Found Alive WI - Jayme Closs, 13, Barron, missing after parents found shot, 15 Oct 2018 *Arrest* #39

[Celt1997]

I wonder what was up with that chair that they took. Doesn't seem to fit into any of this

The complaint does mention a chair in relation to James' body. Perhaps it contained blood evidence somewhere on it?

"Detective Nelson observed that James was lying on his back with his head partially under the kitchen table and chairs."
~page 3

 

[Julia966]

I don’t mind that the perp’s father wrote a letter to the Closs family. In Kelsey’s case, there was outrage that the other family never acknowledged the Berreth’s loss etc..

I don't either. The Closs family is free to read it or not, or share it with Jayme or not. I respect the fact that the Patterson family has said almost nothing to the press (I think only the grandfather has said a few words), and I'm glad they kept whatever they want to share with the Closs family private.

 

[Gardener1850]

Just jumping off to add my frustration with the Frazee family is that they knew Kelsey was missing and made no attempt to even appear concerned. Instead they immediately circled the wagons to protect PF, imo. So it wasn't that she had been murdered by their son and they showed no concern, it was back when she was first thought missing and possibly abducted or broken down on the road for all we knew.

Right, his family might not have known PF did anything before he was arrested (although that's debatable) but my point remains the same in my response to @cluciano63's post comparing these two cases. In that case there was a reason to expect communication between the families and that is why everyone criticized them for not communicating. In Jayme's case we have zero previous connection between victims and suspect/family of suspect and we have a traumatized teenage survivor to consider. Like I said, I may be too cynical but it doesn't feel right to me that PP wrote a private letter instead of expressing condolences publicly.

 

[pepper 34]

Question already addressed in another member's comment.

 

[Peony459]

When Your Child Is a Psychopath

This article is about a child who lacks empathy. Her parents are a doctor and a teacher so they recognized the signs early and she is in a residential program. Sometimes, even the best parenting, is not enough.

Fascinating article! Thanks!

 

[Julia966]

When Your Child Is a Psychopath

This article is about a child who lacks empathy. Her parents are a doctor and a teacher so they recognized the signs early and she is in a residential program. Sometimes, even the best parenting, is not enough.

Wow, great article. I believe psychiatrists used to say, and maybe still do, that psychopathy cannot be diagnosed until age 18, but this article gives a compelling argument for earlier diagnosis.

 

[NervousNellie]

Do we know that the animal thing is true though? I'm not defending JP for his crime in the slightest, but I think we "want" to believe there were signs so we can better justify this in our minds. Is the source that reported that credible?

I agree that we don't know if this 'obsession with dead animals' is true, but I keep remembering that RadarOnline was the same (only?) publication (ugh) that reported Denise was found barricaded in the bathroom, so maybe this is true? We may never know...

Edited to add the word "only" above.

 

[Mistermagoo]

I appreciate Fitzgerald addressing this, but the complaint (the way it is written chronologically) seems to imply that Deputy Fick had noted quite a few details at that very moment.

That's what I say. Also even with no plate number an APB of an older maroon 4 door car ( even if they don't say Taurus ) could have helped. I'm sure there isn't an army of them parading around the streets at that time of the morning and if any LE came up on one and ran plates, it would have come back stolen or not matching the car.

 

[Mandie K]

I’m curious as to why @mtnlites stated she thinks he did have an online presence.

(Does she know something we don’t or was this just an educated guess—most people do have some sort of online presence so it wouldn’t be an unfounded statement, just wondering if there’s something else...)

Didn't JP's grandfather say that all he did was play video games? Would that count as an "online presence"? My son is only 13, he uses the internet to play his xbox.

 

[Auntie Cipation]

He then taped her mouth, hands, and feet before shooting her mother in the head in front of her and dragging her thru the blood of both her parents to the confines of a car trunk.

There is most likely blood evidence in the trunk of the car. I hope there is sufficient physical evidence like this so it removes or at least reduces any testifying that Jayme needs to do herself, if this goes to trial.

A black SUV of the wide range of years and two possible models is probably even more common than an old red taurus. imo. so i do not see where the number of calls would have increased with the taurus over a generic black SUV. again, jmo.

