AMBER ALERT WI - Jayme Closs, 13, Barron, missing after parents found shot, 15 Oct 2018 *endangered* #13

[carmenugt]

These are older people in a stressful situation. It can get confusing.

It doesn't have anything to do with age. It has to do with ones experience with trauma and crisis. Everyone responds differently. I have a broad experience with trauma and disasters. I wouldn't flinch at a GSW victim that others may describe as brutal. The below link is about trauma and recall.
https://www.nature-nurture.org/index.php/ptsd/traumatic-narrative-memory/ptsd-traumatic-recall/

 

[JerseyWasHome2]

I hope this image upload works! I grabbed 3 images from Google images of both types of cars, along with the police-supplied stock images of the Challenger vehicle in question, and a screenshot of the Monte Carlo after being towed from the Fox News site. IMO, I think a 2000 Monte Carlo could be mistaken for a Dodge Challenger, depending on model. 2-door, so rear side windows are small. The hood area may not be as boxy as a Challenger's, but the rear of the cars seem somewhat similar, esp if the security camera image of what they think is/was a Challenger wasn't great quality.

ETA: One news site reported it is a 2000 MC and another reported it is a 2004. I typed "2000" above, but realize the vehicle that was towed may be a 2004.

 

[MassGuy]

I hope this image upload works! I grabbed 3 images from Google images of both types of cars, along with the police-supplied stock images of the Challenger vehicle in question, and a screenshot of the Monte Carlo after being towed from the Fox News site. IMO, I think a 2000 Monte Carlo could be mistaken for a Dodge Challenger, depending on model. 2-door, so rear side windows are small. The hood area may not be as boxy as a Challenger's, but the rear of the cars seem somewhat similar, esp if the security camera image of what they think is/was a Challenger wasn't great quality.

ETA: One news site reported it is a 2000 MC and another reported it is a 2004. I typed "2000" above, but realize the vehicle that was towed may be a 2004.

Regardless of if these two cars look similar, LE has made it very clear, they are only looking for specific vehicles manufactured in certain years.

They don’t want tips on vehicles that don’t match the ones they are looking for.

This one may look similar, but it’s not it.

 

[Mollyandme]

I hope this image upload works! I grabbed 3 images from Google images of both types of cars, along with the police-supplied stock images of the Challenger vehicle in question, and a screenshot of the Monte Carlo after being towed from the Fox News site. IMO, I think a 2000 Monte Carlo could be mistaken for a Dodge Challenger, depending on model. 2-door, so rear side windows are small. The hood area may not be as boxy as a Challenger's, but the rear of the cars seem somewhat similar, esp if the security camera image of what they think is/was a Challenger wasn't great quality.

Thanks for putting this together. I would have trouble telling them apart on surveillance video, especially if the quality of the video wasn't great but again, I know absolutely nothing about different makes and models of cars. Either way I'm sure the investigators have been made aware of this even if the likelihood it was involved is low.

 

[sun16]

I think some of us are stuck/unsure about the timing in the Closs house that night—if the perp stayed there 30 mins or even much longer. I’ve doubted that at first too, but I guess it's not completely unheard of. Totally different case, but the Petit murders in CT. Those two guys were in that house for quite some time. One left and even came back. Long story. Ridiculous. In the Closs case, I guess it just depends on several things—were both Denise and Jayme home Sunday night, and since what time, when did James get home from work, could he have been followed home from work, or the ladies followed home, etc.

 

[Get off my Lawn!]

Keep it simple. All I've seen here so far indicates a rage killing. Details we do not have about the state of the bodies or the inside of the house may or may not support this. Kicking in the door and blasting James Closs immediately appears pre meditated and without hesitation. Since the second shot has variously been reported as "louder" than the first one and also "muffled" could indicate two shots fired outside or the second after the perp entered the doorway.

