Why was JB killed?

[Chelly]

Well if there's a way out there, totally improbable, against all odds, never gonna happen in REAL life scenario to explain this crime, or any aspect of it, by all means let's find it, latch onto it, and run with it to exonerate the guilty party(ies). Just SMH...

Anybody else around her have a headache from :banghead:???

Nah. Why respond to the absurd?

 

[Mama2JML]

Mama, I hope you don't mind, I went searching for an answer.
I did find this:
Dr. Wecht, who is a medical doctor, a lawyer, and a coroner, told the Daily Camera in 1997, "Chronic inflammation and epithelial erosion of the vagina indicates sexual abuse more than two days old."
from http://websleuths.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-22887

There are some elements (strangulation before head blow) to Wecht's analysis that "make sense" to me, but I have difficulty with other elements; "this was a game that had been played before," for example.

 

[Mama2JML]

I suddenly feel like the Wicked Queen when the Magic Mirror broke the bad news!

Awww, no worries. I have a BIG heart. I've known you WAAAYYY longer, so you're more like an annoying brother. :slap: LOL...

 

[Venom]

There are some elements (strangulation before head blow) to Wecht's analysis that "make sense" to me, but I have difficulty with other elements; "this was a game that had been played before," for example.

I'm not too sold on the ae strangulation game being played between JB and BR. I just don't see that as being known to a 6 and 9 year old, much less back in 1996. I just saw that he stated epithelial erosion of the vagina as an indicator of sexual abuse. He could be right with his findings but just wrong with his theory.

 

[borndem]

How seriously Munchhausen's looked at? Perhaps she was a sickly child but that looks like a lot of doctor visits.

I haven't seen anything in these threads about Munchhausen's-by-proxy, which is what it would have been with PR/JB, but I don't think that was it -- unless PR craved attention that much, dunno.

I wonder, as others have said, if it was just poor hygiene... infections, itching, chafing, etc., etc. Chronically not being clean would prolly cause all of it, except the evidence of abuse. Maybe PR had bad memories of her experiences when she was 4, 5, or 6 years old, and she couldn't do any better than she did for her daughter or her son. --> I'm not giving PR any breaks here, but something abnormal caused these infections, IMO.

 

[borndem]

I suddenly feel like the Wicked Queen when the Magic Mirror broke the bad news!

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/data:image/jpeg;,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

Well, bless your heart, you poor, good hearted man...Well, Dave, I'm in your corner!!

 

[UKGuy]

I'm not too sold on the ae strangulation game being played between JB and BR. I just don't see that as being known to a 6 and 9 year old, much less back in 1996. I just saw that he stated epithelial erosion of the vagina as an indicator of sexual abuse. He could be right with his findings but just wrong with his theory.

Venom,
The Erotic Asphyxiation theory was abandonded years ago. Once its worked out that the ligature *advertiser censored* paintbrush could not function as advertised.

JonBenet's hair is embedded into the knotting, suggesting it was manufactured in place i.e an afterthought.

It passes over the necklace any presure from the ligature would have left necklace marks on her neck, there are none!

JonBenet has other unexplained injuries on her body including the mark on her neck beneath the circumferential furrow.

This is what I reckon the ligature and paintbrush was attempting to mask, i.e. someone seriously assaulted JonBenet, most likely starting with a sexual assault, culminating in a fight of some sort, resulting in JonBenet having her neck constrained either to prevent her from calling out or leaving the room, or possibly both?

The rest is staging in one form or another?


.

 

[DeeDee249]

Spot on, UKGuy.

 

[Venom]

Venom,
The Erotic Asphyxiation theory was abandonded years ago. Once its worked out that the ligature *advertiser censored* paintbrush could not function as advertised.

JonBenet's hair is embedded into the knotting, suggesting it was manufactured in place i.e an afterthought.

It passes over the necklace any presure from the ligature would have left necklace marks on her neck, there are none!

JonBenet has other unexplained injuries on her body including the mark on her neck beneath the circumferential furrow.

This is what I reckon the ligature and paintbrush was attempting to mask, i.e. someone seriously assaulted JonBenet, most likely starting with a sexual assault, culminating in a fight of some sort, resulting in JonBenet having her neck constrained either to prevent her from calling out or leaving the room, or possibly both?

The rest is staging in one form or another?


.

Thanks. I never bought into it.

 

[Anti-K]

(Mama2JML, I apologize for taking so long to reply to your excellent posts. You linked a lot of information I had to read and try to absorb in my little brain, and I had to do a bit of research in order to give you an equally intelligent response. All that, and this is only my part-time job . I’ve combined everything into one post to try and keep all the information together.)


