AMBER ALERT WI - Jayme Closs, 13, Barron, missing after parents found shot, 15 Oct 2018 *endangered* #23

[Mistermagoo]

So now the family is stating that Jayme was left alone at home. She said like when she was waiting for the bus but it sounds like probably other times too. If she was being watched because she was the objects of someone's obsession then it seems like it wouldn't be too hard to figure that out and approach her when she was alone. If there are trees all around the house they could have sat out there and watched through the windows until they decided on the best time. No need to kick in a door and have to face two adults when you could wait until they weren't there. Also, if she had a "secret boyfriend" he would have known that too because she probably would have talked to him while the parents weren't there.
Perhaps the caretaker was just someone who drove her to practice or such when the parents couldn't. Otherwise, Jayme would just go home on the bus and let herself in to wait until her parents got home. Not that unusual for a 13 year old. They also James worked 60-80 hours a week. No mention of Denise but I guess we are assuming she works at least 40 hours. The caretaker could have been taking her to dentist/doctor's appointments, practices (or picking her up), or track meets.

This is why I said this

One thing about the Kare11 video when they said that Jayme was alone in the mornings and they could have taken her without having to kill 2 people...... My thoughts on the time of the crime since the beginning, whether jayme was the target or not was that the darkness of the night along with the less cars traveled at that time of night were key to the perps. When looking at Google street view, you can pretty much get a great look at the whole property from the street during the day. Plus I think someone stated that there are 6000 cars per day that travel that road, so again, The darkness of the night is definitely an advantage.

 

[ACG2x]

Definitely! Cameras are also on entrance and exit doors. It wouldn't be that difficult to view footage of people entering once a timeframe was narrowed down. Haven't been to a casino in the US for a while but I know the ones I have been to in Canada run your DL or ID through a scanner before allowing entrance. Anyone know if casinos in US do this?
ETA: spelling

Turtle Lake casino does not have this. You can just walk in. While their surveillance isn't at the level of say MGM Grand in Vegas with stuff like biometric facial recognition, there are high resolution 360 cameras at every entrance and outside in the parking lot. It's pretty easy for a casino camera to capture the license plate of virtually any vehicle that comes into the parking lot.

As far as individuals that enter, they are always captured by the "eye in the sky". That is the black bubble looking things you can see if you look up at any gaming establishment in the US. Gaming law varies by state but typically requires every square inch of the gaming floor and entrance/exit ways to be easily accessible and recordable by surveillance footage and most states require casinos to maintain footage digitally for 6-12 months however many casinos keep it longer such as up to two years in case they are sued or need to sue in a monetary dispute. Cameras are not permitted in restrooms however they are immediately outside the restroom so the casino can track if someone goes in, do they come out. While less regulated, most US casinos have 360 cameras set up to cover their parking lot as well.

The "eye" is really a 360 panoramic camera that has multiple zoom features. Depending on the strength of the camera you can zoom down to the ground level and tell what kind of shoes a person is wearing if it's a live shot. If they are captured walking across the floor by watching back footage, options are more limited but you can still tell general physical features. Most cameras, even casino ones, can't take a piece of footage recorded previously of someone walking across the floor and zoom in to the level of detail where you can clearly see their face and all it's features. If you were watching that person live and they were standing still then you could.

Surveillance at a small tribal casino like Turtle Lake however isn't what you'd expect in Vegas. The Hollywood picture of dozens of trained guards and experts sitting in a NASA Mission Control like room zooming in and out of camera live shots is very misleading. Casinos spend millions on technology however much less on those watching.

It's very reactionary work - you wait for a call from a pit to either queue up footage from a recent happening or the pit suspects someone is doing something shady and wants more human eyes on them. For example, the pit will call up and say that "pit 5, table 3 BJ first base may be capping". This means that in pit five at the third table in the row, blackjack game, the player to the immediate left of the dealer and first to act each hand may be discreetly placing extra chips on winning bets to be paid more. I'll spare you the logistics of how this is accomplished but if you have a novice dealer, it's actually very easy to do. The surveillance folks would then zoom in on that table and player and watch them specifically for a period of time.

Getting a casino surveillance job at a place like Turtle Lake is relatively easy and you don't need much training to do so. Often on the "graveyard" shift (usually 2 AM-10 AM) you have 1-2 people viewing live footage. I've been told the late shift people are really there to just wait for a call from one of the pits or slot manager if there's something they need to focus on.

