Why would the Ramseys need to stage?

[Anyhoo]

This photo is on the cover of Robert Whitson's book, of which I have a copy:

JonBenét is wearing the same pajamas (depicted above) in the photos below:

How do you go from pictures like the above to the pictures of JB strangled to death in less than 24 hours? It boggles the mind to understand how such a change happens in a very short time period. Looking at the above pictures, who can say that someone at the time the pictures were taken, planned for JB's brutal murder? We cannot comprehend it and yet it could be that her death was already planned. In fact, these happy pictures may have been taken partly with the motivation in mind of proving the parents innocence.

 

[Blue Bottle 01]

It boggles the mind to understand how such a change happens in a very short time period.

I think it happened over a very long period of time leading up to the deadline of Christmas.

 

[UKGuy]

This photo is on the cover of Robert Whitson's book, of which I have a copy:

JonBenét is wearing the same pajamas (depicted above) in the photos below:

Mama2JML,
Thanks for the photos. The pajamas look more white than pink to me. Anyone disagree?

.

 

[UKGuy]

I have only seen a photo of JB from the waist up, wearing the pink pajama top. I have't seen a full-length photo that shows the bottoms. We've all seen the one of a smiling JB wearing the pink top, and of course the one with JB and Patsy, with Patsy gripping JB's arm tightly. If it wasn't for the unopened presents, I'd almost say this was taken Christmas NIGHT- after they got back from the White's. I don't see a sequin star on the shirt in the photo- it looks like a thermal shirt, one that matches the long johns. They often come in sets for kids, not separate like in adult sizes. I wish there was a way to make that photo bigger. Also- notice the FAO Schwartz wrapping paper on some of the gifts- the same paper as found on the unwrapped gifts in the WC.
I will say that it breaks my hear to see pure childish joy, knowing that the child will be dead-molested with her skull nearly cracked in half- hours later.

DeeDee249,
Having compared the photos I reckon its a reddish light on white pajamas reflected making the pajamas appear pink?

Yes I noted the FAO Schwartz logos, such a shame for JonBenet one minute its pure happiness and joy next she having to endure abuse, so sad!

The White Pajamas answer a lot of questions, not least why JonBenet was wearing longjohns in the wine-cellar.

Now when I pair the size-12's with the longjohns, I see someone attempting to make it look like JonBenet had been in bed and that she was still wearing her Wednesday Bloomingdales?

Now did JonBenet normally wear her daytime underwear to bed, or did she change before bed etc?

ETA: With the childrens medical records unavailable. I wonder if BR ever exhibited any AE behaviour?


.

 

[DeeDee249]

DeeDee249,
Having compared the photos I reckon its a reddish light on white pajamas reflected making the pajamas appear pink?

Yes I noted the FAO Schwartz logos, such a shame for JonBenet one minute its pure happiness and joy next she having to endure abuse, so sad!

The White Pajamas answer a lot of questions, not least why JonBenet was wearing longjohns in the wine-cellar.

Now when I pair the size-12's with the longjohns, I see someone attempting to make it look like JonBenet had been in bed and that she was still wearing her Wednesday Bloomingdales?

Now did JonBenet normally wear her daytime underwear to bed, or did she change before bed etc?

ETA: With the childrens medical records unavailable. I wonder if BR ever exhibited any AE behaviour?


.

I doubt it, as far as BR and any AE behavior. I just don't get that sense of it with him. I have never thought of the ligature in this case as being an erotic device. Those situations usually have a ligature that truly functions as a noose. The release and tightening is part of the AE process. This cord was simply pulled tight. The ligature furrow does not show evidence of repeated loosening and tightening. While boys that age can definitely experience arousal and be interested in sexual exploration (especially with a sibling), BR seems a little immature to be involved in an AE or erotic game with the cord.
If that were to have occurred, there would have to have been an older male involved too, IMO. I don't see BR as doing this on his own with JB.

As for JB's underwear, without evidence of the Bloomies panties in her own size and without police having found any of the rest of the size 12 set in the house, we really just don't know whether she was wearing smaller Wednesday panties before her redressing. I know police checked the drawers. I don't know if they checked the packed luggage and plastic bags (which were used for luggage to save weight on the private plane). As for kids' bedtime underwear habits- families have different habits. Some kids (like my own and grandkids) put on clean undies after their nightly bath. This usually ends when the kids get old enough to take a morning shower instead. Some kids don't wear undies under their pajamas. Some do. Mine did, but even if put on clean that night, a fresh pair was still put on in the morning. Kids are all different. If a child falls asleep before a bath (and Patsy was known to be pretty lax about baths), the parent will usually just put the PJs on and leave on the underwear the child was already wearing.

 

[Blue Bottle 01]

without police having found any of the rest of the size 12 set in the house, .

The rest of the package was turned over to police some time later. Did you know that?

 

[DeeDee249]

The rest of the package was turned over to police some time later. Did you know that?

