Why was JB killed?

[txsvicki]

Didn't both sisters let themselves go? They looked fine to me, not being critical, but pics of both being quite overweight doesn't jive with the beauty queen image. I'll bet Nedra made plenty of comments about weight.

 

[BBB167893]

Didn't both sisters let themselves go? They looked fine to me, not being critical, but pics of both being quite overweight doesn't jive with the beauty queen image. I'll bet Nedra made plenty of comments about weight.

I don't remember Paulette being involved in the pageant life. Or is that who you meant?

 

[DeeDee249]

I don't remember Paulette being involved in the pageant life. Or is that who you meant?

It was just Patsy and Pam who were in the Miss America pageant system. They were both Miss West Virginia, and I think doted on the fact they were the only pair of sisters to hold that title. I do not think the third sister was involved in pageants.
I wouldn't describe Patsy as having "let herself go". Some of her physical changes were from her chemo and the (probable) steroid treatments that so many doctors force on women undergoing chemo. But her sister Pam looks VERY different than her pageant days, and it isn't just that she is older. I have never seen a picture of the third sister so I can't comment about her.

 

[txsvicki]

I didn't know if both sisters entered pageants, but there was an old interview when Patsy competed, and she was talking of plans saying that Paulette would be the tallest and prettiest of the three when she was old enough.

 

[gramcracker]

[meow] I never saw PR as being "wow" attractive, even in her pageant days. I think she was somewhere between "well, she doesn't scare people" and "meh" [/meow]

(sometimes I swim in the shallow end of the pool)

 

[cherisa]

[meow] I never saw PR as being "wow" attractive, even in her pageant days. I think she was somewhere between "well, she doesn't scare people" and "meh" [/meow]

(sometimes I swim in the shallow end of the pool)

She also had a mustache and apparently didn't know about waxing :doh:

 

[Meara]

Pam and Paulette

http://tucsoncitizen.com/morgue/files/2006/08/l22940-1.jpg

 

[questfortrue]

Pam and Paulette

http://tucsoncitizen.com/morgue/files/2006/08/l22940-1.jpg

Not that all weight gain means someone has been molested. However, for at least some it does have exactly this meaning. A local psychiatrist has had one of my clients -X - under care for decades. X is about 5’7” and weighs close to 300 lbs. She shared with me one time that she had been abused (incest) as a child. The weight she knew was a way to make certain she was not attractive to men.

HS who reviewed JB’s bedroom to try to get a feel for the child and the crime, wrote in her book, Fire of the Five Hearts, that this field of child abuse will chew one up inside. (HS had to have therapy to give her the strength to help these abused children.) She also brought out something else which is important to remember in a child abuse situation. Even if a child is in therapy, it can take a long time for the child to reveal what has happened to them. They keep it quiet to protect themselves and others. moo

 

[Meara]

Likewise, Meara. I'm an old vet of this case. I wish I could say I was not.

I have no solid basis to believe that Patsy or her sisters were abused, either by their father of someone else in the family. BUT, there are some things that seem to yell out to me. Here's an example. One night, my brother and I were drinking a bit, and he said, "Ya know, Guv, I think there was abuse in PR's family."

"What do you mean, Mate?"

"Think about it: the two oldest sisters were known for their looks, right? Doesn't it strike you a bit odd that the sister (meaning Pamela) never got married, never had kids and let her looks and weight go so badly?"

I have to admit, I've looked at things differently since then.

I also agree with the assessment about Nedra. God only knows what she was like toward her daughters. I don't think she had a very healthy relationship with her daughters. Call that a hunch, if you will.

Dave, I got too tired to keep writing. When I came back, it was as though you and your brother had magically completed my thoughts! Yes, Pam is the sister I had in mind and for exactly the reasons you stated. qtf's post develops the picture a step further with the correlation between childhood sexual abuse and adult obesity. Your hunch is spot on, IMO.