My thought all along about the search for the black SUV and the red Dodge Charger/Challenger is that those cars were presumed to have been witnesses to the perp's car, either as it approached Closs's or as it left. (Remember that although LE didn't encounter any other cars upon heading from Barron to the scene, their drive only spanned a few minutes and neighbors might have reported seeing the other cars pass by just before the 911 call, after LE were on scene, or 30ish mins earlier when the perp might have been just arriving). The very fact that they didn't include the Taurus in that public appeal suggests to me that they suspected the Taurus and didn't want to trigger the perp to hide or destroy it. But they knew only that it was heading east and didn't have a front plate and had gray/silver trim. As mentioned, those cars are common, so that didn't give them anything to go on, or at least not enough to have found him yet.

So I think I possibly know where this came from if it hasn't already been discussed, but in the 911 transcript, JN says "Just asked her. She said all the people that hang out at his house apparently do not know who she is."

I think it's possible that dad was the only visitor, but Jayme couldn't necessarily tell, based on sounds, that it was only one person. I originally envisioned JP might have had folks there -- either socially or if there was some kind of drug selling or some such going on -- relating to the neighbors saying there were lots of cars going in/out -- and I thought perhaps she heard JP casually mention the crime -- "So about that murder/kidnapping south of here, wow, eh?" and that the other visitors indicated they weren't aware of it. Or possibly that he relayed that to her, whether it actually happened or not...

All JMO

 

[Mom24]

Right, his family might not have known PF did anything before he was arrested (although that's debatable) but my point remains the same in my response to @cluciano63's post comparing these two cases. In that case there was a reason to expect communication between the families and that is why everyone criticized them for not communicating. In Jayme's case we have zero previous connection between victims and suspect/family of suspect and we have a traumatized teenage survivor to consider. Like I said, I may be too cynical but it doesn't feel right to me that PP wrote a private letter instead of expressing condolences publicly.

I see what you're saying and I agree. I like how you put my thoughts so much clearer, it's about a previous connection in one case and none in the other. I too wouldn't really want to receive a letter because then I'd feel obliged to read it.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

I dont think we have seen any evidence Jayme was bonding with JP at all at anytime unless we want to call 'survial' or trying to survive as some type of bonding with a double murderer and kidnapper. That's not bonding imo.

Did she at times try to appease this monster hoping he wouldn't hurt her? Imo absolutely. Her very life was at stake.

Meanwhile while try to survive she was looking all that time for an opportunity to escape.

The more he held her captive mistreating and abusing her cruelly the more Jayme knew the only chance to end her nightmare was to escape.

Imo Jayme came to a point that escaping his iron grip was more important than her own safety.

She knew if she didnt try to appease him she would be the one who would have to pay dearly.

She knew what he was capable of doing more than anyone at that time. He had already shown her how deadly dangerous he is. She was right there in her own home to see it with her own eyes and knew how quickly he destroyed 2 lives with ease.

As far as picking and choosing what to believe about JPs past behavior I have no way to discount any of it. I think far more will come out.

Its only logical after his arrest more will come out about him. It always does in cases where the suspect's name is now known.

We will hear more unsettling things about JP in the coming weeks. Imo

Imo

 

[margarita25]

Didn't JP's grandfather say that all he did was play video games? Would that count as an "online presence"? My son is only 13, he uses the internet to play his xbox.

Thanks for your response MandiK; I would like to please see a quote for this, because if so, this is a huge discrepancy and very important point point that needs clarification for various reasons, imo.
(Got a quote for us @PommyMommyby any chance? As said before you’ve spoiled us )

Jayme Closs' kidnapper lived in 'time warp' without smart phone, former neighbor says | Daily Mail Online
The alleged killer-kidnapper accused of imprisoning Jayme Closs lived in a weird 'time warp' world without a smart phone, social media or even an internet connection, DailyMail.com can exclusively reveal.

Loner Jake Patterson, 21, instead spent his free time holed up inside his family's isolated woodland cabin poring over outdoor survival guides and books about the military.

TR, a longtime former neighbor, told DailyMail.com that Patterson seemed baffled when he first asked him at high school if he had a Facebook account.

'He stared at me blankly and said he wasn't interested in having one. He didn't even seem to have an email account to log onto, he was strictly a notes and paper guy,' TR said.

'His family were nice people but Jake's life was like something from a time warp. If he had a cell phone it was not a smart phone. All he was interested in was books.

'He didn't socialize, he didn't have what you would call real friends, just acquaintances. He just wanted to get home to read about survival and the military.'

‘The last time I was in the house was about two and a half years ago,’ added TR, 21.

‘I never really spent time in Jake’s room but from what I remember he had a twin bed and a nightstand in the corner with at least a dozen books piled up on it.