We agree about the term "chronic" as Dr. Meyer used it (and I'm glad someone understands it). I'm not certain about this recent round of antibiotics that you refer to (which I'll get to later). But if she had taken them, I agree that it could cause a change in the normal pH balance and kill off the "friendly" bacteria of a healthy vaginal environment which will ordinarily fight off fungal, bacterial, and viral infections. Vaginal inflammation is sometimes a result of this imbalance, but I don't think I would go so far as to call it an expected result. But so far, we don't completely disagree with one another.


This whole discussion would be unnecessary had testing been done to check for other possible causes of the inflammation. But it wasn’t, probably because presented in total, Dr. Meyer saw the inflammation as related to the rest of the indications of sexual assault. But your position is that since the vaginal inflammation is one of the indications of prior abuse, it is possible that it might not be related to any prior abuse. Instead, you say, it might be coincidental from some other source. I’ll agree with you that, however unlikely, it is possible. However, since we don’t have anything to confirm or refute either of our positions, we have to look at likelihoods and probabilities, which probably isn’t going to sway either of us from our positions. But you’ve made a very good case, Mama, and I have given it a great deal of thought. I’ve also gone through my bookmarks looking for any information related to the subject, and I’ve read the articles in the links you provided. I’ll respond with my thoughts to make my case. This has taken me a while to gather the information, as we both know my simply writing my opinion counts for nothing. So I’ll post references at the end so you (or anyone else) can verify my quotes and even look for more information than I thought relevant.



1. I agree that vaginal inflammation alone could be from something other than sexual abuse, as well as being from sexual abuse. So actually, taken by itself, it could be indicative of either. I think we can both agree on that.

2. “Most often attributed to infection” would depend on the group being compared. If it is all instances of vaginal inflammation, it would be comparing it to adults as well as premenarchal girls. If so, any inflammation experienced by most adult women would certainly not likely be from sexual abuse (as in the case with a child), and would therefore skew any implied statistics about its frequency as the cause.

OTOH, if you are only comparing prepubertal girls, I would imagine the likelihood of infection versus abuse as the cause of inflammation to be much more in line with one another. But that’s just a guess; I have no statistics to support that supposition. It most likely would depend on how frequently child abuse is reported or found, and how common some type of infection is (within JonBenet’s age group).

So how common is vaginal infection in girls around JonBenet’s age, and what are the causes?


The entire quote from your Mayo Clinic link says the following (note the bbm):

Vaginitis is an inflammation of the vagina that can result in discharge, itching and pain. The cause is usually a change in the normal balance of vaginal bacteria or an infection. Vaginitis can also result from reduced estrogen levels after menopause.

The most common types of vaginitis are:

• Bacterial vaginosis, which results from overgrowth of one of several organisms normally present in your vagina
• Yeast infections, which are usually caused by a naturally occurring fungus called Candida albicans
• Trichomoniasis, which is caused by a parasite and is commonly transmitted by sexual intercourse
• Vaginal atrophy (atrophic vaginitis), which results from reduced estrogen levels after menopause

Treatment depends on the type of vaginitis you have.
​

So indeed we are looking here at all women -- not children (or else we wouldn’t be considering postmenopausal women in the group). So if we eliminate the last type (vaginal atrophy) because of age group, and the one above it (Trichomoniasis) because we are (for the time being) excluding sexual intercourse as a cause, that leaves us with either bacterial or yeast infection as the possible most likely types of vaginitis (assuming for the time being that the inflammation is from systemic vaginitis and not due to sexual abuse).

Again, most of this quote is relevant to adult women. In looking for information on this, we have to be careful not to include information which is not applicable to someone in JonBenet’s age group. From Sexually Transmitted Diseases: Vaccines, Prevention, and Control:

The normal anatomy, physiology, and microbial etiology of the vagina are age-dependent (Cruickshank and Sharman, 1934). There are also obvious age-dependent differences in the source of vaginal infections. These factors account for different etiologies of vaginitis in neonates, infants, prepubertal girls, and premenopausal and postmenopausal adults (Farage and Maibach, 2006) (Table 2.1).
​

Also from the same book (bbm):

As the neonate grows into infancy the cuboidal vaginal epithelium becomes susceptible to bacterial STIs of N. gonorrhoeae and C. trachomatis, but becomes resistant to candidiasis. Vaginal infection by N. gonorrhoeae among infants is thought to represent postnatal acquisition, usually from abusive situations.