If Nedra Had NPD, as I believe, here is some of what her daughters would have experienced:
intrusive in their lives but not nurturing (may have been seen as "energetic" or "fun")
subtley competitive and critical
treated the girls as extensions of herself
basked in their accomplishments while also finding sly ways to undermine them
trained them to be compliant by making the psychological cost of autonomy too high
a different person at home than the one other people saw
demeaning and belittling in deniable ways
played the Queen Bee
did not admit faults/mistakes or apologize
did what she wanted to do in the guise of generosity
rewrote history; retold events the way she wanted them to be, or in a way that showed off how [insert attractive quality here] she was
got even later for perceived slights
forgot/ignored the girls' needs/interests if they did not interest her personally or reflect well on her
would have used denial to make the problem of incest "go away"

A mother like this invades and occupies her daughters' psyches, essentially displacing their sense of self. This leads to poor boundaries, high compliance (difficulty saying no to people or expectations), and hunger for affection and approval. Attractivenes boosts them from good to excellent targets for sexual abuse. They're good at covering up, looking good while keeping secrets.

Do you happen to know whether any of the Paugh sisters had a drinking problem? That would be a very significant marker for sexual abuse, by itself, and even moreso in combination with Nedra's disorder and adult obesity.

 

[Meara]

Brother Moon believes Patsy killed JB as part of a psychotic fantasy; fascinating stuff, though I'm not ready to go that far. What's easy to say is how displaced she was; despite the famous Patsy-ness of Patsy, how "not there" she was -- the vague language (it had sort of a star kind of thing vs. the shirt had a star design on the front), the fillers (so, like, I mean, you know...), the self-interruption (well we wouldn't have...I mean, John didn't...it's not like we, you know....).

Then there were the inappropriate expressions, such as this shocker: Asked to recall the exact sequence of events after she found the ransom note (1998 police interview), Patsy said that after a certain point, "You know, then everything gets really you know, who's on first kind of thing." The first time I read that, I nearly came out of my chair. Patsy was describing a scene of panic on the day her daughter was found strangled to death in the basement. "Who's on First" is one of the all time great comedy routines by Abbott and Costello (http://www.psu.edu/dept/inart10_110/inart10/whos.html).

Patsy rarely named her feelings or used the language of feelings. This, too, is symptomatic of childhood narcissistic abuse. She probably was discouraged from saying she was sad, angry, afraid, thrilled. A mother like Nedra doesn't care, unless it's something she can exploit. Pam and Polly would have been similarly affected.

The unresolved dysfunctions of a family get played out in the next generation. Whether PR tried to save JBR, send her to heaven, couldn't confront JR's or BR's abuse, or felt threatened by JBR in some way, no doubt the disordered family dynamics of the Paughs help explain the "why" of her murder.

 

[gramcracker]

thank you, Meara! excellent posts with very important insights!

 

[Mahouston69]

Sadly, I don't think it was that deeply twisted. Recently I watched someone I have known my whole life behave completely out of character and perpetrate highly delusional acts. Seems the explanation by the physician is common of a person who sufferes cancer metastisized to the brain. She was both homicidal and suicidal, severely erratic, uncontrollable mood swings, hallucinations, etc. I believe that Patsy was suffering the effects of cancer in her brain and killed her own daughter and made it to look like a kidnapping, and murder by an obsessed fan. She may not have even remembered it.

 

[Wildflower73]

Sadly, I don't think it was that deeply twisted. Recently I watched someone I have known my whole life behave completely out of character and perpetrate highly delusional acts. Seems the explanation by the physician is common of a person who sufferes cancer metastisized to the brain. She was both homicidal and suicidal, severely erratic, uncontrollable mood swings, hallucinations, etc. I believe that Patsy was suffering the effects of cancer in her brain and killed her own daughter and made it to look like a kidnapping, and murder by an obsessed fan. She may not have even remembered it.

Hi Ma:
I was thinking that PR lived another 10 years after JB.'s death; so, I doubt her brain was effected by cancer to such an extent.

Just my opinion..

 

[Meara]

Thank you for the kind words, gramcracker. And questfortrue, my apologies for "qtf"....I have a defective abbreviator :facepalm:

 

[txsvicki]

It's interesting to at least consider some effects to the brain from stage 4 cancer. Patsy did all sorts of things afterwards but was reported to have erratic behavior for awhile. I've always wondered if she had colon removal or an ostomy, which was kept quiet.

