going up the road I think, he passed them erm and as he was leaving the table and said that he'd go and get Dave and Fi and Diane, erm he said he'd just have a listen outside the windows of the apartments, just to make sure there was no crying or anything, erm so he, he passed them in the street, they came and sat at the table and you know a few minutes later, Matt came back and he'd listened outside our window and you know, Grace was quiet and he listened outside Madeleine and the twins bedroom and that was all quiet, you know and all the, you know all the shutters were down'.
01.08.18 1578 'Did he tell you that'' Reply 'Not at the time but afterwards, but I mean he said yeah everything was quiet, he listened at all the windows and also Ella and Evies I think, I mean I know he definitely listened at Graces and at Madeleine and Sean and Amelies windows and everything was quiet so he came back, I mean you know, that, and that was different to the other nights cos you know, we hadn't done that before you know, that hadn't been part of the routine, sort of listening, even listening at other peoples windows, but you know, wed all pretty much just arrived at the tables and erm, so you know, it was just kind of a quick check really'.
about twenty five past nine, or half past nine, erm Matt and Russell got up and said that, no I think I said I'd go and check on Grace and Matt said he'd go and then Russell said that he'd go and check on Evie and Ella as well at the same time, erm and Kate got up to go and check on Sean, Amelie and Madeleine and Matt and Russell said oh you know, do you want us to do it, we're going up there anyway so, erm she said yes and she said that the patio doors were open, so just to go in that way, erm so they headed up there, erm Matt came back about five minutes later, you know said to Kate that everything was okay, erm he'd been in and had a look at Grace, erm Russell wasn't with him, erm he told Jane that Evie had been sick and so Russell was changing the sheets and looking after her, erm well I know all the detail about Matt you know, going into Gerry and Kates and all that sort of thing, do you want me to tell you that, its just, you know, its not really, I mean its''
1578 'Its not your evidence, its what he's told you'. Reply 'Its not my evidence yes, yeah, you know its about what we've all talked about as a group, erm'.
1578 'Well okay, for completeness, what did he say he did in the room'' Reply 'Erm well he and Russell went up and they were going to call at Gerry and Kates on the way but for some reason didnt, they went round the back, erm Russell went into their apartment, Matt went into ours, checked on Grace, erm came out, went back to get Russell, thats when he discovered that Evie had been sick, so Russell was sorting her out, erm so he went back round through the car park and out down the road, up the back steps into Gerry and Kates apartment, through the patio door, erm noticed that the door of the apartment was open but not wide open but sort of you know, sort of half open, which'.
01.13.22 1578 'Which door'' Reply 'The door to the bedroom, the twins bedroom and Madeleines bedroom, erm and I mean afterwards you know, he said he thought that was unusual because he thought the door would be shut, cos I mean we always shut Graces bedroom door, erm or at least if we did, I mean we always shut it but yeah I know some people would kind of probably just pull the door to, but he didnt expect it to be as wide open as it was, erm so he, well he said you know from kind of standing close to the doorway, he could see that the twins were in their cots and there was no sound, erm so he just assumed everything was alright, he didnt put his head round the door to see if Madeleine was in her bed, but he said he did wonder where she slept, erm poked his head, well you know kind of looked into Gerry and Kates room, just saw there was a double bed there, so you know, assumed they were all in together or, I mean I think he knew that they were all in together, erm but he didnt actually look to see whether Madeleine was there or not'.
1578 'He didnt open the door'' Reply 'He didnt open the door any further no'.
1578 'Wider'' Reply 'Erm well the line of sight from where he was standing sort of from the lounge I think, allowed him to see the two cots with the two twins in and everything was quiet and erm, you know ordinarily we wouldn't, we only really went to see, to look, actually look at Grace because you know Matt had been sick and I'd been sick and she'd sort of seemed to have had an upset stomach, erm but otherwise you know normally if everything was quiet, we wouldn't open the door really, you know just they're quiet, they're not you know, as long as they're not crying thats, or dont seem to be awake, then you just you know, leave them, erm so yeah he saw the twins and then you know, went out, shut the patio doors and you know came back to the table and said everything was okay1578
'He didnt open the door'' Reply 'He didnt open the door any further no'.
I agree it does sound odd how he wondered where madeleine slept so looked in the parents room, but the oldfields had a smaller flat, and the room where the twins were was not so big, so he maybe assumed this was just where the twins slept, and when she was not in her parents room just assume dshe slept in the room with the twins. It sounds more like he could not be bothered to do the checks properly, hence he listened at the windows.
i do not think this lot are guilty of being involved in madeleine's disappearence (why not just say he listened and all was well, rather than saying he checked the parents room if he was involved), but I still think it is bad parenting to leave a baby you are worried is going to be sick or have diarrhoea alone for twenty minutes or so. She could have choked on her own sick. I actually would not be surprised if matt never checked the parents room, and just said that as he felt guilty about not checking properly.