In older premanarchal girls the etiology of vaginal symptoms is correlated with the status of puberty and the presence or absence of signs of abnormal vaginal discharge. In one study of premenarchal patients with suspected vaginitis and age-matched controls (Hammerschlag, et al., 1978), a microbial pathogen was isolated from 53% of patients with abnormal vaginal discharge, none with only suspected vaginitis without discharge, and one of the control subjects. N. gonorrhoeae was isolated from one-third of abnormal vaginal discharges in prepubertal girls, whereas Candida albicans was isolated only from those premenarchal girls who were considered to be pubertal based on breast growth (Tanner stages II, III, or IV). C. trachomatis has not been implicated as a common cause of prepubertal vaginitis, but its occurrence in prepubertal sexually abused girls has been documented in several studies (Fuster and Neinstein, 1987; Shapiro et al., 1993).
​

I think you and I, Mama, as well as others reading this, can agree to exclude STIs (mentioned in the preceding passage) as a factor. For one thing, the responses to an STI would not be present if it was contracted during the last sexual assault, so that would mean it would have to have been contracted earlier enough to confirm the prior abuse which you are taking the position of trying to disprove (at least for the sake of argument as Devil’s advocate). So discounting this, that leaves the two other possible causes: bacterial or yeast (Candida). In the above referenced study, Candida was only found in girls who were at puberty (JonBenet would be at stage I in the Tanner scale, and therefore would be excluded). Continuing:

About 75% of women get candida vaginitis at some time in their lives. Vaginal candida does not generally occur without estrogen, so premenarchal girls and postmenopausal women not on estrogen replacement almost never develop vaginal yeast.
​

I know what you might be thinking. Saying “almost never” does not completely exclude the possibility. And on that, I have to agree. But here again we are down to the likelihood of something as opposed to the possibility, and we will probably never get beyond that point.

From Synopsis of Pediatric Emergency Medicine:

The term nonspecific vaginitis, referring to a disorder of prepubertal girls, encompasses a variety of genitourinary symptoms and signs that are sometimes caused by poor perineal hygiene but that in other cases have no readily identifiable cause. Genital discomfort, discharge, itchiness, and dysuria are relatively common childhood complaints. When a girl with such symptoms has either a normal vulva and vagina or only mild vulvar inflammation on physical examination, a specific vaginal infection is unlikely, and other possible explanations for the complaint -- smegma, pinworms, urinary tract infection, a local chemical irritant, or sexual abuse, for example -- should be sought with appropriate questions and laboratory tests. (It should be noted that commercially available bubble bath is not often the culprit.) If, on the other hand, a vaginal discharge is present on physical examination, the specific vaginal infections discussed in this chapter are diagnostic possibilities, and cultures should therefore be obtained. In reported series of premenarchal girls with vaginitis who have been systematically evaluated, between 25% and 75% ultimately are categorized as having nonspecific vaginitis. The diagnosis should not be made until other entities have been excluded.
​

From Pediatric Emergency Medicine:

Pathologic vaginal discharge and inflammation (vaginitis) is much more common in postmenarchal adolescents and adults than in the pediatric age range.

Reduced levels of estrogen and the more alkaline pH of the vagina in premenarchal girls are two important reasons why the prevalence, etiology, and presentation of vaginitis is different in premenarcheal girls than postmenarchal adolescents and adults.

The majority of cases of premenarchal vulvovaginitis are not caused by an infection, yet when the patient has a visible vaginal discharge, there is a higher likelihood of a specific infectious cause.
​

So for vaginitis to occur from something other than physical means (regardless of its cause), it needs two things: an upset to the natural balance of the vagina (which could certainly be from antibiotics), and an environment that would allow it to thrive (the higher level of estrogen produced with the onset of puberty).

As noted above, it would help to know whether or not she had any vaginal discharge in order to confirm the possibility of a bacterial infection. But the last time Dr. Beuf had seen her (according to him in an interview with Diane Sawyer) was in August of the same year for a routine physical which included (according to him) a “vaginal exam”. There is nothing (to my knowledge) to indicate he found anything out of the ordinary at that time to suggest any vaginal concerns; so we can surmise she had no unusual discharges found by, or reported to, him. Had something serious come up after that, I have no doubt that Patsy would have consulted him. The other things that people remember come from much earlier (“September 1993 -- a call about vaginal redness, possibly associated with recent diarrhea. April 1994 -- a visit about a problem perhaps related to the use of bubble bath, which can be an irritant.”) I think these dates were probably (and I believe most will agree) before any sexual abuse had begun. So I think we can assume that no one was aware anyway of any unusual vaginal discharge which would be an indication of a bacterial infection (or yeast). And as for the “bubble bath irritant”, that had been noted and taken care of back in April of 1994, and Patsy should have discontinued them after that if that was a concern (even though other sources will dispute this as a problem because commercial bubble baths are formulated so they should not cause irritation in children, as noted in the previous quote above).