 

[borndem]

Originally Posted by Meara
Anyhoo, Dr. Beuf and his wife attended the same church as the Ramseys, IIRC. If he suspected something, his dual relationship put him in an awkward spot.

I believe the term is "conflict of interest."

Dr. Beuf should not have felt awkward, though if what you posted, Meara, is true, I'll bet he did, just like you said; and he should not have felt as if he had a conflict of interest, as you would prolly agree, SuperDave -- he should have had no doubt but to act as a professional in his position should. He should have reported it asap. Did he? Did it get back to the R's?

Or could it have been someone else like a school nurse, or JB's friend, DW?

Oh, the Ramsey mystique... Grrrrr.

 

[borndem]

There's always the possibility that she was the object in motion and hit something else.

Yes, indeed, SuperDave. It could be that PR had JB in JB's bathroom to clean her up since PR noticed her underwear was wet or soiled when PR was helping JB into pj pants/longjohns.

Perhaps PR had the water too hot, or scrubbed her too hard and JB, in a snit about the whole wash-up process and she was tired and cranky, so she screamed. PR, also tired & cranky may have slapped her, or slapped at her. JB either slipped after the slap, or slipped as she ducked to avoid it, and fell against the side of the bathtub, bashing her head. That fall could have severely injured JB and made her unconscious. And then all the rest happened.

 

[txsvicki]

There's no way to separate JonBenet's vaginal inflammation and injury from the death. She must have experienced pain and discomfort, and vocalized it to someone. There were no recent dr visits about the issue either. I keep going back to Patsy doing it all, even the vaginal injuries from internal cleansing and applying creams. Her being nuts from her own childhood or slow growing tumor in the brain is not such a stretch.

 

[BBB167893]

Dave, I got too tired to keep writing. When I came back, it was as though you and your brother had magically completed my thoughts! Yes, Pam is the sister I had in mind and for exactly the reasons you stated. qtf's post develops the picture a step further with the correlation between childhood sexual abuse and adult obesity. Your hunch is spot on, IMO.

His hunch, more like.

If Nedra Had NPD, as I believe, here is some of what her daughters would have experienced:
intrusive in their lives but not nurturing (may have been seen as "energetic" or "fun")
subtley competitive and critical
treated the girls as extensions of herself
basked in their accomplishments while also finding sly ways to undermine them
trained them to be compliant by making the psychological cost of autonomy too high
a different person at home than the one other people saw
demeaning and belittling in deniable ways
played the Queen Bee
did not admit faults/mistakes or apologize
did what she wanted to do in the guise of generosity
rewrote history; retold events the way she wanted them to be, or in a way that showed off how [insert attractive quality here] she was
got even later for perceived slights
forgot/ignored the girls' needs/interests if they did not interest her personally or reflect well on her
would have used denial to make the problem of incest "go away"

Meara, not too long ago, I caught an interview with a woman named Stacey Lannert, who wrote a book detailing her experiences as an abuse survivor. She filled in a lot of blanks for me.

A mother like this invades and occupies her daughters' psyches, essentially displacing their sense of self. This leads to poor boundaries, high compliance (difficulty saying no to people or expectations), and hunger for affection and approval. Attractivenes boosts them from good to excellent targets for sexual abuse. They're good at covering up, looking good while keeping secrets.

Do you happen to know whether any of the Paugh sisters had a drinking problem? That would be a very significant marker for sexual abuse, by itself, and even moreso in combination with Nedra's disorder and adult obesity.

No, I don't know if they do or not.

 

[BBB167893]

Sadly, I don't think it was that deeply twisted. Recently I watched someone I have known my whole life behave completely out of character and perpetrate highly delusional acts. Seems the explanation by the physician is common of a person who suffers cancer metastisized to the brain. She was both homicidal and suicidal, severely erratic, uncontrollable mood swings, hallucinations, etc. I believe that Patsy was suffering the effects of cancer in her brain and killed her own daughter and made it to look like a kidnapping, and murder by an obsessed fan. She may not have even remembered it.

Given my own experiences with cancer, this doesn't shock me as much as it probably should.

I hate to sound like a ghoul, but I can't help but wonder what an autopsy of PR's brain would have revealed after she died.