Assuming previous suggestions on here are correct, Denise Closs may have been wounded but made it to another room (maybe bathroom) and made the call only to have the phone disabled and then she was finished off. It's possible that Jayme Closs slept through the start of this and then when fully awakened was taken by the perps. Shocked and bewildered still in the twilight of sleep is dragged to the vehicle or dragged to somewhere nearby. Estimates are that she disappeared in 4-7 minutes so a car could be involved or a nearby location yet to be discovered. Motive will become apparent but not ruling out drugs taken by perps.

 

[Gardener1850]

Car discovered in Fox River in Oshkosh

Hmmm?

I don't think that car is related to Jayme's case. I started a new thread for a couple from Missouri who went missing in a 1998 Monte Carlo (unknown color): MO - MO - Laura McMillen, 70, & Gary McConnell, 72, Joplin, 20 July 2017

It may not be related to their case either but I thought it was worth noting as it is easy to get a model year wrong by 2 years in just guessing based on photos. JMO.

 

[callyn]

I agree, I don't think LE would carry out evidence like that with restraints in full view of the media for all to see. Jmo

Of more interest to me is the right front of the chair seat where you can see light colored raw wood and splinters. What made that hole? I have thought all along that that it may be a gunshot. Maybe the chair was held up as protection and gunshot went through the chair in that spot. It is very obviously brand new damage. Makes me go hmmm much more than the ties.

ETA: I'm way behind so apologies if this falls in a weird place.

 

[Get off my Lawn!]

Keep it simple. All I've seen here so far indicates a rage killing. Details we do not have about the state of the bodies or the inside of the house may or may not support this. Kicking in the door and blasting James Closs immediately appears pre meditated and without hesitation. Since the second shot has variously been reported as "louder" than the first one and also "muffled" could indicate two shots fired outside or the second after the perp entered the doorway.

Assuming previous suggestions on here are correct, Denise Closs may have been wounded but made it to another room (maybe bathroom) and made the call only to have the phone disabled and then she was finished off. It's possible that Jayme Closs slept through the start of this and then when fully awakened was taken by the perps. Shocked and bewildered still in the twilight of sleep is dragged to the vehicle or dragged to somewhere nearby. Estimates are that she disappeared in 4-7 minutes so a car could be involved or a nearby location yet to be discovered. Motive will become apparent but not ruling out drugs taken by perps.

This was in reply to BB71

 

[SeekingJana]

The FBI for sure, and probably Wisconsin DCI, have experts in vehicle identification. They know what they are looking for.

I know this is true. I had to identify a very rare model Corvette for the FBI once, as a witness to a federal crime. ( I reported the crime).

They had every Corvette ever made: the interior, all exterior views, and the car when in motion.
Turns out, I was able to narrow the year of production down to the decade, and the FBI helped me with the body style a great deal.

The person I was reporting did something really bad and needed to face trial for the good of the general public. The problem was, he also lied about almost every aspect of his life I knew about.

The only tangible things were his Corvettes, which he switched up driving so none had many road miles on them, and he had 2 garages and a storage building full of very rare ones.
Even belonged to a national Corvette owners club and had a Corvette double- flag logo leather jacket. Too bad it couldn't keep him warm in Federal Pen.

Ironically, the man who stalked and almost killed me also owned a Corvette, another production rarity, and his license plate said it all " Bbbad". He was a state policeman.

 

[gitana1]

Not wanting to create suspicion on the neighnours unfairly or where it is not warranted: Unfortunately they have gone out of their way to comment to media. Another interview here where they seem very comfortable using the name Jayme even though they have said they barely know her and rarely saw her. Hubby can be heard mumbling in the background.The Jayme Closs story: What neighbors heard
Did the neighbour join the search?

My comment wasn't bashing them, it wasn't alluding to them being suspects, it was politely saying that I think they are confusing matters, which imo is a fact and when there are 2 murdered and a child missing I feel ok about respectfully expressing that opinion.