I’ll point out here that I can’t help but be at least just a little suspicious of information given by Dr. Beuf. One reason is the ridiculous answer he gave to Diane Sawyer in response to her question about his “routine vaginal exam”:

DIANE SAWYER:If there had been an abrasion involving the hymen, you would have seen it?

Dr. FRANCESCO BEUF: Probably. I can't say absolutely for sure because you don't do a speculum exam on a child that young at least unless it's under anesthesia.
​

:what:
​

What?!!! Does he not know where the hymen is located, or does he not know what a speculum is for? Or, does he just think we’re too stupid to think about what he said?


I have to admit that I wasn’t aware that respiratory pathogens might cause vaginal infection if carelessly transferred by the person. I would have thought the nature of the pathogen would make it unique to its environment and therefore not viable in some other area of the body. I hadn’t read about this anywhere else until I read your post. I’ve since looked into it and I agree that apparently it is not that rare for this to happen. However, we have to be careful to distinguish between bacterial and viral pathogens. Antibiotics are useless against viruses, and most respiratory illnesses are viral -- not bacterial. Strep throat (from the streptococcus bacteria) is one that would be treated with antibiotics, but a doctor shouldn’t try to diagnose and treat that without visually examining the patient. To learn more about this, here are some links:

http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/000678.htm
http://www.health.com/health/condition-article/0,,20251853,00.html
http://www.webmd.com/cold-and-flu/cold-guide/antibiotics-colds
http://www.webmd.com/oral-health/tc/strep-throat-topic-overview
http://www.cdc.gov/features/getsmart/

I’m not sure about the timing of the “sinus infection”, the “follow-up visit”, or the use of an antibiotic five weeks before her death. The only information I know of to go by is the interview he did with Diane Sawyer where he stated she was last seen as part of a routine physical in August, and notes that were alleged to have been related to Detective Harmer (which I cannot verify or substantiate) where the following dates were given (from FFJ post here). I’ll repost all of the dates and notations so we’ll have it here:

8/6/90: JBR born.

12/6/91: First visit with Beuf. Treated for fever, cough, and wheezing.

Over next 10 months, she had the usual colds and coughs of a toddler.

1/93: Diagnosed with ear infection (her first). Amoxicillin prescribed.

By age 2 1/2, she had a history of coughs accompanied by low grade fever.

3/93: First serious illness, fever 102, difficulty breathing. Coughed up yellow mucus and looked droopey.

7/93: (Patsy diagnosed with cancer; JBR under Nedra's care). Regressed in toilet training and eating habits.

8/31/93: Responding to Beuf's questions, Patsy says JBR doesn't have any phobias and no aspect of JBR's sexual education needed to be discussed.

9/6/93: Buttocks and vaginal area chafed red from diarrhea.

11/93: Cough and stuffed nose. Sleeping poorly, grouchy from fatigue, bad breath. Chronic sinusitis.

12/31/93: Still drinking from bottle; parents having trouble weaning her.

1/94: Bad breath, cough and congestion.

2/4/94: Nedra suggests Fifth Disease. (Childhood viral illness, often accompanied by rash. Fifth in line of common childhood diseases, i.e., chickenpox, measles). No medication prescribed.

4/94: Breath still bad, runny nose, little appetite, slept poorly, bladder infection and vaginal discharge. Diagnosed with vaginitis. Amoxicillin prescribed and warned against bubble baths.

4/94: (3 weeks later) Still coughing, stuffy nose, congestion. Ear hurt, cranky. Diagnosed with allergic rhinitis, Benedryl prescribed.

4/94: (1 week later). Still coughing, Suprax prescribed.

10/5/94: Came in for checkup, doctor notices scar on left cheek. She'd been hit accidentally by a golf club when the family was in Charlevoix. A week after the accident, a plastic surgeon was consulted. No injury to cheekbone. Beuf is told (at this visit) that she's getting along with brothers and older sister. Wearing pullups at night because she's wetting bed. Patsy completes developmental questionnaire, and says there are no aspects of JonBenet's behavior or sex education she needed to discuss, and also notes JBR has no fears or phobias.

11/1/94: Had diarrhea five times and was lethargic. One bowel movement appeared bloody.

11/4/94: Badly congested, deep cough, bad breath. Diarrhea gone.

1/1/95: Chickenpox. Rash even appears in vaginal area. Recommended Avino, Benadryl and Lanocaine.