Otherwise, it's really sit there and stare at the screen and is an incredibly boring job as most surveillance people are those who have limited experience in the gaming or security industry as those positions are not well paid. Anyone who is a true expert can make a ton more money doing private consulting or going to work for a third party outsourcing firm.

Source: My own knowledge of casino surveillance from friends who work in the industry and I also work for the security provider for a major fitness brand in the US.

 

[tiffkinsadder]

Responding to Human from previous thread as it closed:


Excellent point, Human (as usual, your posts are always insightful)

How did the Perp(s) even know that Jayme would be home that Sunday night?

<modsnip - rumor>

Because that was her routine..

 

[kkdj]

Definitely! Cameras are also on entrance and exit doors. It wouldn't be that difficult to view footage of people entering once a timeframe was narrowed down. Haven't been to a casino in the US for a while but I know the ones I have been to in Canada run your DL or ID through a scanner before allowing entrance. Anyone know if casinos in US do this?
ETA: spelling

BBM
Not the ones I have been to, including Las Vegas.

 

[photographer4]

New Video Surveillance Search Expanded, Electronic Device Detecting K-9 Utilized in Jayme Closs Search

Per this article, Denise was found in a bathroom. They found Jayme's cell charging in the kitchen, so she clearly hadn't taken it to bed with her. The article also notes when they found James down, there were multiple rounds spent nearby. So maybe he wasn't riddle with bullets, maybe just one shot did him in? If so, then why are other spent rounds nearby? Was someone shaking and a terrible aim? Or... is it possible other rounds were spent nearby because Jayme or Denise had been spotted by the perp near the door after James was shot, and they went to see what the commotion was so perp opened fire? Jayme's phone was in the kitchen. So we know that Jayme, was NOT likely hiding in the kitchen to make the call to 911. It seems more likely to me that Denise made that call now...

Cannot imagine the horror this family went through that awful night.

 

[JohnTate90210]

How easy is it to pull over at the Closs driveway? Here's Google StreetView from two years ago:



If you're having trouble seeing the tire marks, I've marked them with red dots here:


I'd guess those are from the mailman but do show the ease of pulling off the road.

 

[JohnTate90210]

New Video Surveillance Search Expanded, Electronic Device Detecting K-9 Utilized in Jayme Closs Search

Per this article, Denise was found in a bathroom. They found Jayme's cell charging in the kitchen, so she clearly hadn't taken it to bed with her. The article also notes when they found James down, there were multiple rounds spent nearby. So maybe he wasn't riddle with bullets, maybe just one shot did him in? If so, then why are other spent rounds nearby? Was someone shaking and a terrible aim? Or... is it possible other rounds were spent nearby because Jayme or Denise had been spotted by the perp near the door after James was shot, and they went to see what the commotion was so perp opened fire? Jayme's phone was in the kitchen. So we know that Jayme, was NOT likely hiding in the kitchen to make the call to 911. It seems more likely to me that Denise made that call now...

Cannot imagine the horror this family went through that awful night.

I wonder if the mattress was seized after possibly noticing a bullet hole?

It's also interesting to note they've been doing DNA testing which indicates they've got something to match with, but also says it's nobody in the database. I guess that could lead to one of the genealogy DNA searches.

 

[ACG2x]

New Video Surveillance Search Expanded, Electronic Device Detecting K-9 Utilized in Jayme Closs Search

Per this article, Denise was found in a bathroom. They found Jayme's cell charging in the kitchen, so she clearly hadn't taken it to bed with her. The article also notes when they found James down, there were multiple rounds spent nearby. So maybe he wasn't riddle with bullets, maybe just one shot did him in? If so, then why are other spent rounds nearby? Was someone shaking and a terrible aim? Or... is it possible other rounds were spent nearby because Jayme or Denise had been spotted by the perp near the door after James was shot, and they went to see what the commotion was so perp opened fire? Jayme's phone was in the kitchen. So we know that Jayme, was NOT likely hiding in the kitchen to make the call to 911. It seems more likely to me that Denise made that call now...

Cannot imagine the horror this family went through that awful night.

My assumption has always been close to what you noted. Denise's phone made the 911 call however in the commotion and her trying to protect her daughter, she couldn't speak into the phone. I've always thought the 911 call was just a way to alert authorities as she still had Jayme in the house with her.

