GUILTY WI - Apple River multiple stabbing; one teen dead, 4 other people hurt; 52 year old man arrested, July 2022

[Gardenista]

Care to elaborate for those of us not able to watch? Only if you can, of course!

He told all of this wild stuff about Miu to police a month ago that he admitted in court wasn't true. From what I recall, mostly pedo type activity. I lost focus because I was so shocked, going to listen to it again tonight.

 

[IDK]

He told all of this wild stuff about Miu to police a month ago that he admitted in court wasn't true. From what I recall, mostly pedo type activity. I lost focus because I was so shocked, going to listen to it again tonight.

Thank you for sharing— I wonder what the motive for all the false information is?

 

[Gardenista]

Thank you for sharing— I wonder what the motive for all the false information is?

I don't think the defense was ever able to wrestle it out of him, but I'll report back if he did.

 

[Mack the Knife]

See attached video from yesterday. AJ is with the Carlson Group as are the others who were stabbed, Ryhely, Dante, Tony, and Madi.

Isaac killed from his group. Isaac was the only person killed/injured from his group of friends.

Around timestamp 3:00.

This is confusing to me. The initial confrontation was between NM and Isaac's group. I'm not sure if the audio is available (it isn't in this video), but it looks like Madison then comes in pretty hot and is the primary one in her group (the Carlson group) interacting with NM, with the rest of the group walking towards but hanging back a little.

Then, the situation continues to escalate and NM (allegedly) punches Madison, resulting in her sunglasses falling off of her face. Looks like there is a tussle at this point with NM getting shoved around and falling into the water a couple of times before he gets up and starts using the knife.

It doesn't seem like the full sequence of events has really been laid out yet, but it doesn't appear that Isaac was stabbed first, yet he is the only person who died from their injuries, and the only person from his group who was stabbed. It's just very surprising to me that the original beef was with Isaac's group, but it is mostly members of the Carlson group that were stabbed.

 

[ch_13]

I hear ya, but I believe there is a bunch of lying going on. Defense said in their opening there is body cam footage that shows there is no mark on the woman's face who said she was punched. Each of the witnesses have said they saw her being punched and the dad said her face was swollen and red where she was punched. If that body cam shows no marks on her face, I throw out ALL of their testimony.

I haven't been watching the trial, but I wanted to comment on this. Bruising from a punch isn't always immediately apparent. It can take hours or even days for the skin to discolor and the area to swell. So just because something isn't visible in body cam footage doesn't mean that it didn't happen.

 

[Gardenista]

I haven't been watching the trial, but I wanted to comment on this. Bruising from a punch isn't always immediately apparent. It can take hours or even days for the skin to discolor and the area to swell. So just because something isn't visible in body cam footage doesn't mean that it didn't happen.

I understand, but the father said it was red and swollen when she walked back across the river.

 

[Chimera]

@cathyrusson

Stabbing victim AJ Martin is on the stand. https://youtube.com/watch?v=SIWIMVSgN2g

View attachment 494736

View attachment 494737


12:18 PM · Apr 3, 2024

That horrific scar looks like not just a quick inwards stabbing motion, but like NM pushed the weapon in this young man and dragged it downwards or upwards.
I am changing my mind about the accused being a victim of what amounted to some 'taunts', 'name calling', and a few 'shoves'.
Not saying it's a good idea ever.
NM's brutal response was undeserved.

A young man is dead and he is never coming back.
Some others will bear scars forever.
Omo.

 

[Mack the Knife]

I've watched the video several more times around the time of the "punch". (Specifically, this video starting at 2:50.)

Starting at around 2:50, it looks like the group is maybe taunting and jeering at NM a bit. Madison and another woman (Rhyley?) appear to be interacting directly with NM, both gesturing with their hands maybe a few inches away from his chest and face area (Madison is doing some pointing, the woman who might be Rhyley has her phone in her hand). At 3:03, I think it looks like Madison touches NM's chest. This doesn't look like a shove or anything, but it does look like she makes physical contact, and the general atmosphere must be very tense.
Now some speculation: I could very easily see a person in NM's position react to hands gesturing, sometimes near their face, and being touched (even lightly) by someone angry with them by putting a hand up and trying to push someone's hands off of you or away from you, or entirely trying to shove them away. I think NM probably did move to make contact with Madison, and either he succeeded and knocked off her sunglasses, or she moved to avoid him which knocked off her sunglasses. From the footage, I highly highly doubt that NM landed any "punch" as a typical person would define it. I also think it's not surprising (or necessarily lying) for a person who was "whacked" in the head to say they've been punched, or for their friends to identify that as what they saw.