1/31/95: Still has bad cough and not sleeping well. Robitussin not helping.

Mid-Feb/95: Cough. Temp 99.3.

3/95: Complained of stomachache but sleeping well.

4/95: JR calls in, says JBR has another cough, but he doesn't think daughter needs to be examined.

5/8/95: JBR falls in Alfalfa's food market, lands on nose, not broken.

12/95: Trips and hits head above left eye. Stuffy nose, bad breath, coughing.

3/96: Coughing a lot.

5/96: Bent nail back on fourth finger, left hand, in another fall. Swollen and painful, but no bruising. Ibuprofen recommended.

8/27/96: Patsy reports JBR's a good sleeper, wasn't hard to get to bed, and was easily awakened in the morning. Not interested in opposit sex, behaved modestly in public, and didn't engage in sex play with her friends. She was, however, asking about sex roles and reproduction. She was not rude or afraid of either parent. Didn't seem to be bossy with brother, didn't react with trantrums, and was active. Loved fruit and some vegetables. Patsy said she was delightful and doing very well. Burke had his annual checkup same day.

9/96: Cough back, Robitussin recommended.

10/96: Stuffy nose, bad breath. Diagnosed with allergic rhinitis.

11/12/96: Runny nose and cold sore, sneezing.

12/3/96: Sees eye doctor.

12/96: Misses pageant due to illness.
​

[Note: In the above list, it seems like (my speculation here) that the specific dates are for actual office visits, and the approximate dates (mo/yr only) are phone consultations or simple notations.] Notice in this list that it notes what was prescribed, what over-the-counter medications were recommended, and even in one case (2/4/94) he mentions “No medication prescribed.”

In the Diane Sawyer interview, he lists the following:

DIANE SAWYER: (voice-over) We asked him to specifically review all notes that might pertain. He agreed, citing the frenzy of uninformed speculation. Be warned, these are a doctor's clinical notes about a young patient.

September 1993 -- a call about vaginal redness, possibly associated with recent diarrhea.

April 1994 -- a visit about a problem perhaps related to the use of bubble bath, which can be an irritant.

October 1994 -- a routine physical. No problems noted, though some indication of occasional bedwetting. Dr. Beuf says 20 percent to 25 percent of children that age wet the bed.

March 1995 -- abdominal pain and fever. Tests and exam showed no problem.

August 1996 -- another routine physical with a vaginal exam. The doctor said everything checked out as normal.
​

But later from the phone interview Sawyer states the following:

DIANE SAWYER: (on camera) And some other notes. Dr. Beuf says he last saw JonBenet Ramsey in November 1996, and that was a checkup for a sinus infection.
​

This November 1996 “checkup for a sinus infection” would coincide with the 11/12/96 date from the earlier transcription where no mention is made of any prescribed or recommended medications. Neither does he mention to Sawyer that he had prescribed any medications. Symptoms listed for 11/12/96 are, “Runny nose and cold sore, sneezing.” Those are not symptoms that would warrant a diagnosis of a bacterial infection, and therefore antibiotics would have been useless (from links above). [A cold sore, BTW for anyone who doesn’t know, is from a virus -- herpes simplex I (usually), or sometimes HSV-II.]

I’m not a doctor, but Beuf was. I have to add that if he was able to diagnose “allergic rhinitis” over the phone (10/96), he’s pretty damn good (or... not so much :giggle: ). But being that good of a doctor, I can’t imagine that he would prescribe an antibiotic for an allergy, much less not make note of the prescribed medication.

With all things considered from above, I don’t believe we can assume that JonBenet was taking antibiotics shortly before her death. And since there is no direct evidence of it (to my knowledge), I don’t believe that it can be considered as a possible cause for the vaginal inflammation that was found in her autopsy.



...something physical -- not systemic or pathogenic, and not part of a natural process of shedding dead cells.

“Erosion (from a medical definition): Superficial destruction of a surface by friction, pressure, ulceration, or trauma.”
​

“Epithelial erosion” is the loss of the thin layer of cells formed on the surface of (in this case) the hymenal tissue. From “The microscopic anatomy of the hymen”:

The main bulk of the hymen is formed of fibrous connective tissue, partly elastic and partly collagenous fibers. Both surfaces are covered by stratified squamous epithelium which lacks any evidence of cornification. The epithelium is thicker at the attached edge.
​

