GUILTY WI - 12-Year-Old Girls Stab Friend 19 Times for Slenderman, Waukesha, 31 May 2014 #1

[Chickadee117]

On Nancy Grace just now it was reported after the stabbing the two girls told the victim to lie still and breathe slow and they would go for help. They walked away looking back at her and thinking they'd killed her. Thank goodness the victim crawled to seek help on her own.

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

I have to say as much as I want these kids punished and dealt with correctly they are minors and I think that they should be more protected at this point and their words should not be being published.

Demonizing 12 year olds doesn't help anything.

 

[Celeste]

Could them being charged as adults eliminate some rule about parents being there for the interviews?
I have to assume at the very least they have lawyers representing them during the interviews.

I suppose that's possible. I'm really interested in the answer to this question. I guess I'm just not used to such frankly self-incriminating statements anymore! I agree with the above poster who saw each girl trying to paint herself as less of a leader than the other. But still, they both are definitely incriminating themselves in this.
I'm just really grateful to see this. I hope it was the families behind them, encouraging them to be as honest as possible. Wouldn't that be a new twist for us? lol

 

[Spice]

O/T!

I, for one, take great umbrage with your degradation of Mom Jeans!

Mom Jean Wearers Unite!!! :giggle:

Come on all, life needs a little levity.....

High waist have been back in trend for quite a while...Mom Jeans are all the rage. (I'm not kidding) :seeya:

 

[blue22]

Also, can someone help me understand where the parents would be during the interviews? Would the girls have to have spoken to their parents before their interviews?

They are allowed to waive their right against self-incrimination. They were read their Miranda rights, so nothing illegal was done by the cops. They chose to talk without their parents present. The girls did not demand an attorney, so one was not present.

If the cops read the Miranda rights and they choose to speak, it's all legit. Remember, in Wisconsin someone who commits murder and is over the age of 10, is treated as an adult. Hope that helps.

 

[Spice]

Is it just me or is the girl quite articulate for 12? I think I may be mentally comparing it to the bullying case in FL last year (two female bullies and a suicide, I think they were all girls 12-13). The language used there, especially on their social media, was very juvenile and SMS-y.

(Or are they both articulate? I haven't done a lot of MSM reading so I don't have a clear picture in my head of which individual is which, when the quotes are being posted.)

Broken record, but it's reminding me of the way Parker and Hulme spoke (and Parker's diary entries). Those two were also described as being aloof and non-remorseful immediately after their arrests.

Weir has the short brown hair and black framed glasses.

Geyser has the long brown hair and black framed glasses.

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

They are allowed to waive their right against self-incrimination. They were read their Miranda rights, so nothing illegal was done by the cops. They chose to talk without their parents present. The girls did not demand an attorney, so one was not present.

If the cops read the Miranda rights and they choose to speak, it's all legit. Remember, in Wisconsin someone who commits murder and is over the age of 10, is treated as an adult. Hope that helps.

No. They are minors. It is not the same thing.. It works differently.

 

[Ausgirl]

"When you think back to being 12 or 13, relationships are intense," Kinscherff said.

And it's that intensity, developed in isolation — and without oversight or moderation — that in rare cases may lead to extreme behaviors. The children feed off each other's thoughts and reaffirm each other's increasingly unrealistic appraisal of the world.

"There are lots and lots of teenagers who play video games and who played Dungeons & Dragons, who absolutely understood this was a fantasy world, this wasn't real. But there were very rare cases where kids developed an isolated way of functioning and began to operate as though it were real," said Kinscherff, who is also associate vice president for community relations at the Massachusetts School of Professional Psychology in Boston.

In exceedingly rare cases, groups of closely knit friends attacked one another.

http://www.jsonline.com/news/crime/...-mental-evaluation-b99283879z1-261736551.html


I thought this link was worth posting again - there's information on the lawyer seeking mh evaluations -- and seeing as these forensic pyschologists are all over it, I expect they might not have a very long wait.

Also, some expert insights into why a couple of 12 year olds would do this.

 

[blue22]

No. They are minors. It is not the same thing.. It works differently.

What I'm saying is, they did not require their parents or lawyers present...if they waived their right against self incrimination after miranda. Which they did.

And yes, because they are older then 10 they are handled in the adult system.