I think Denise figured if she just called 911 and put the phone down, the police would come and if it was discovered she was talking to a 911 operator she'd be shot for sure. Obviously we know what actually happened but talking about her mindset in those moments. I wouldn't be surprised if she called 911 then went to face the perp or protect Jayme or both hoping she could stall them long enough so police could arrive and help. If you call 911 and say nothing and they call back and get no answer as what happened here, then the dispatcher will send someone which is what I think Denise was counting on.

 

[gipsypup]

Didn't the casino get a mention in the 911 logs? If so, I'd say that's how that angle has come into so much discussion. But if James had a nice win and was followed, then video would likely have revealed it already. If he beat somebody at poker, they'd know who, too. If there was any unusual encounter at the casino, it would have been easily solved by now. It just seems the casino angle is grasping at straws. Seems like it's a 15 minute drive from the house so not much time for something to even happen along the way. One little wayside pullover spot but I don't see him pulling in there for any reason unless flagged down for some reason.

The new FBI team coming in is bringing the electronic sniffing dog AS WELL as a video surveillance team to go over the video on HWY 8 from Barron to Turtle Creek. Focusing on that route to and from the casino area.
Just from reading about crimes listed on official police websites that have taken place around casinos in that area makes me think these casinos attract individuals there that aren't only seeking to gamble. I do believe there is a hotel on the casino grounds. How closely is that area monitored by security? To me, knowing if James or Denise was at or near the casino the night before, earlier in the day, or the crime night is very important.IMO.

 

[kkdj]

Good morning.

I am glad in one way the families are speaking out and in another way I cringe because everytime it happens every single word is critiqued with some putting their own spin on it instead of taking it at face value.

Imo Jim was at work that day just like his father said. Just because Denise's family said they believe he was at work doesnt mean they disbelieve it but this is what they have been told.

And why we are back discussing Jim going to the casino I have no clue. Did any of the family members who would know say this is true?

Of course the family members are aware of the rumors swirling on the internet and by those in the community who didn't know this family. So imo they simply addressed
those rumors about Jim may have been in financial difficulty. Not that any of it was remotely true. Just a hypothetical none of them know about.

Imo they have no clue how every word they have said will now be parsed and dissected like always.

I highly respect the theories of everyone but I have noticed from the beginning most theories involve Jim as somehow bringing this about on his family and himself.

Why is it always a male victim that gets most theories against him? That always seem to be the case when there are male and female victims involved. I have never really understood why that seems to be the consistent theme.

Imo there hasn't been one thing that supports Jim went to the casino much less has this unknown gambling debt so high it got him killed along with his wife and only daughter taken. Nor anything that supports somehow he is at fault.

If he regularly worked 60 to 80 hours a week it's very logical what time he had left was going to the gym and the rest of the time he spent at home relaxing and getting ready for another hard day at work. Imo

As far as what Mark Furhman said he did not misspeak. He is a very articulate man.

He clearly laid out why he believes Denise was the target and not Jim. He said if they came there for Jim the mission would have been completed when he was shot and killed at the front door and they would have left without ever entering the home but that did not happen. After Jim was eliminated the suspect purposefully entered the home to murder Denise.

That makes the most logical sense to me. It explains why things happened in the order they did. They were there to make sure Denise was dead and that is why they entered into the home.

If the target had been Jim the suspect could have left immediately without Denise even having a chance to see who it was.

And if Denise was the intended target it never means she did one thing wrong to bring this about either. Just like Jim had no blame in what happened

In fact someone may have become obsessed with her through no fault of her own.

Sometimes people cant be nice and friendly to certain people because they twist it into thinking they have other type of feelings for them than just friendship.

I know..its happened to me several times in my own life. I have even had stalkers even though I had no desire to be with any of them and politely told them so.

Jmo

Thank you OBE. I can go with all of this as it makes sense. I still need to fit in why they took Jayme. Do you think she just ran outside and they grabbed her in their car as they were getting away? ie no original intent of taking Jayme? She was running away and may have been a witness and could ID them? That scenario won't bode well for Jayme imo.

 

[daisy6441]

This is why I said this

That sounds like the suspect was so brazen to think that he would have no trouble taking on two adults that he would have some sort of delusional thinking.