The microscopic examination done by Dr. Meyer should give him the information he needed to determine what he stated. He would see the loss of the layer of “stratified squamous epithelium” exposing the vascular sub-layer of the hymenal tissue. This is how he determined that the mucosal layer of the hymen was eroded. In the natural process of shedding cells, older cells are replaced with new ones of the same microscopic structure before the dead cells fall off. If this thin layer of cells on the surface is missing, it exposes the underlying cellular structure called the “lamina propria”. From Wikipedia:

The lamina propria (more correctly lamina propria mucosæ) is a thin layer of loose connective tissue, or dense irregular connective tissue, which lies beneath the epithelium and together with the epithelium constitutes the mucosa. As its Latin name indicates it is a characteristic component of the mucosa, "the mucosa's own special layer". Thus the term mucosa or mucous membrane always refers to the combination of the epithelium plus the lamina propria.
​

The loss of the layer of epithelium (whether it is on the hymen or in the vagina) is not natural. It is obvious microscopically. It is evidence of something having physically removed it.




Depending on the type of injury and where it is, there are different grossly visible, as well as microscopic, indications. The color of a bruise is a visible indication of how far along in the healing process it is. In the mucosal tissue of the hymen addressed in the AR, the “underlying capillary congestion” (underneath the eroded epithelium) is determined microscopically. It would probably be (depending on the extent) grossly visible as being unusually redder in color than surrounding tissue. This could be due to the body’s reaction by angiogenesis (depending on the amount of time since injury), or it could be from “reactive hyperemia”.


This is not plausible. In fact, this one really stretches the boundaries of credulity. Even mentioning it seems to me a desperate attempt at straw grasping, but I’ll address it nonetheless.

First of all, the capillary congestion that occurs in the adult female sex organs during arousal (as well as other responses) is transient. We all wish it could last longer, but it’s just doesn’t. Even in speaking about adults where sexual arousal can occur, it does not extend beyond death. This heightened peak of arousal is supported not only by the physical stimuli causing it, but by the mental excitement as well. This only happens in living persons.

Secondly (and this probably should have been firstly), I don’t think a child is even capable of sexual arousal. If you care to dispute this, I’ll have to take your word for it. I’m not about to start researching the subject on my computer and risk someone, someday, for some reason, seeing that I had been searching the subject.

Lastly, it looks like we’ll never be able to totally dismiss the EA BS. This has been addressed so many times by so many people, it doesn’t deserve consideration. As much respect as I have for him, I blame this on Dr. Wecht for bringing it up in trying to account for injuries he misinterpreted (IMO). But since you bring it up in a different context (as a possible stimulus for sexual arousal, in a child, that lasts beyond death and into the second day afterwards when it would show up in the autopsy as a source of vascular congestion in her genitalia), I’ll tell you why it doesn’t apply here. The auto-erotic practice of depriving the brain of oxygenated blood (cerebral hypoxia) is done to heighten the person’s orgasm. The only stimulation it might provide beyond the climax itself is in the mind of a person who has practiced it in the past and has had a pleasurable experience from it. This mental stimulation is not something that would be experienced by a person having it forced on them. Wecht implied it was for the visual stimulation of the person he believed was forcing it on JonBenet. I can assure you, it would not be pleasurable for her, and it would not have caused a sexual response in her.





I agree with you that the shape of the hymen itself is not enough to conclude sexual abuse. The crescent shape (according to your link) is equally common with the annular hymen. I’ve read different approximations, but it doesn’t matter which is most common because it is certainly not rare according to any source. Even the wider absence of hymen written in the AR over this article’s estimation of an 11 to 1 o’clock absence is not in itself cause for a conclusion by itself. But if you consider this along with the remaining small, retracted and eroded rim of hymen described by Dr. Meyer, I believe it all adds up (along with all the other vaginal evidence) to more than can be ignored as evidence of continuing sexual abuse leading up to JonBenet’s death.

BTW, the link you provided here is to one of the best articles I’ve read online describing what a medical professional should be looking for in screening patients for possible sexual abuse. (And in case anyone was unable to understand my earlier point about Dr. Beuf’s use of a speculum for hymen examination, there are certainly enough pictures to provide explanation.) Page 6 of the article has a good explanation of the healing process of genital injuries (more specific than any I’ve ever read) and is useful in considering the period of time in which the injuries could have occurred. In fact, it’s so good, I’m going to copy it here for the benefit of anyone who wants to read it:

Superficial genital injuries, such as abrasions, bruises, and transections, usually progress through a process of regeneration that involves four stages (Finkel, 1989, McCann et al., 1992). These stages include thrombosis and inflammation, regeneration of epithelium over the denuded surface, multiplication of new cells, and differentiation of the new epithelium. Wound healing may be complete in 48 to 72 hours, while further differentiation of new epithelium may take 5 to 7 days (McCann et al., 1992). Complete restoration of normal tissue may take up to 6 weeks. The injuries heal without scar formation.
​

Mama, I know you are sincere in your beliefs, and I think you are open to changing your opinion if you are convinced. That’s the only reason I would have considered spending as much time as I have gathering the information I believe is important in answering your posts. I’ve seen others who I know cannot be swayed from their expressed beliefs for reasons I don’t expect to know. It’s not that I think I’m capable of convincing you otherwise, but I don’t mind telling you what I read into the evidence and discussing it with you so we might both be able to learn something. I did, and I appreciate the opportunity.