This is what his wife says about the checking of the children. (http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/RACHAEL-OLDFIELD-ROGATORY.htm)
Checking before the thursday
1578 'Okay, and when you went to check on Grace, what sort of checks would you conduct'' Reply 'Erm well we'd go into the room, which ordinarily we wouldn't do to be honest, erm but she seemed to have diarrhoea and kind of, I mean she'd settled quite well actually cos she'd been tired every evening, erm but every morning when she woke up, she had diarrhoea and it had gone right through her grow bag and so there's all of this sort of horrendous smell, so in the evenings when we were checking, we'd go into the room just to see if you know, there was any sort of smell yet, erm and just to make sure she was alright, to make sure she hadn't been sick, partly I think cos Matt had been sick, just wanted to make sure that she hadn't been, in case it was some sort of bug'.
She states that on the sunday matt wa sill and stayed in, and on the wednesday she was ill and stayed in so on these two nights they did not do the check.
on the thursday night:
Dave and Fi are always late for everything, which there was a bit of a sort of standing joke, so erm and we could see their apartment from the table, their lights were all still on and obviously they hadn't got themselves out of there yet, erm and so at about five to nine, Matt said just he'd go up and get them and hurry them along, so he went back, yeah up the road and in through the car park, but actually as he was going up the road I think, he passed them erm and as he was leaving the table and said that he'd go and get Dave and Fi and Diane, erm he said he'd just have a listen outside the windows of the apartments, just to make sure there was no crying or anything, erm so he, he passed them in the street, they came and sat at the table and you know a few minutes later, Matt came back and he'd listened outside our window and you know, Grace was quiet and he listened outside Madeleine and the twins bedroom and that was all quiet, you know and all the, you know all the shutters were down'.
01.08.18 1578 'Did he tell you that'' Reply 'Not at the time but afterwards, but I mean he said yeah everything was quiet, he listened at all the windows and also Ella and Evies I think, I mean I know he definitely listened at Graces and at Madeleine and Sean and Amelies windows and everything was quiet so he came back, I mean you know, that, and that was different to the other nights cos you know, we hadn't done that before you know, that hadn't been part of the routine, sort of listening, even listening at other peoples windows, but you know, wed all pretty much just arrived at the tables and erm, so you know, it was just kind of a quick check really'.
about twenty five past nine, or half past nine, erm Matt and Russell got up and said that, no I think I said I'd go and check on Grace and Matt said he'd go and then Russell said that he'd go and check on Evie and Ella as well at the same time, erm and Kate got up to go and check on Sean, Amelie and Madeleine and Matt and Russell said oh you know, do you want us to do it, we're going up there anyway so, erm she said yes and she said that the patio doors were open, so just to go in that way, erm so they headed up there, erm Matt came back about five minutes later, you know said to Kate that everything was okay, erm he'd been in and had a look at Grace, erm Russell wasn't with him, erm he told Jane that Evie had been sick and so Russell was changing the sheets and looking after her, erm well I know all the detail about Matt you know, going into Gerry and Kates and all that sort of thing, do you want me to tell you that, its just, you know, its not really, I mean its''
1578 'Its not your evidence, its what he's told you'. Reply 'Its not my evidence yes, yeah, you know its about what we've all talked about as a group, erm'.
1578 'Well okay, for completeness, what did he say he did in the room'' Reply 'Erm well he and Russell went up and they were going to call at Gerry and Kates on the way but for some reason didnt, they went round the back, erm Russell went into their apartment, Matt went into ours, checked on Grace, erm came out, went back to get Russell, thats when he discovered that Evie had been sick, so Russell was sorting her out, erm so he went back round through the car park and out down the road, up the back steps into Gerry and Kates apartment, through the patio door, erm noticed that the door of the apartment was open but not wide open but sort of you know, sort of half open, which'.
01.13.22 1578 'Which door'' Reply 'The door to the bedroom, the twins bedroom and Madeleines bedroom, erm and I mean afterwards you know, he said he thought that was unusual because he thought the door would be shut, cos I mean we always shut Graces bedroom door, erm or at least if we did, I mean we always shut it but yeah I know some people would kind of probably just pull the door to, but he didnt expect it to be as wide open as it was, erm so he, well he said you know from kind of standing close to the doorway, he could see that the twins were in their cots and there was no sound, erm so he just assumed everything was alright, he didnt put his head round the door to see if Madeleine was in her bed, but he said he did wonder where she slept, erm poked his head, well you know kind of looked into Gerry and Kates room, just saw there was a double bed there, so you know, assumed they were all in together or, I mean I think he knew that they were all in together, erm but he didnt actually look to see whether Madeleine was there or not'.