 

[Ausgirl]

I find it interesting that in that link I just posted, it's said that the biggest factor in this event, beyond even Slenderman, was the relationship the girls had with one another.

I truly think there is merit in looking at other cases where two young ones have teamed up to kill, in order to understand these kids better. What these professionals are saying is, there's a certain psychological 'chemistry' between some pairs of kids that provokes them to act out violent fantasies.

Oh -- just to add: they also use the word "isolation" a lot -- I can say this from experience, this doesn't *have to* mean the kids were left alone for long periods of time. I had a similar pair of teenagers spiralling into this sort of relationship in MY home. And I was *watching*. Thank goodness. I put an end to it, before it escalated. But my gut told me there was something not right about them "acting like twins" you know, that level of closeness. And I was right to do that.

I believe this can happen right under the noses of caring parents, because I've seen it happen in a far, far less harmful way.

 

[blue22]

I find it interesting that in that link I just posted, it's said that the biggest factor in this event, beyond even Slenderman, was the relationship the girls had with one another.

I truly think there is merit in looking at other cases where two young ones have teamed up to kill, in order to understand these kids better. What these professionals are saying is, there's a certain psychological 'chemistry' between some pairs of kids that provokes them to act out violent fantasies.

Oh -- just to add: they also use the word "isolation" a lot -- I can say this from experience, this doesn't *have to* mean the kids were left alone for long periods of time. I had a similar pair of teenagers spiralling into this sort of relationship in MY home. And I was *watching*. Thank goodness. I put an end to it, before it escalated. But my gut told me there was something not right about them "acting like twins" you know, that level of closeness. And I was right to do that.

I believe this can happen right under the noses of caring parents, because I've seen it happen in a far, far less harmful way.

I think isolation can also mean isolation of themselves from the real outside world. They probably withdrew into each other and their heads. With girls it can be hard. I think it's very natural at this age to have that one friend that is always there. If the girls were clever enough, their relationship could have appeared totally normal to those around them. I agree, I think it can happen to any parent.

 

[ellemo]

Is it just me or is the girl quite articulate for 12? I think I may be mentally comparing it to the bullying case in FL last year (two female bullies and a suicide, I think they were all girls 12-13). The language used there, especially on their social media, was very juvenile and SMS-y.

(Or are they both articulate? I haven't done a lot of MSM reading so I don't have a clear picture in my head of which individual is which, when the quotes are being posted.)

Broken record, but it's reminding me of the way Parker and Hulme spoke (and Parker's diary entries). Those two were also described as being aloof and non-remorseful immediately after their arrests.

No, my daughter is 12 and she is very articulate. I am also the leader of a Girl Scout Troop of 12 and 13 years old. Most of them are very articulate as well. You can carry on an adult conversation with almost all of them, though some of the girl's attention span will wander. and they use realtively little social media shorthand. I am amazed, sometimes, of the high level things my daughter and her friends write or forward on their social media accounts

I just checked my daughter's Instagram and her friends as well and see no mention of Slenderman, though my daughter did say she kind of heard of him.

He and her friends post things like

OMG 1 Direction <3

Me & my best bud

"Whenever I hear people say that classical music is boring, I just want to remind them that Tchaikovsky&#8217;s 1812 Overature called for a cannon to be fired a total of 16 times."

"The starfish are coming. They will eat us all, take over the world and fly around on cows. " (which is very articulate, I guess, but after reading all this stuff I am left to wonder if it is just a silly nothing or code for something)

 

[Spice]

Ms. Norris...Thank you so much for that breakdown of what each girl said in their statements. Really helpful.

 

[Ausgirl]

Bleh, I meant to add - on "isolation" -- what I observed was the two girls in my home slowly isolating themselves from other friends over time. It was more than "best friends" and neither girl is gay but it was more like a love affair than simply 'best friends'.

And I think that's an interesting dynamic, the "girl-crush" thing, and "no-one else 'gets' me" -- while they're isolating themselves from parents, friends..

It scared me, to be honest, and I think it worried my girl as well, she was kind of relieved when I banned them from hanging out -- again -- as I'd done this several years earlier, and what was odd was, they picked up right where they left off as far as that dynamic goes - so strange.