(Now I have a lot of catching up to do on all the rest of the posts made since I started this.)







Sources (and Resources):

http://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/vaginitis/basics/definition/con-20022645
http://www.urmc.rochester.edu/Encyclopedia/Content.aspx?ContentTypeID=85&ContentID=P00595
Sexually Transmitted Diseases: Vaccines, Prevention, and Control, edited by Lawrence R. Stanberry, Susan L Rosenthal
http://umm.edu/health/medical/altmed/condition/vaginitis
Synopsis of Pediatric Emergency Medicine, edited by Gary Robert Fleisher, Stephen Ludwig, Benjamin K. Silverman
Pediatric Emergency Medicine,Steven G. Rothrock, John A. Brennan
http://depts.washington.edu/hcsats/...lems in Prepubertal Gyn Sugar Graham 2006.pdf

“The microscopic anatomy of the hymen”, by Maher Mahran and A. M. Saleh (Abstract)
http://medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/cell
http://en.wikipedia(dot)org/wiki/Epithelium
http://www.merriam-webster.com/medical/lamina propria
https://www.inkling.com/read/histology-cell-biology-kierszenbaum-tres-3rd/chapter-22/vagina
http://en.wikipedia(dot)org/wiki/Angiogenesis
http://en.wikipedia(dot)org/wiki/Wound_healing
http://en.wikipedia(dot)org/wiki/Hyperaemia
http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/001435.htm
http://www.corpus-delicti.com/auto.html

http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/723678_6

This was a very nice post. Good work.
Is this one of the links that Mama2JML gave you? If not, then I would recommend it. Medical Examination for Sexual Abuse: Have We Been Misled? http://tinyurl.com/mj7ghvs
...

AK

 

[BBB167893]

awww, no worries. I have a big heart. I've known you waaayyy longer, so you're more like an annoying brother. :slap: Lol...

touche!

 

[BBB167893]

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

Well, bless your heart, you poor, good hearted man...Well, Dave, I'm in your corner!!

Just a joke, borndem.

 

[DeeDee249]

How seriously Munchhausen's looked at? Perhaps she was a sickly child but that looks like a lot of doctor visits.

I don't think Munchausen-by-proxy is viable in this case. JB was not a sickly child by any means. She was a typical healthy little girl. The autopsy even describes her as "well-formed and well-nourished". Her doctor visits were probably mostly for typical childhood ailments- but there are a number of visits that seem to be for "urinary"-type problems. How many times would a mother be told to stop giving her daughter bubble baths before a doctor got suspicious as to why she had not done so? THIS doctor was also a personal friend of the Rs- so he wasn't gonna look too deep into JB's "irritations".
Kids that are victims of Munchausen-by-proxy have far more numerous and serious physical injuries and/or are said by the afflicted parent to have serious and/or life threatening diseases that they do not actually have. Some Munchausen parents even go so far as to slowly poison their children, just to get the attention when the child becomes mysteriously ill.
I just don't see it in this case.

 

[4Jacy]

here's another idea: Maybe she did talk, to the wrong person.

omg ................................!!!!

 

[madeleine]

I believe JBR's death was intentional and not accidental. I think it was a matter of necessity that she die, in the mind of the killer. Why would someone think it necessary to kill a six year old girl? Because of what she knew and would undoubtedly tell if she were allowed to live. She had to die to protect a secret. This secret was more important than JB's life, even to her parents.

one of the reasons in my list after reading TOSOS: because the killer is a desperate attention seeker who likes to "suffer"?

 

[chlban]

I don't think there was ever a plan by anyone to kill JB. I think the head blow was done either deliberately or accidentally in a fit of rage and the rest was staging.

 

[otg]

I appreciate the time & energy you put into researching this topic, and composing this post, VERY MUCH, otg. I want to dig deeper into one element of the autopsy report that you've addressed...

Of all the observations Dr. Meyer noted, I find "epithelial erosion" involving the hymen, most curious/thought provoking. Alarming? Not yet.