1578 'He didnt open the door'' Reply 'He didnt open the door any further no'.
1578 'Wider'' Reply 'Erm well the line of sight from where he was standing sort of from the lounge I think, allowed him to see the two cots with the two twins in and everything was quiet and erm, you know ordinarily we wouldn't, we only really went to see, to look, actually look at Grace because you know Matt had been sick and I'd been sick and she'd sort of seemed to have had an upset stomach, erm but otherwise you know normally if everything was quiet, we wouldn't open the door really, you know just they're quiet, they're not you know, as long as they're not crying thats, or dont seem to be awake, then you just you know, leave them, erm so yeah he saw the twins and then you know, went out, shut the patio doors and you know came back to the table and said everything was okay1578
'He didnt open the door'' Reply 'He didnt open the door any further no'.
I agree it does sound odd how he wondered where madeleine slept so looked in the parents room, but the oldfields had a smaller flat, and the room where the twins were was not so big, so he maybe assumed this was just where the twins slept, and when she was not in her parents room just assume dshe slept in the room with the twins. It sounds more like he could not be bothered to do the checks properly, hence he listened at the windows.
i do not think this lot are guilty of being involved in madeleine's disappearence (why not just say he listened and all was well, rather than saying he checked the parents room if he was involved), but I still think it is bad parenting to leave a baby you are worried is going to be sick or have diarrhoea alone for twenty minutes or so. She could have choked on her own sick. I actually would not be surprised if matt never checked the parents room, and just said that as he felt guilty about not checking properly.
I am not implying anything at all, you didnt answer my last post btw.
I am not really sure what you mean. I answered in the main post about what I thought in regards to him popping his head in. My theories are
1) he did not in actual fact look in the parent's room, and said this because he felt guilty. perhaps when he told his wife she asked him why he did not check, and he just said something like "oh I did check her parents room, but when she was not there I assumed she was with her siblings". He perhaps did not say he actually checked that she was in the room, as he did nto want to actually lie about seeing or not seeing her and muck up the investigation. I have no evidence whatsoever to back this up though, and he has not changed his story in five years so more likely he did tell the truth.
2) he did check her parents room, and when he did not see her, he just assumed she was with her siblings, and could not be bothered to check. Going by his earlier check, when he listened at the window of his own child (they double locked their door, the mccans left their patio door unlocked so it was easy to pop into the mccanns, but a faff to go into his own flat) it does seem like he could not really be bothered to check properly.
I do not think the oldfields come out of this well, they left their baby even though they were worried she might be sick and choking on sick is a risk for a baby (in the UK the advice is to leave babies on their back). But it is a big leap from that, to somehow being involved in a child's death. And thats the thing, it is not a personality contest, being a prat or a lax parent does not make someone capable of helping to cover up a child's death. Matt apparently knew Gerry from uni, but Rachel did not know them well - I really cannot see either of them, especially rachel as she did not know them, agreeing to help them cover up a death. Also Matt's statement does not help the Mccanns, if he had said he had seen her, then yes that helps them. But he made a point of saying he did not see her so had no idea if she was there or not. What is the point of him lying?
1) he did not in actual fact look in the parent's room, and said this because he felt guilty. perhaps when he told his wife she asked him why he did not check, and he just said something like "oh I did check her parents room, but when she was not there I assumed she was with her siblings". He perhaps did not say he actually checked that she was in the room, as he did nto want to actually lie about seeing or not seeing her and muck up the investigation. I have no evidence whatsoever to back this up though, and he has not changed his story in five years so more likely he did tell the truth.
2) he did check her parents room, and when he did not see her, he just assumed she was with her siblings, and could not be bothered to check. Going by his earlier check, when he listened at the window of his own child (they double locked their door, the mccans left their patio door unlocked so it was easy to pop into the mccanns, but a faff to go into his own flat) it does seem like he could not really be bothered to check properly.
I do not think the oldfields come out of this well, they left their baby even though they were worried she might be sick and choking on sick is a risk for a baby (in the UK the advice is to leave babies on their back). But it is a big leap from that, to somehow being involved in a child's death. And thats the thing, it is not a personality contest, being a prat or a lax parent does not make someone capable of helping to cover up a child's death. Matt apparently knew Gerry from uni, but Rachel did not know them well - I really cannot see either of them, especially rachel as she did not know them, agreeing to help them cover up a death. Also Matt's statement does not help the Mccanns, if he had said he had seen her, then yes that helps them. But he made a point of saying he did not see her so had no idea if she was there or not. What is the point of him lying?
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