AMBER ALERT WI - Jayme Closs, 13, Barron, missing after parents found shot, 15 Oct 2018 *endangered* #11

[MassGuy]

The theories about the time that I'm leaning toward are either 1) the neighbor is mistaken about the time she heard them and/or 2) the neighbor didn't hear all the shots that were shot.

The more interviews the neighbor gives, the more I think she is unintentionally mistaken about the time.

jmo

My thinking is exactly the same. This all makes a lot more sense, if that 20 plus minute gap, doesn’t exist.

I don’t think it was intentional, just an error on their part.

Regardless, I think it’s more likely that the neighbors didn’t hear all the shots.

 

[JohnTate90210]

Somebody posted the various work shifts at Jennie-O. Seems like one ended at midnight. Yes? 12:30 would about match an angry co-worker getting off work and possibly going home for a gun. Plus, I understand it is probably the largest employer around. I’d be surprised if there weren’t a few registered sex offenders working there.

 

[thesnowflakesparkles]

@thesnowflakesparkles, can you add a label for the search along the 14-mile stretch to the west? There have been two public searches so far.

Thanks!

Yes, I know they stated it was a "fourteen mile long crime scene" but did they actually end up searching all the way to Turtle Lake?

 

[BB71]

I thought at first we were reading too much into the caretaker thing but I’m thinking about it a little differently now. Perhaps James and Denise has reason to believe that there was some kind of trouble waiting for them. Who knows what, it could be something they were keeping a secret even from family. This would explain the reason they needed to have such a close eye on Jayme with a caretaker...even going so far as following the caretaker when she moved and transferring schools. Just another theory to float out there.

Who calls someone a caretaker? I know the school said it, but I have only heard families use this in regard to a family member w special needs who needed to be monitored for seizure activity and problems related to Autism Spectrum Disorder.
Why not call them a caregiver? An afterschool teacher, a companion? A nanny? A family friend?
Caretaker sounds so septic, like a property manager or something.
#nooffensetopropertymgrs

 

[Inthedetails]

Yes, I know they stated it was a "fourteen mile long crime scene" but did they actually end up searching all the way to Turtle Lake?

Hmm... I don't know! But there was a search along the stretch that might be useful to know if this case drags on (which I hope it does not!).

jmo

 

[Mom24]

I thought at first we were reading too much into the caretaker thing but I’m thinking about it a little differently now. Perhaps James and Denise has reason to believe that there was some kind of trouble waiting for them. Who knows what, it could be something they were keeping a secret even from family. This would explain the reason they needed to have such a close eye on Jayme with a caretaker...even going so far as following the caretaker when she moved and transferring schools. Just another theory to float out there.

The "caretaker" was her aunt, a babysitter.

 

[thesnowflakesparkles]

Hmm... I don't know! But there was a search along the stretch that might be useful to know if this case drags on (which I hope it does not!).

jmo

You might be right, but I really hope you are wrong! I did my best estimate, I suppose the exact area probably isn't crucial.

 

[Mom24]

“Follow the money”, is a useful strategy in this case. If Mom owed a lot years back (previous poster cited court record), she may have needed to take a substantial loan for quick cash. Did these money lenders threaten her and her family if it wasn’t repaid w interest in a timely fashion? (snipped by me)

The money owed was for a credit card. It was back in 2011 and it was paid. The court docs state the plaintiff didn't accept a settlement offer made by a consolidation co. There was a negotiation and and agreement that both parties agreed to and the credit was paid in full.
Wisconsin Circuit Court Access

 

[Gardener1850]

Some food for thought: This is not directed at any one poster, but I see a lot of our theories (some of mine included) are being based heavily on the number of minutes we think occurred between when the neighbor reported hearing two gunshots and when the 911 call was made.

A few issues I see with basing our theories on this time gap:

1. The sheriff has never verified the time the gunshots were reportedly heard (or even mentioned that witnesses heard gunshots). He has said, however, if it didn't come from his podium it is not credible information.

2. The neighbor has contradicted herself on almost every detail except for the number of gunshots-- Was the first one louder or the second? Was she asleep or awake? Did she know they had a child or not? Etc, etc. She may be well-intentioned in reporting it but may still have a faulty memory or be off on the timing, could have read the clock wrong or been overtired at the time. She didn't know she would need to recall the time of hearing gunshots until the next day when the FBI surprised her by coming to her house. Witnesses often get things like this wrong because they had no reason to remember an event or note when it happened.