I don't know. It seems like a critical post to me. See the bolder parts. It seems like more than alluding to their possible "confusion". Otherwise why mention that "unfortunately they've gone out of their way to comment to the media"? Why mention his "mumbling"?

To me a post that essentially states: "I don't want to cast suspicion, but..." and then describes things a poster finds might be odd, indeed casts suspicion. Whether intentionally or not.

I believe they need to be given a break. I also think that because there's not much to talk about people are going to hone in on any unfortunate soul who dares to speak when the media hounds them.

 

[Gardener1850]

I hope this image upload works! I grabbed 3 images from Google images of both types of cars, along with the police-supplied stock images of the Challenger vehicle in question, and a screenshot of the Monte Carlo after being towed from the Fox News site. IMO, I think a 2000 Monte Carlo could be mistaken for a Dodge Challenger, depending on model. 2-door, so rear side windows are small. The hood area may not be as boxy as a Challenger's, but the rear of the cars seem somewhat similar, esp if the security camera image of what they think is/was a Challenger wasn't great quality.

ETA: One news site reported it is a 2000 MC and another reported it is a 2004. I typed "2000" above, but realize the vehicle that was towed may be a 2004.

It could be mistaken if we were talking about an eye witness only having seen the vehicle in question. But LE has stated they have video of the car from homes and businesses. There are very distinct features that are different, even if the profile is similar from the side. Namely the headlights. The FBI is not going to get something like that wrong, especially when they have still photos and video to compare. JMO.

 

[tmar]

I have EXTREME SERIOUS DOUBTS the neighbors, the Smrekars, are involved in any even remotest way. They come across as just simple folks, probably retired. There is just no way imaginable these folks could be responsible in any way at all. Granted they viewed their neighbors as "almost reclusive" but you have to remember both Denise and James worked jobs, were raising Jayme, and involved in a number of other things such as church activities. Many people live outside of town on a little spot of dirt as they just enjoy peace and privacy at the end of a work week. Some people like to live in town in a big place and entertain every day. Each to their own - their is no right/wrong. I live in the country and everyone has a minimum of 5 acres or more and most all of my neighbors just enjoy their privacy. Rarely do people have a party or such unless it is a high school graduation or such. But again I can't for the life of me see involvement on any part of the neighbor. MOO

I don't live in a remote area.
With new folk, nearby here, the only way, I know about their circumstances after some time, is due to walking my dog, and perhaps having a chat, if someone is out.
Often, I would think about their circumstances: who lives there etc.

Now, in a remote area, if I was not walking past, perhaps I would not be aware of folk, living in these homes.
When I speak, to other neighbours, they are unaware of others living nearby, perhaps as don't walk about, with their dog.
I don't have any 'suspicious' doubts about the neighbours, being interviewed, and their answers.
MOO.

 

[Get off my Lawn!]

I don't know. It seems like a critical post to me. See the bolder parts. It seems like more than alluding to their possible "confusion". Otherwise why mention that "unfortunately they've gone out of their way to comment to the media"? Why mention his "mumbling"?

To me a post that essentially states: "I don't want to cast suspicion, but..." and then describes things a poster finds might be odd, indeed casts suspicion. Whether intentionally or not.

I believe they need to be given a break. I also think that because there's not much to talk about people are going to hone in on any unfortunate soul who dares to speak when the media hounds them.

Point well made. We should move on now.

 

[Trino]

Keep it simple. All I've seen here so far indicates a rage killing. Details we do not have about the state of the bodies or the inside of the house may or may not support this. Kicking in the door and blasting James Closs immediately appears pre meditated and without hesitation. Since the second shot has variously been reported as "louder" than the first one and also "muffled" could indicate two shots fired outside or the second after the perp entered the doorway.