It's so easy to pass this off as 'cute BFF stuff', but sooner or later it rolls into something negative if one of the kids is not balanced (my girl's friend was a LOT more disturbed than she ever let me see, talk about actress) -- they draw the other one right in, it really is a spiral.

And I was watching them like a hawk.

 

[tlcya]

But but but so many keep saying she was doing NORMAL things.

Carrying a sledgehammer and saying she can do anything with it
isn't freakin normal. :banghead:

bbm/cbm

I have a feeling that her peers are telling a different story from her parents. I don't really find that odd. We all act differently depending on the crowd we are with to some degree. Her parents may have had no clue and even the classmates had no clue this was coming but both sets of friends, family and acquaintances may have seen different behaviors and sides to these girls.

I personally find it not a good idea to let your 12 year old have access to the web for long periods or unsupervised/unmonitored but I am not condemning parents at this point for not picking up on the fact that something was going wrong. Too soon for me to be comfortable with that. But kids show themselves in different ways to different folks/groups. The behave in ways they know they can with each group IME. With grandparents and other adults my children tend to show their best sides. To me, they show their least attractive sides. I have no clue how my kids present themselves to their peers when I am not around. I hope they do me proud. no reason has ever come up for me to think they do not, but do I KNOW? No. Because I may not bee there every second they are with peer group.

 

[ellemo]

I find it interesting that in that link I just posted, it's said that the biggest factor in this event, beyond even Slenderman, was the relationship the girls had with one another.

I agree. Slenderman is just a catalyst. It could have been the boogeyman, bloody Mary, religion or a million other things.

(I am also not convinced that both girls were really convinced of the true existence of Slenderman)

 

[bt208]

I read the police statements, finally. My reaction while reading was, 'OK, now I agree, they really were lost in a fantasy world.'
But once I re-read, all I could think was, 'these statements are completely contrived.'
I'm starting to think now that they even intended to get caught. They've now become legends themselves. Part of the continuing creepypasta story.

 

[inthedark14]

When I first started googling around about the whole slender man thing, it reminded me of books I read in grade school. Scary Stories to Tell in the Dark. Scary Stories to Tell in the Dark - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

These books were first published in 1981 and are for a suggested reading level of ages 9 - 12.

They scared the crap out of me when I was a kid, but they were oh so much fun. Here are some of the illustrated images from the books, I understand that when there was reprint in later years that they were changed a bit. https://www.google.com/search?q=scary+stories+to+tell+in+the+dark&espv=2&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=SRuRU8OaNMmqyAS_54KYAw&sqi=2&ved=0CAYQ_AUoAQ&biw=1600&bih=799

I do realize that these books were on the list of "most frequently challenged books 90-99" but so was Harry Potter.

I guess the point I'm trying to make is that is in no way unusual or odd for kids this age and younger to be reading "horror" stories. It's not uncommon for them to want to scare themselves with scary images and stories and then tell their friends about it.

I didn't find these books at the library or borrow them from some neglected and unattended friend. My mother purchased them for me through my Christian school's Scholastic Book Club program.

Just because relatively young children read scary stories doesn't mean that they don't understand that the things that happen are wrong and bad. Hence the reason that they are scary stories.

 

[blue22]

But but but so many keep saying she was doing NORMAL things.

Carrying a sledgehammer and saying she can do anything with it
isn't freakin normal. :banghead:

bbm/cbm

I read that sledgehammer quote, and I honestly question her story's authenticity. That's literally the only statement of something like that I've seen, and it truly sounds like (IMO) a tween girl telling a neat story.

 

[Ausgirl]

I read the police statements, finally. My reaction while reading was, 'OK, now I agree, they really were lost in a fantasy world.'
But once I re-read, all I could think was, 'these statements are completely contrived.'
I'm starting to think now that they even intended to get caught. They've now become legends themselves. Part of the continuing creepypasta story.

^ That's a *really* interesting thought.

It's a pretty sophisticated motive for kids this age, but children with high intelligence can cook things up far beyond their years. I think it's very worth considering as a motive, but my instinct is that if this is so, it'll be the underlying motive of one child and not the other.

Based on what I've studied, and my own experiences with a negative duo of girls, there's --always-- the one kid who's leading the fantasy/ideals/whatever they're into. The other one tags along and absorbs it more and more as time goes on.