3. Even if the neighbors' given time of two gunshots heard is accurate, we do not know if that was the beginning of the confrontation, the middle or the end. Even I have made theories based on this and speculated that maybe it took more time than planned to get inside, trying to account for the gap. But that doesn't mean that is how it happened or that they were the first shots at 12:31.

What if we removed those "2 shots heard at 12:31" from the equation? Would our theories change drastically? We are trying to explain a time gap and what could have happened during that gap as if it is a settled fact. That 20 something minute gap may or may not have occurred as reported to us. JMO. Some things I'm thinking about as we rehash what we know and don't know....

(PS: The way Websleuths is acting up for me tonight I may not be able to reply to any replies)

 

[Schmitz5100]

The "caretaker" was her aunt, a babysitter.

Still doesn't change what I'm thinking.

 

[SharonNeedles]

It sounds like you’re making unsubstantiated, narcissistic claims about other sites stealing content from here. That’s a significant claim and I feel like your ego is getting a little inflated. Even if sites/blogs peruse this site for content, I’d like to see some evidence that they blatantly steal content like you’re claiming.

Other sites stole my videos in relation to the Mollie Tibbetts case within an hour of me posting them!

 

[Le Singe]

Okay I know some of you may not care for Mark Furhman at times including myself but the thread was closed at the time he was being interviewed on Fox.

Since he spoke I can't get out of my mind what he said because it ALL made so much common sense and none of it I had ever even considered.

Anyway for those who may be interested I will try to post it in my own words for you.

He said he believes the evidence shows that Denise was the intended target. Here is the clear reason he gave. If James had been the intended target the mission would have been over right at the front door with no need to enter the home. They would have shot James and quickly left probably before Denise could have even seen who it was.

But he said they purposefully went inside to murder Denise. He also said the crime scene can reveal who may be the intended target. Such as if one victim suffered more gunshot wounds than another victim. Or if one victim had other type of injuries done by the killer beyond the gunshots themselves.

He said he does believe that Jayme has been killed and thinks the police know that too and know they are in recovery mode now.

He also said this which makes sense to me. He said the experts on the ground have the ability in less than a day's time to know if there are any vehicles in this county of 45000 that matches the 2 vehicles in question.

So he thinks the police already know the vehicles aren't from the county this happened in. He said they will go county by county searching the DMV data base looking for possible matches and interviewing anyone who may own the same type of vehicles crossing them off one by one.

So what do all of you think about this? I found all of it so facisinating. Jmo though

I agree with some of what he says particularly that James was, for the reason he gives, simply collateral damage in all this. For me this explanation falls short in one major area why did they take Jayme? I always feel like you have to look at what did they do that they didn't have to do? Taking Jayme in his scenario makes no sense especially just to then kill her.

I guess maybe you could speculate that they took Jayme instead of just killing her in order to hide the true motive idk ...

 

[cluciano63]

OT but there have been plenty of times when some of our exact posts were used on other sites...mine included.

 

[SecretGarden]

I think Denise was somehow involved — it wasn’t solely about Jayme if the neighbors account is true and Denise called 9-11 herself.

Why would she be left alive for 20 minutes after her husband? She must’ve been engaged in some sort of dialogue. Perhaps trying to control or calm the situation? I’m sure they were threatened if cops were called someone would get hurt. I think she gave up her life trying to save Jayme.

This only makes sense if both women were in the house alive for an extended time after her dad’s murder. I can’t see Denise hiding in a room for 20 minutes, but do find that plausible if it were only a couple minutes.

The 9-11 call gave us a definite and small timeline seeing how quickly LE showed up. From that, we have vehicle descriptions and fresh evidence from the house. I can’t imagine how far LE would be behind without her heroic decision.

(This site has been repeatedly crashing all week for me.. maybe just high traffic?)

 

[KitKat2xx8]

So many questions I have: What about that big black suitcase? Was there anything stolen from house, was it ransacked?

Perhaps perp kills dad, then mom, ties Jayme up on the chair. Finds a suitcase, and starts to pack, going in and out rooms. Jayme wrestles free dials 911, and perp catches her, screaming ensues, he leaves hastily with her, without the suitcase, because they no longer have the time they once had.

 

[not.a.muggle]

There have been a number of cases where dogs, searchers and LE have missed finding bodies. One, years back, was on her own land and was not found for a year. Another just a few hundred yards from home, took months until she was found. And others.

Or live missing people. Searchers flew over Gerry Largay multiple times, she waved her shirt at them, and they never saw her. (Not criticizing LE/searchers, commenting on the difficulty of finding someone)

 

[Mom24]

Other sites stole my videos in relation to the Mollie Tibbetts case within an hour of me posting them!