I have been unsuccessful in finding recent research evaluating this specific ?phenomenon?. Erosion of the epithelium does not require a physical/mechanical irritant. Vulvovaginitis, in severe or recurrent cases, causes epithelial erosion: http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/2188931-clinical

BUT, is this ?phenomenon? more often indicative of sexual abuse? Could be, I just don't know. I'd certainly like to find out. Have you come across any sources that discuss hymenal/vaginal epithelial erosion, specifically, in the prepubertal child?

Mama, I'll look to see what information I have (or can find) on epithelial erosion. I understand your questioning it, but I don't see anything in your linked article that would apply in this situation. I'm just now catching up on the last few days of posts (domestic obligations, you understand).

 

[otg]

There are some elements (strangulation before head blow) to Wecht's analysis that "make sense" to me, but I have difficulty with other elements; "this was a game that had been played before," for example.

Boy, I couldn't agree any more with you on that one. Wecht was just plain off the mark on that one.

 

[Mama2JML]

Mama, I'll look to see what information I have (or can find) on epithelial erosion. I understand your questioning it, but I don't see anything in your linked article that would apply in this situation. I'm just now catching up on the last few days of posts (domestic obligations, you understand).

Yes, I understand. "Real life" is a pretty big deal...

Regarding this portion of our discussion...

3. IOW, it had an eroded surface (resulting from repeated exposure)

Exposure to?

...something physical -- not systemic or pathogenic, and not part of a natural process of shedding dead cells.

The hymen erodes naturally over time, and medical conditions, (i.e. vaginitis) contribute to epithelial erosion. 'Everyday activities' contribute as well. Children grow, hormone levels vary (drastically) from birth to age 6, and skin sheds. This is not atypical.

“Erosion (from a medical definition): Superficial destruction of a surface by friction, pressure, ulceration, or trauma.”
​

“Epithelial erosion” is the loss of the thin layer of cells formed on the surface of (in this case) the hymenal tissue. From “The microscopic anatomy of the hymen”:

The main bulk of the hymen is formed of fibrous connective tissue, partly elastic and partly collagenous fibers. Both surfaces are covered by stratified squamous epithelium which lacks any evidence of cornification. The epithelium is thicker at the attached edge.
​

The microscopic examination done by Dr. Meyer should give him the information he needed to determine what he stated. He would see the loss of the layer of “stratified squamous epithelium” exposing the vascular sub-layer of the hymenal tissue. This is how he determined that the mucosal layer of the hymen was eroded. In the natural process of shedding cells, older cells are replaced with new ones of the same microscopic structure before the dead cells fall off. If this thin layer of cells on the surface is missing, it exposes the underlying cellular structure called the “lamina propria”. From Wikipedia:

The lamina propria (more correctly lamina propria mucosæ) is a thin layer of loose connective tissue, or dense irregular connective tissue, which lies beneath the epithelium and together with the epithelium constitutes the mucosa. As its Latin name indicates it is a characteristic component of the mucosa, "the mucosa's own special layer". Thus the term mucosa or mucous membrane always refers to the combination of the epithelium plus the lamina propria.
​

The loss of the layer of epithelium (whether it is on the hymen or in the vagina) is not natural. It is obvious microscopically. It is evidence of something having physically removed it.

BBM

I'm not sure what you mean here. I don't believe 'epithelial erosion' is necessarily (or likely) indicative of previous, recurrent, or ongoing sexual abuse.

Please consider this definition for inflammation; bolded for emphasis:

"Inflammation - a protective tissue response to injury or destruction of tissues, which serves to destroy, dilute, or wall off both the injurious agent and the injured tissues."​

...& this version of the definition for erosion, is a bit more descriptive than the definition referenced in your post above; bolded for emphasis:

"Erosion - to consume the wearing away or gradual destruction of a surface. For example, a mucosal or epidermal surface may erode as a result of inflammation, injury, or other causes, usually marked by the appearance of an ulcer."​

In a previous post, I made note of research indicating "respiratory pathogens are the bacteria isolated most often" in cases of pre-pubertal vaginitis. I also mentioned, the inflammation noted @ autopsy may have been related to a sinus infection, suffered by JonBenet weeks before her death, per Dr. Beuf. So, as I closely examined the AR (again), I found this to be an item of interest:

"Trachea: There is mild chronic inflammation in the submucosa of the trachea."​

 

[Mama2JML]

This is interesting too. From the AR:

"Thyroid: The thyroid gland is composed of normal-appearing follicles. An occasional isolated area of chronic interstitial inflammatory infiltrate is seen. There is also a small fragment of parathyroid tissue."​