Back to description not speculation: after the contact at 3:03, the camera moves quickly side to side and you can see some of Isaac's group (Alex and I think Landon in the Cancun hat) laughing, but then Owen stepping towards the action with his arms in front of him, and it looks like Ryan might have been the one to push NM into the water that first time. NM is falling into the water by 3:07, so the alleged punch must have occured between 3:03 and 3:07. While in the water, a man with dark shorts (grey at top, fade to black at the bottom) steps from NM's left side (closer to the camera) to his right (farther from the camera) and swings at his face. I think the man in dark shorts is probably Dante, but I can't tell for sure.

A man in yellow shorts (AJ) also shoves at NM as he attempts to get up, and at 3:12 NM is crouching and about to stand up and lifts his hand in front of him (the knife is in this hand but I can't see it in the video*) as AJ lunges toward him. NM's knife hits AJs abdomen as AJ shoves him back into the water. As NM falls backwards, his hand seems to move slightly up before withdrawing from AJ's torso. A man in jean cut off shorts (Anthony/Tony) starts to come between NM and AJ/the rest of his group and appears to be attempting to deescalate. At this point (3:19), you can see a woman (presumably Rhyley) has already been slashed on her side.

 

[Mack the Knife]

I've watched the video several more times around the time of the "punch". (Specifically, this video starting at 2:50.)

A man in yellow shorts (AJ) also shoves at NM as he attempts to get up, and at 3:12 NM is crouching and about to stand up and lifts his hand in front of him (the knife is in this hand but I can't see it in the video*) as AJ lunges toward him. NM's knife hits AJs abdomen as AJ shoves him back into the water. As NM falls backwards, his hand seems to move slightly up before withdrawing from AJ's torso. A man in jean cut off shorts (Anthony/Tony) starts to come between NM and AJ/the rest of his group and appears to be attempting to deescalate. At this point (3:19), you can see a woman (presumably Rhyley) has already been slashed on her side.

That horrific scar looks like not just a quick inwards stabbing motion, but like NM pushed the weapon in this young man and dragged it downwards or upwards.
I am changing my mind about the accused being a victim of what amounted to some 'taunts', name calling, and a few 'shoves'.
Not saying it's a good idea ever.
NM's brutal response was undeserved.

A young man is dead and he is never coming back.
Some others will bear scars forever.
Omo.

Snipping myself.

I agree, AJ's injuries look horrific and brutal. But the video makes it look far briefer than you would expect for the severity of the injury.

Asterisk from above comments: *I watched this video several times and didn't realize that this was the point at which AJ was stabbed until I watched part of the opening statement from the prosecution. I can see how the people involved wouldn't know that a knife was involved. If this was the only time NM stabbed AJ, I don't think it's reasonable to interpret NM as intentionally "gutting" AJ. NM was actively falling backwards as he stabbed AJ, and did not have complete control over his body (ie. he probably wasn't thinking about dragging the knife through AJ's abdomen as he fell).

 

[Chimera]

Snipping myself.

I agree, AJ's injuries look horrific and brutal. But the video makes it look far briefer than you would expect for the severity of the injury.

Asterisk from above comments: *I watched this video several times and didn't realize that this was the point at which AJ was stabbed until I watched part of the opening statement from the prosecution. I can see how the people involved wouldn't know that a knife was involved. If this was the only time NM stabbed AJ, I don't think it's reasonable to interpret NM as intentionally "gutting" AJ. NM was actively falling backwards as he stabbed AJ, and did not have complete control over his body (ie. he probably wasn't thinking about dragging the knife through AJ's abdomen as he fell).

I've viewed the videos as well, and afaik; recollections may vary.

I didn't use the word 'gutting'.
Although you may have interpreted my description that way ?

My .02 is that NM could have stood up and walked away from all of them.
Omo.

 

[housewife]

He drew the knife (and opened it) when he was being confronted by the 2 women. But he kept it down at his side. The prosecution showed some stills of it at his side in their opening statement. And the defense admitted it in their opening statement but said, "yes, but he didn't brandish it." (As if that made it alright?) And he had that silly smirk on his face.