Assuming previous suggestions on here are correct, Denise Closs may have been wounded but made it to another room (maybe bathroom) and made the call only to have the phone disabled and then she was finished off. It's possible that Jayme Closs slept through the start of this and then when fully awakened was taken by the perps. Shocked and bewildered still in the twilight of sleep is dragged to the vehicle or dragged to somewhere nearby. Estimates are that she disappeared in 4-7 minutes so a car could be involved or a nearby location yet to be discovered. Motive will become apparent but not ruling out drugs taken by perps.

I agree this was a rage killing. Reason yet unknown. Violently breaking down the front door (emphasizing FRONT) is an in-your-face crime. Criminals usually quietly (emphasizing quietly) attempt to enter a house perhaps through a window or side door while the occupants are sleeping. Whoever did this intended to make a statement.

 

[SeekingJana]

I think some of us are stuck/unsure about the timing in the Closs house that night—if the perp stayed there 30 mins or even much longer. I’ve doubted that at first too, but I guess it's not completely unheard of. Totally different case, but the Petit murders in CT. Those two guys were in that house for quite some time. One left and even came back. Long story. Ridiculous. In the Closs case, I guess it just depends on several things—were both Denise and Jayme home Sunday night, and since what time, when did James get home from work, could he have been followed home from work, or the ladies followed home, etc.

I posted a fairly detailed post about this in part 12. IMO, we know the ending of the crime but not the beginning or the middle.
The Petit family home invasion and murders over a period of many hours is one of the cases which I base my theory that this home invasion was NOT necessarily a 30 minute hit and run. It could have lasted hours. We don't know yet.

If it happened in CT, it could have happened the same way in WI. The only main difference in the criminology is that the Petit home invaders/ murderers thought a doctor would have a huge bank account balance and did wait to kill the women until after Mrs. Petit had gone with one perp. to the bank when it opened after terrorizing the teens and their mom almost all night long. The balance was not anywhere near what perps. had expected. They killed the females, set the house on fire upstairs and left Dr. Petit to die in the basement. He'd escaped to a neighbor's a few minutes earlier, thankfully, and by the grace of God, seems to have a happy life managing the family foundation in memory of his daughters and first wife. He's remarried and has a son now. He's my " citizen hero" in this world. Gave up a fantastic medical career to raise funds for charity that benefits crime victims.

 

[JerseyWasHome2]

It could be mistaken if we were talking about an eye witness only having seen the vehicle in question. But LE has stated they have video of the car from homes and businesses. There are very distinct features that are different, even if the profile is similar from the side. Namely the headlights. The FBI is not going to get something like that wrong, especially when they have still photos and video to compare. JMO.

Good to know. I hadn't heard/read that they had multiple videos and good shots of the headlights. What a weird coincidence then, and given that the MC is supposedly missing its plates, very suspicious.

 

[tmar]

It could be mistaken if we were talking about an eye witness only having seen the vehicle in question. But LE has stated they have video of the car from homes and businesses. There are very distinct features that are different, even if the profile is similar from the side. Namely the headlights. The FBI is not going to get something like that wrong, especially when they have still photos and video to compare. JMO.

As seen in MT case recently, LE 'honed in' on something specific on the car evident on CCTV, and investigated this feature, finding the Suspect.
Similarly here, LE are perhaps specifically aware what to search for.
MOO.

 

[liltexans]

I'm working on a new thread. This thread will close in about 10 minutes.

 

[BB71]

I know. I still think its possible she misread the time as 12:58, instead of 12:38, making it actually 12:51. I'm not convinced of this, but I am still open to the possibility. It was late, they were in bed, and she had no reason to be concerned ( according to her) and would not have taken a second look to make sure. Jmo

That DOES make more sense. They kick in door, shoot mom and dad. Mom makes her way to bathroom. Jayme has woken up now. Mom makes call. Jayme is yelling. Shooter(s) hang up on 911 call. Take Jayme and disappear.
Seems pretty targeted. But who was the target? If they wanted Jayme, they could have grabbed her when her parents were at work.