I wonder if the mattress was seized after possibly noticing a bullet hole?

It's also interesting to note they've been doing DNA testing which indicates they've got something to match with, but also says it's nobody in the database. I guess that could lead to one of the genealogy DNA searches.

It could just mean they found a drop of blood somewhere away from the bodies and they are trying to find out which victim it belongs to or if it belongs to someone else. They could also be testing something they think the suspect touched. It doesn't necessarily mean they know the killers DNA is there but they are looking.

 

[daisy6441]

Thank you OBE. I can go with all of this as it makes sense. I still need to fit in why they took Jayme. Do you think she just ran outside and they grabbed her in their car as they were getting away? ie no original intent of taking Jayme? She was running away and may have been a witness and could ID them? That scenario won't bode well for Jayme imo.

If there was a getaway driver or other passenger in the killers vehicle then they could have seen her run out and grabbed her. When the killer comes out they shove her in the car to get out of there as fast as they can. Or she ran and they chased her down with the car and grabbed her. Heard the sirens and got out of there as quick as they could planning to dispose of her later.

 

[Steelslady]

Didn't the casino get a mention in the 911 logs? If so, I'd say that's how that angle has come into so much discussion. But if James had a nice win and was followed, then video would likely have revealed it already. If he beat somebody at poker, they'd know who, too. If there was any unusual encounter at the casino, it would have been easily solved by now. It just seems the casino angle is grasping at straws. Seems like it's a 15 minute drive from the house so not much time for something to even happen along the way. One little wayside pullover spot but I don't see him pulling in there for any reason unless flagged down for some reason.

Please know this is not a criticism of your post or anyone elses, but I truly don't buy into the thought that James won a large sum of money and someone followed him home. If that were the case, I truly believe LE would be sharing a heck of a lot more information than they have been. Also, they would warn the public that they might be in danger, if someone was desperate for money to follow folks home from the casino.

I wish it was that simple, for the family's sake, and that Jayme was found already.

This just smells of something personal to me. I am still not ruling out home invasion, but the more I read about this, the less I lean towards that.

 

[gipsypup]

Turtle Lake casino does not have this. You can just walk in. While their surveillance isn't at the level of say MGM Grand in Vegas with stuff like biometric facial recognition, there are high resolution 360 cameras at every entrance and outside in the parking lot. It's pretty easy for a casino camera to capture the license plate of virtually any vehicle that comes into the parking lot.

As far as individuals that enter, they are always captured by the "eye in the sky". That is the black bubble looking things you can see if you look up at any gaming establishment in the US.Gaming law varies by state but typically requires every square inch of the gaming floor and entrance/exit ways to be easily accessible and recordable by surveillance footage and most states require casinos to maintain footage digitally for 6-12 months however many casinos keep it longer such as up to two years in case they are sued or need to sue in a monetary dispute. Cameras are not permitted in restrooms however they are immediately outside the restroom so the casino can track if someone goes in, do they come out. While less regulated, most US casinos have 360 cameras set up to cover their parking lot as well.

The "eye" is really a 360 panoramic camera that has multiple zoom features. Depending on the strength of the camera you can zoom down to the ground level and tell what kind of shoes a person is wearing if it's a live shot. If they are captured walking across the floor by watching back footage, options are more limited but you can still tell general physical features. Most cameras, even casino ones, can't take a piece of footage recorded previously of someone walking across the floor and zoom in to the level of detail where you can clearly see their face and all it's features. If you were watching that person live and they were standing still then you could.

Surveillance at a small tribal casino like Turtle Lake however isn't what you'd expect in Vegas. The Hollywood picture of dozens of trained guards and experts sitting in a NASA Mission Control like room zooming in and out of camera live shots is very misleading. Casinos spend millions on technology however much less on those watching.

It's very reactionary work - you wait for a call from a pit to either queue up footage from a recent happening or the pit suspects someone is doing something shady and wants more human eyes on them. For example, the pit will call up and say that "pit 5, table 3 BJ first base may be capping". This means that in pit five at the third table in the row, blackjack game, the player to the immediate left of the dealer and first to act each hand may be discreetly placing extra chips on winning bets to be paid more. I'll spare you the logistics of how this is accomplished but if you have a novice dealer, it's actually very easy to do. The surveillance folks would then zoom in on that table and player and watch them specifically for a period of time.