Here's a screen capture from the live Law&Crime coverage from day 1 of the trial. You can see the knife in his hand when talking to the two women. (and link to the video: L&C live video - day 1 )
View attachment 494773

I saw Miu had drawn his knife, while these two women were telling him to go away.
Also, there is nobody in the distance behind Miu at this point. He could have stopped harassing them and left them alone, but chose not to.
If Miu was scared of a group of guys, why punch the girl?
It's as if Miu wanted a physical confrontation...

I also read that Miu lied to the police many times, pretending not to know what happened and then claimed the group of people were also armed with knives. It also appears he just walked back to his buddies and... neglected to tell anyone he had just attempted to murder multiple people a minute earlier?

And I mean, the victims were truly "gutted". Miu plunged his knife into a person's belly and dragged the knife upward. I believe Miu was also holding the victim's shoulder with one hand while gutting with the other. That didn't look like a panicked poke from a scared old man. One victim's injury was so long the surgeons didn't have to open him up to operate!!

It is very bizarre and very concerning to me that some people think Miu is innocent, or deserved to kill people because "These kids acted foolish and got their friend killed!" Um, no. Hard stop. The guy with a knife had the choice to walk away at any time from their words.

While rude, I never saw a physical threat from the group of people? Yes, they called him names. They were yelling, repeatedly, for Miu to leave them alone and go away. Miu refused, and chose violence.

Edit: words

 

[bobbymkii]

I'm only caught up to day 2 in following this trial. The only thing I'm certain of is that every single eyewitness I've seen so far was significantly more intoxicated at the time of the incident than they are willing to admit, and it's destroying their credibility.

 

[Snoopster]

I saw Miu had drawn his knife, while these two women were telling him to go away.
Also, there is nobody in the distance behind Miu at this point. He could have stopped harassing them and left them alone, but chose not to.
If Miu was scared of a group of guys, why punch the girl?
It's as if Miu wanted a physical confrontation...

I also read that Miu lied to the police many times, pretending not to know what happened and then claimed the group of people were also armed with knives. It also appears he just walked back to his buddies and... neglected to tell anyone he had just attempted to murder multiple people a minute earlier?

And I mean, the victims were truly "gutted". Miu plunged his knife into a person's belly and dragged the knife upward. I believe Miu was also holding the victim's shoulder with one hand while gutting with the other. That didn't look like a panicked poke from a scared old man. One victim's injury was so long the surgeons didn't have to open him up to operate!!

It is very bizarre and very concerning to me that some people think Miu is innocent, or deserved to kill people because "These kids acted foolish and got their friend killed!" Um, no. Hard stop. The guy with a knife had the choice to walk away at any time from their words.

While rude, I never saw a physical threat from the group of people? Yes, they called him names. They were yelling, repeatedly, for Miu to leave them alone and go away. Miu refused, and chose violence.

Edit: words

I agree with you.

Yes, the witnesses are unreliable and are trying to save face and/or simply don't remember all of the exact details since everything happened so fast and everyone had been drinking.

But we have the video. And the video shows that Miu refused to withdraw even though he was asked many times. Not only did he refuse to withdraw, but he pulled out his knife. This was before there was any physical risk to him. It's almost as if he hoped to provoke a confrontation where he could use his knife.

 

[Chimera]

I'm only caught up to day 2 in following this trial. The only thing I'm certain of is that every single eyewitness I've seen so far was significantly more intoxicated at the time of the incident than they are willing to admit, and it's destroying their credibility.

The hospital that treated the wounded would have checked for alcohol and , umm... other substances as well, though.
Nothing has come out about that yet, afaik ?
In some cases they draw blood in case you need a transfusion.
Omo.

 

[Mack the Knife]

I've viewed the videos as well, and afaik; recollections may vary.

I didn't use the word 'gutting'.
Although you may have interpreted my description that way ?

My .02 is that NM could have stood up and walked away from all of them.
Omo.

I didn't mean to imply that you used the word "gutting".

I had included an asterisk in my previous comments, and wanted to expand on that. I felt that my interpretation of the few seconds of video that I'd tagged with an asterisk in my previous comment was related to your comment about what the scar seems to indicate about the stabbing.