‘It was just a typical room – minus the computer.’

 

[gitana1]

There are also many people that suffer from some type of mental illness. Sometimes they can't work, or are very socially awkward but that rarely makes them dangerous. A lot of people that have mental health issues you wouldn't even notice unless they told you about their problems. Redflags as you pointed out could be everywhere depending on what you look for.

Yes. It's kind of like car alarms. I remember in the 80's and 90's so many went off all the time that people stopped paying attention. We've got socially awkward loners (which makes up probably a huge portion of the gaming community), and then millions of people with varying degrees of mental health issues. The vast majority of ALL these people wouldn't harm someone but most show what in retrospect would be deemed "red flags".

I think we just want to know how to prevent such atrocities but I don;t think we always can. He was anti-social. Awkward. Could not hold a job. May have been into taxidermy in an area where people love to hunt and probably would not see that as a sign of danger. Too many people like him everywhere.

 

[Gardener1850]

That's a great thought, but having been in the situation I would fear JC reading the papers at some point and seeing that and what that would entail. I think I would encourage him to write something and put it together to read in the courtroom and address the family there. I know they allow victim impact statements, I'm sure they'd allow him the opportunity to express himself as well as he is also a victim, imo.

I would be more comfortable with either public approach. And I'm not saying Jayme should necessarily be kept from knowing what is said. Just that seeing his father make a statement on the news or in a courtroom is very different from receiving a private note or card from the father. I'm having trouble verbalizing exactly why I feel this way. I guess I feel like there needs to be public accountability for words said by a perp's family members to a victim/victim's family in a case like this. Less of an opportunity for anything to be misconstrued or hinted at. MOO.

 

[gitana1]

It's much easier to put the puzzle together when one has all the pieces. Many of the things that JP did as a younger person don't necessarily raise red flags on their own. (The animal thing is pretty troubling, for instance, but I stayed to the side and didn't participate in my 26-person class picture, either.) Out of context, many of the things that JP did over the years could have non-nefarious explanations. However, when you piece them all together, they DO paint a much different, unsettling, kind of picture.

I think this is where I start getting antsy. There's nothing wrong with being a loner, nothing wrong with playing video games, etc. We can't just pick ONE of those things out of the group and say, "This was the sign!" It's only when you look at everything together that the pieces start falling into place. Out of context, some of the pieces are totally benign.

True. But even altogether I don't think it means much. Because there are millions of people who display similar characteristics and far, far worse. Like constant threats to harm people. Total inability to control anger. Lengthy criminal histories. Etc.

This guy is nothing in comparison. IMO. There are too many people just like he was, who do nothing wrong at all. So it would not be rational for us to expect society or teachers or his family to treat his behavior like an emergency. No way to predict this.

 

[JCzMum]

The infamous chair....that was a huge topic here. But I guess they removed a lot of objects that now don't mean anything.

In the LE release, I recall reading the position of how they found the first body behind the front door. It went on in such detail that it made perfect sense that at least some of the dining room furniture would have evidence on it. Can’t find the document at the moment

 

[Mandie K]

Thanks for your response MandiK; I would like to please see a quote for this, because if so, this is a huge discrepancy and very important point that needs clarification for various reasons, imo.
(Got a quote for ya @PommyMommy? As said before you’ve spoiled us Pommy )

Patterson's maternal grandfather described the 21-year-old as a "nice boy, polite."
Patterson was "shy and quiet," Moyer said, and often "backed off from crowds."
“Computer games were more of a priority than social interaction," Moyer noted.

https://abcnews.go.com/beta-story-c...idnapping-jayme-closs-clues/story?id=60397002

 

[Stunned]

I

Yes. You're a fully grown adult. Not a terrorized child who just saw her parents get their heads blown off by the same guy now telling her to stay put or he will do bad things to her.

Are we really questioning this child? It's not Stockholm. It's not brainwashing. It's terror. Terrorizing a child.

I was simply wondering if she was duct taped or tied up! I was,NOT blaming or denying that she was a victim!

 

[oviedo]

Please let's get back on discussing Jayme and the case. This thread is getting way off track so please. I do not want to ban the discussion of the psychology aspect of this case but let's stop with it being the WHOLE discussion of this case.

There is zero evidence of trauma bonding. Zero evidence of Stockholm Syndrom, so let's not discuss as if these are proven facts.

Yes, I am asking everyone to please stop.

Thank you

bumping Tricia's post