Of course I knew that. It was turned over to LE by an R attorney 5 years later, with the explanation that it had been packed in a box from the move to Atlanta. I was referring to the FACT that none of the 6 remaining panties in the 7-piece set was found in the home when LE searched it. Patsy claimed they were in her drawer, they weren't. Obviously, they had never been removed from the pack at all- as they were still in the pack (presumably with the Wednesday pair missing).
Bloomingdales changes the prints from season to season for the girls novelty panty sets like this. From the coroner's description of the panties on JB and my own experience buying such sets for little girls, I assume each pair had the same rosebud print, but in a different color for each pair with the day of the week embroidered in the waistband. So it would have been easy to tell if the set sent to LE matched in fabric and style the pair that was on JB.
There would have been a way to prove the panties returned 5 years later were offered for sale at the NYC Bloomingdales in November of 1996m when Patsy said she bought them. But I don't know if this was ever done. All we know is that an opened package was sent to LE 5 years later.

 

[MyBelle]

Of course I knew that. It was turned over to LE by an R attorney 5 years later, with the explanation that it had been packed in a box from the move to Atlanta. I was referring to the FACT that none of the 6 remaining panties in the 7-piece set was found in the home when LE searched it. Patsy claimed they were in her drawer, they weren't. Obviously, they had never been removed from the pack at all- as they were still in the pack (presumably with the Wednesday pair missing).
Bloomingdales changes the prints from season to season for the girls novelty panty sets like this. From the coroner's description of the panties on JB and my own experience buying such sets for little girls, I assume each pair had the same rosebud print, but in a different color for each pair with the day of the week embroidered in the waistband. So it would have been easy to tell if the set sent to LE matched in fabric and style the pair that was on JB.
There would have been a way to prove the panties returned 5 years later were offered for sale at the NYC Bloomingdales in November of 1996m when Patsy said she bought them. But I don't know if this was ever done. All we know is that an opened package was sent to LE 5 years later.

BBM. When was the home searched? Do you recall?

 

[Mama2JML]

BBM. When was the home searched? Do you recall?

Dec. 26-27, 29 & Jan. 30-Feb 5.

 

[RANCH]

Dec. 26-27, 29 & Jan. 30-Feb 5.

Do we know if LE specifically searched for size 12 underwear during these searches? Were they listed on a search warrant affidavit?

 

[MyBelle]

Dec. 26-27, 29 & Jan. 30-Feb 5.

Thanks! Very strange that the package wasn't found in the house and yet made it to Atlanta and sent to the cops 5 years later. I wonder if that package had been packed for their trip to Michigan.

 

[UKGuy]

Thanks! Very strange that the package wasn't found in the house and yet made it to Atlanta and sent to the cops 5 years later. I wonder if that package had been packed for their trip to Michigan.

MyBelle,
How convenient, found in a packing crate by a non-ramsey I beliive, how come they knew they were so significant? If I found underwear I would just ignore and move on, like its just underwear, so what!

What is so interesting about the size-12's is that the R's decided they had to be found. As forensic evidence they are useless, they would never make the production list at trial. The chain of custody has been broken.

Now my take on this aspect is that BR opened the wrapped gift to Patsy's niece that afternoon and noted the underwear. Later that night he fetched the size-12's and redressed JonBenet in the Wednesday pair because he thought thats what Patsy would notice if she pulled down JonBenet's longjohns?

I doubt either PR or JR would do this since they would recognize that the size difference is so obvious.

.

 

[MyBelle]

MyBelle,
How convenient, found in a packing crate by a non-ramsey I beliive, how come they knew they were so significant? If I found underwear I would just ignore and move on, like its just underwear, so what!

What is so interesting about the size-12's is that the R's decided they had to be found. As forensic evidence they are useless, they would never make the production list at trial. The chain of custody has been broken.

Now my take on this aspect is that BR opened the wrapped gift to Patsy's niece that afternoon and noted the underwear. Later that night he fetched the size-12's and redressed JonBenet in the Wednesday pair because he thought thats what Patsy would notice if she pulled down JonBenet's longjohns?

I doubt either PR or JR would do this since they would recognize that the size difference is so obvious.

.

I agree that the chain of custody was broken so it was pointless to send it five years later yet they did so. It may not have been the same package. Would Patsy buy just one package or would she buy two? The bigger question is why didn't LE find that opened package when they searched the house? Burke was not a criminal mastermind who would have the foresight to ditch the package altogether. My guess is that the opened package was ditched away from the house by either Patsy or John and the second one was not seized because it was unopened.

I think the package was in the same location as other stored gifts in the basement and a pair placed on her body either as a matter of convenience or because John intended on moving the body from the house and Patsy wanted it to appear someone else placed those panties on JonBenet.

From the dripping sarcasm directed at John in the ransom note, maybe she or someone close to her was hoping that by sending that package to cops, they would finally arrest John.