I agree the scar looks very bad, which is why I was shocked by what the video seems to show of how the injury was inflicted upon AJ. It happens extremely quickly, and it is my opinion that it occurs so quickly that, assuming AJ was stabbed a single time, I don't think it's possible that NM was intentionally dragging or not dragging the knife through AJ. I don't think he had time in that specific moment to form intent beyond using the knife against the person who was coming toward him.

 

[Chimera]

I agree with you.

Yes, the witnesses are unreliable and are trying to save face and/or simply don't remember all of the exact details since everything happened so fast and everyone had been drinking.

But we have the video. And the video shows that Miu refused to withdraw even though he was asked many times. Not only did he refuse to withdraw, but he pulled out his knife. This was before there was any physical risk to him. It's almost as if he hoped to provoke a confrontation where he could use his knife.

Bbm.
Because that's what big, tough guys do ...
Smh.
I doubt he'll walk away unscathed from this.
Omo.

 

[Chimera]

I didn't mean to imply that you used the word "gutting".

I had included an asterisk in my previous comments, and wanted to expand on that. I felt that my interpretation of the few seconds of video that I'd tagged with an asterisk in my previous comment was related to your comment about what the scar seems to indicate about the stabbing.

I agree the scar looks very bad, which is why I was shocked by what the video seems to show of how the injury was inflicted upon AJ. It happens extremely quickly, and it is my opinion that it occurs so quickly that, assuming AJ was stabbed a single time, I don't think it's possible that NM was intentionally dragging or not dragging the knife through AJ. I don't think he had time in that specific moment to form intent beyond using the knife against the person who was coming toward him.

Oh, ok.
Thanks for clarifying.

Yes, the attacks were very fast.
Like, quick jabs.
My opinion is that NM would be in (possibly) less trouble if no one had died !
Something he should have thought about before getting his knife out.

I think because of the death he probably will not 'walk', but we'll see.
Maybe manslaughter, over murder in the second or third degree ?
Omo.

 

[Snoopster]

I didn't mean to imply that you used the word "gutting".

I had included an asterisk in my previous comments, and wanted to expand on that. I felt that my interpretation of the few seconds of video that I'd tagged with an asterisk in my previous comment was related to your comment about what the scar seems to indicate about the stabbing.

I agree the scar looks very bad, which is why I was shocked by what the video seems to show of how the injury was inflicted upon AJ. It happens extremely quickly, and it is my opinion that it occurs so quickly that, assuming AJ was stabbed a single time, I don't think it's possible that NM was intentionally dragging or not dragging the knife through AJ. I don't think he had time in that specific moment to form intent beyond using the knife against the person who was coming toward him.

I'd agree with you. The actions were quick. So quick that no one knew what was going on.

BUT, if a severe wound 'accidentally' happened to one victim then this would be more convincing. However one person was stabbed to their death through two ribs and into their heart, another was disemboweled and another needed major abdominal surgery.

I was disappointed with the defense in their opening statement when they said something to the effect that NM just did a few "pokes" and that one victim only needed two stitches. They conveniently left out the details of the severe injuries to others. That must have been difficult for the surviving victims and the loved ones of the dead victim to listen to, as if it was just a minor event. Clearly it wasn't.

 

[bobbymkii]

As a foreigner with limited knowledge of 2A, I'm also wondering how this situation would be interpreted in legal terms if he'd used a legally owned firearm instead of a knife?

Apologies if this has already been discussed earlier in the thread.

 

[Chimera]

I'd agree with you. The actions were quick. So quick that no one knew what was going on.

BUT, if a severe wound 'accidentally' happened to one victim then this would be more convincing. However one person was stabbed to their death through two ribs and into their heart, another was disemboweled and another needed major abdominal surgery.

I was disappointed with the defense in their opening statement when they said something to the effect that NM just did a few "pokes" and that one victim only needed two stitches. They conveniently left out the details of the severe injuries to others. That must have been difficult for the surviving victims and the loved ones of the dead victim to listen to, as if it was just a minor event. Clearly it wasn't.

So, not 'jabs' ?
When I said that, I was referring only to what the video captured.

Not sure how long it would take to cut through two ribs and slicing the heart.

The problem is the video didn't catch the death of Isaac and the camera was pointing a bit away.
Also didn't see exactly when the man in the yellow was stabbed, nor the young woman.
For all of the video caught at that moment, we don't know how long the stabs were inflicted.
Omo.