That's who you are! I recalled the name but I couldn't remember from where. Thank you again for those videos that was truly going above and beyond and I was so relieved when you were safely back home!

 

[thesnowflakesparkles]

Some food for thought: This is not directed at any one poster, but I see a lot of our theories (some of mine included) are being based heavily on the number of minutes we think occurred between the when the neighbor reported hearing two gunshots and when the 911 call was made.

A few issues I see with basing our theories on this time gap:

1. The sheriff has never verified the time the gunshots were reportedly heard (or even mentioned that witnesses heard gunshots). He has said, however, if it didn't come from his podium it is not credible information.

2. The neighbor has contradicted herself on almost every detail except for the number of gunshots-- Was the first one louder or the second? Was she asleep or awake? Did she know they had a child or not? Etc, etc. She may be well-intentioned in reporting it but may still have a faulty memory or be off on the timing, could have read the clock wrong or been overtired at the time. She didn't know she would need to recall the time of hearing gunshots until the next day when the FBI surprised her by coming to her house. Witnesses often get things like this wrong because they had no reason to remember an event or note when it happened.

3. Even if the neighbors' given time of two gunshots heard is accurate, we do not know if that was the beginning of the confrontation, the middle or the end. Even I have made theories based on this and speculated that maybe it took more time than planned to get inside, trying to account for the gap. But that doesn't mean that is how it happened or that they were the first shots at 12:31.

What if we removed those "2 shots heard at 12:31" from the equation? Would our theories change drastically? We are trying to explain a time gap and what could have happened during that gap as if it is a settled fact. That 20 something minute gap may or may not have occurred as reported to us. JMO. Some things I'm thinking about as we rehash what we know and don't know....

(PS: The way Websleuths is acting up for me tonight I may not be able to reply to any replies)

Exactly this! I feel like everyone has boxed themselves into this timeline that hasn't even been verified. The neighbor seems totally unreliable.

 

[Dr.StClements]

This is my 1st post, so apologies in advance if I say/do something which runs counter to what I should. Please let me know! I've several points I'd like to make, so apologies also for this. Again, please let me know if this is out of line.

1) suicide theories: this suggestion stemmed from the original call made on Denise's 'phone, not from observation subsequently made by police at the house. It emerged prior to the discovery of dead bodies at the property.
Dispatch services prioritised the call because: it was made to emergency number; no-one spoke after call was answered; dispatchers could hear lots of shouting in the background - not directly next to phone that had called in. The only discernible word heard amidst in the background shouting was "help". Despite repeated subsequent, 1st hand listening, LE still couldn't make out anything apart from someone shouting "help".
Two further matters heightened the dispatch staff's alarm: a) there was no reply to return calls to the mobile, b) landline was disconnected. Now it could be that the landline was no longer in use. Police may well have been able to clarify, pretty quickly, whether it was a functional line, or whether it had become disconnected/severed due to a ?more sinister reason (as in someone deliberately ripping the line out).
The call dispatch team made the decision, based on all the evidence they had (presumably in consultation with seniors?), to grade the call as a high priority and LE were sent to the property. It was initially graded as a possible suicide that the police needed to attend urgently. This is evident in the published logs.
The whole team of call dispatchers deserve the highest of praise. It was on their expert judgement, and recognition that urgent help was necessary that LE were sent so quickly. Police thought they might be attending a potential suicide, so speed was of the essence anyway. They didn't dispense with that possibility straight away; finding James' body just inside the door (no gun to be seen) could have suggested that his spouse shot him and then herself. The suicide/homicide theory was discounted after they found Denise' body and knew she hadn't shot herself.
No guns - connected to the murders - were found at the property. Denise' phone was retrieved at the scene. Nothing has been mentioned by the police about Jayme having a 'phone or not. James' phone was not recovered at the scene and was subsequently noted as missing (it may have been found since, but I think it would be odd for it not to be on James' person, or in close vicinity - where he'd put it down - as he'd done a late shift at work and not been home that long.
The recording of the emergency call in on Denise' phone was given to the FBI early on in the case, for sound enhancement. The reason police say they believe Jayme was at home was because they think it's her shouting "help" in the background.
I'll post each of the topics I'd like to comment on separately. Thank you.

 

[not.a.muggle]

Perhaps perp kills dad, then mom, ties Jayme up on the chair. Finds a suitcase, and starts to pack, going in and out rooms. Jayme wrestles free dials 911, and perp catches her, screaming ensues, he leaves hastily with her, without the suitcase, because they no longer have the time they once had.

The suitcase belonged to the ME