Getting a casino surveillance job at a place like Turtle Lake is relatively easy and you don't need much training to do so. Often on the "graveyard" shift (usually 2 AM-10 AM) you have 1-2 people viewing live footage. I've been told the late shift people are really there to just wait for a call from one of the pits or slot manager if there's something they need to focus on.

Otherwise, it's really sit there and stare at the screen and is an incredibly boring job as most surveillance people are those who have limited experience in the gaming or security industry as those positions are not well paid. Anyone who is a true expert can make a ton more money doing private consulting or going to work for a third party outsourcing firm.

Source: My own knowledge of casino surveillance from friends who work in the industry and I also work for the security provider for a major fitness brand in the US.

Very interesting. Great info. My question was if the Turtle Lake casino was advanced in surveillance like the larger ones throughout the US and you answered that for me. I had a feeling it isn't.
Specifically, like I have asked in a previous post...there is a hotel there and of course a parking lot for both hotel and casino. How much effort in surveillance goes into the parking lot and people who may hang around the hotel parking area? Could individuals sit outside in a vehicle unnoticed watching people enter and leave the casino? Just some thoughts on the casino again...IMO

 

[Curiousobserver]

New Video Surveillance Search Expanded, Electronic Device Detecting K-9 Utilized in Jayme Closs Search

Per this article, Denise was found in a bathroom. They found Jayme's cell charging in the kitchen, so she clearly hadn't taken it to bed with her. The a.

further: ...a K-9 trained to sniff out chemicals from concealed electronic devices has been utilized. DNA testing has been done on dozens of people as a process of elimination. Jayme's cell phone was found in the home, plugged in in the kitchen and apps on it are being analyzed. Sheriff Fitzgerald also confirmed undisclosed properties have been searched-- a chair, mattress and front door are among some of the items seized as evidence.

What concealed electronic devices are they looking for? Jayme's phone and moms phone were recovered.

DNA testing was done- so they have a reference sample to compare to... and they collected the
mattress

 

[kkdj]

If there was a getaway driver or other passenger in the killers vehicle then they could have seen her run out and grabbed her. When the killer comes out they shove her in the car to get out of there as fast as they can. Or she ran and they chased her down with the car and grabbed her. Heard the sirens and got out of there as quick as they could planning to dispose of her later.

Makes sense.....and yet the Sheriff told us days later he really believed her to be alive.

 

[JohnTate90210]

Please know this is not a criticism of your post or anyone elses, but I truly don't buy into the thought that James won a large sum of money and someone followed him home. If that were the case, I truly believe LE would be sharing a heck of a lot more information than they have been. Also, they would warn the public that they might be in danger, if someone was desperate for money to follow folks home from the casino.

I wish it was that simple, for the family's sake, and that Jayme was found already.

This just smells of something personal to me. I am still not ruling out home invasion, but the more I read about this, the less I lean towards that.

As I said, I think the only reason it comes up is the mention in the 911 log. I think it's a useless angle to pursue since LE would have definitely already solved it if it was that easy.

 

[Mistermagoo]

We know James had guns in the house and they were all accounted for. From the 911 call logs They said "No guns located at this time" which would indicate that James did not grab one of his guns. If he did hear a kick at the door, I would think that would be the first thing he would try and do. We also know that the guns used were not one of his so the perp didn't take JC's gun and use it on JC and DC.

 

[Gardener1850]

"Question: Was the dad at the casino the night of the murders?
Sheriff Fitzgerald: Don't know the answer to that."

IMO, just because the Sheriff doesn't know the answer doesn't mean the investigators don't know.

ETA: If it was important the sheriff would have been told.

Excellent point. The sheriff also said in the same interview that he knew the movements of Denise and Jayme that day-- where they went and when, but he was not releasing that info. I feel certain investigators know where James Closs was too (even if Fitzgerald himself may not know). Releasing their schedule probably won't help solve the case and keeping it quiet may help weed out any false tips or false confessions. JMO.

 

[Curiousobserver]

Looking at that driveway three things strike me right away.

First is you don't just pull in there in the middle of the night by accident. If you were going 55 down the rd you need to know that driveway is there to make that turn.

Second- if you pull in, the gravel makes a lot of noise and the dog would have barked- bonus points if your lights were on; you can't sneak up on that spot if you drive in

Third- you are going to leave tire impressions