 

[PPKik]

How do you go from pictures like the above to the pictures of JB strangled to death in less than 24 hours? It boggles the mind to understand how such a change happens in a very short time period. Looking at the above pictures, who can say that someone at the time the pictures were taken, planned for JB's brutal murder? We cannot comprehend it and yet it could be that her death was already planned. In fact, these happy pictures may have been taken partly with the motivation in mind of proving the parents innocence.

I have never seen these pictures and I am flabbergasted that they exist.

Although I don't post on these threads because it has been so long since I have read and kept up with the case, except for buying Kolar's book, I feel like putting in my brief thoughts after just seeing these photos and then reading your comments.

I have always believed the RDI, more because of the ransom note than even the totality of all the other circumstantial evidence put together.

But, I have never believed it was premeditated in the sense that JBR's murder was planned ahead to occur on that time and day, for reasons we could never fathom, or for some other nefarious long-planned purpose.

As malevolent as I believe certain people are, I do believe that whatever happened that night involved something that had been ongoing, involving the chronic sexual abuse, and, that it happened as a result of something related to that chronic abuse.

That does not mean that I think it was spontaneous or an accident, because you can't murder someone spontaneously twice, but I just don't think it was planned, though it was premeditated shortly before the murder happened, in my opinion.

It would help enormously if there were some way to definitively know which happened first, the garroting or the head blow.

 

[UKGuy]

I agree that the chain of custody was broken so it was pointless to send it five years later yet they did so. It may not have been the same package. Would Patsy buy just one package or would she buy two? The bigger question is why didn't LE find that opened package when they searched the house? Burke was not a criminal mastermind who would have the foresight to ditch the package altogether. My guess is that the opened package was ditched away from the house by either Patsy or John and the second one was not seized because it was unopened.

I think the package was in the same location as other stored gifts in the basement and a pair placed on her body either as a matter of convenience or because John intended on moving the body from the house and Patsy wanted it to appear someone else placed those panties on JonBenet.

From the dripping sarcasm directed at John in the ransom note, maybe she or someone close to her was hoping that by sending that package to cops, they would finally arrest John.

MyBelle,
You fail to note BR opened the Partially Opened gifts on Christmas Day. Everything else is pure staging and open to interpretation.

.

 

[Linda7NJ]

MyBelle,

How convenient, found in a packing crate by a non-ramsey I beliive, how come they knew they were so significant? If I found underwear I would just ignore and move on, like its just underwear, so what!



What is so interesting about the size-12's is that the R's decided they had to be found. As forensic evidence they are useless, they would never make the production list at trial. The chain of custody has been broken.



Now my take on this aspect is that BR opened the wrapped gift to Patsy's niece that afternoon and noted the underwear. Later that night he fetched the size-12's and redressed JonBenet in the Wednesday pair because he thought thats what Patsy would notice if she pulled down JonBenet's longjohns?



I doubt either PR or JR would do this since they would recognize that the size difference is so obvious.



.

I think Patsy put the size 12's on her....she knew JonBenet wanted them and after she was dead it became part of the "undoing"


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[UKGuy]

I think Patsy put the size 12's on her....she knew JonBenet wanted them and after she was dead it became part of the "undoing"


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Linda7NJ,
A dead person wanted them? Are you serious, the size 12's are staging alike the ligature!


.

 

[Linda7NJ]

Linda7NJ,

A dead person wanted them? Are you serious, the size 12's are staging alike the ligature!





.

JonBenet wanted them when she was alive. Pasty said no, that they were for someone else IIRC JonBenet was a little upset by that because she really really liked them. Patsy talks about that in one of the transcribed interviews.

IMO covering her in her favorite blanket, and those panties were "undoing"


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[DeeDee249]

BBM. When was the home searched? Do you recall?

It was searched (and crime scene photos taken) the day she was found. Possibly after that, too. The DA wanted to turn the house back over to the family that very same day, over police objections. The first searches only included the basement and JB's room, later pics were taken of the dining area and kitchen. The group of friends and clergy actually WIPED the counters down and cleaned up. For all we know, they likely wiped away evidence. This crime scene was so contaminated, between Det Arndt allowing people to wander around, suggesting to JR that HE wander around (he didn't wander- he went straight to the wine cellar where JB's body was) and the damage done by the friends that I doubt any evidence from the home wouldn't have been challenged in a trial.
Arndt had a gun- she could have corralled them all in one room and said "Nobody leaves and nobody touches anything". That's what she SHOULD have done. But she didn't. She allowed the body to be touched and moved and covered with an afghan, and touched and moved JB herself, too. If I were her superiors, she'd have been fired just for that appalling breach of protocol.

 

[PPKik]

Linda7NJ,
A dead person wanted them? Are you serious, the size 12's are staging alike the ligature!


.

I assumed she meant "wanted them" as in originally wanted them, and, of course, PR had to keep the theme going, even in the absurdly large size, with the staging.

Did LE notice this or did the ME? I don't remember.