AMBER ALERT WI - Jayme Closs, 13, Barron, missing after parents found shot, 15 Oct 2018 *endangered* #25

[MsFacetious]

Yes, I agree that the motive is sexual, but I disagree with not keeping her alive. He went to an awful lot of trouble to take her, so I think he has to balance keeping her with the effort of getting her. I think that means that she could still be alive - optimist at heart.

It's possible that he made a plan to take her, and that plan included having a place to keep her. Keeping her may not interfere with his day to day life. Whether she can survive as a captive is unknown - not everyone can.

Yes. I want to hope she's alive, but I'm not sure that she wants to be if she is. So I'm not sure what to hope for.

However, Elizabeth Smart just had her third child today. Sometimes there is hope after these cases. Maybe Jayme can be one of them.

Elizabeth Smart gives birth to third child, a baby girl

 

[otto]

Probably been mentioned by some previous posters, but one reason Jayme could have been taken -- if she wasn't the original target -- is that the perp either ran out of bullets or his/her gun malfunctioned. In that scenario, the perp would likely have had to take Jayme in order that she couldn't ID him/her, particularly if the perp knew 911 had been called.

No. If the suspect ran out of his two bullets and he wanted to murder Jayme before running away, he would have strangled her or used a knife.

 

[otto]

Yes. I want to hope she's alive, but I'm not sure that she wants to be if she is. So I'm not sure what to hope for.

However, Elizabeth Smart just had her third child today. Sometimes there is hope after these cases. Maybe Jayme can be one of them.

Elizabeth Smart gives birth to third child, a baby girl

The will to live is powerful. If she is alive, she knows she has to survive. I can't shake the idea that her survival is balanced on the effort it took to take her.

 

[Pretty Go Pale]

No. If the suspect ran out of his two bullets and he wanted to murder Jayme before running away, he would have strangled her or used a knife.

More time consuming than simply shooting a person, and the perp -- due to the 911 call -- may have already realized the clock was ticking on LE's arrival.

As an aside, I haven't seen it reported that the perp only had two bullets and/or that the perp only fired two shots. Color me skeptical on that scenario.

 

[otto]

More time consuming than simply shooting a person, and the perp -- due to the 911 call -- may have already realized the clock was ticking on LE's arrival.

As an aside, I haven't seen it reported that the perp only had two bullets and/or that the perp only fired two shots. Color me skeptical on that scenario.

It is not more time consuming to stab a victim than shoot at close range - with Jayme being the victim.

I'm pretty sure that the call was made 8 minutes prior to arrival of police, but that's strictly from memory of reading the early reports. Aren't discussions about the entire incident happening in 4 minutes contradicted by timestamps?

It has been reported that there were two gunshots. Someone suggested that the gun jammed or there were not enough bullets. I'm guessing he came prepared with enough bullets for his gun and that it did not jam. I am assuming that he took Jayme because he wanted to, not because his gun stopped working.

The better defined the suspect, the more at risk the victim.

 

[bizzle2]

Most abductions of women and children are off the street and no one knows that anything happened until too late. It is sneaky and usually involves luring (e.g.: Lyric Cook) or a hard hit to the head (e.g.: Mollie Tibbetts).

Jayme was most likely asleep, and her parents as well. Someone was at the house, dad was at the door to check it out? Gun shot into the door, killing dad and suspect kicking in the door? Is that what happened next?

The second gunshot was louder? Wife is on the bathroom floor dying?

Was this 4 minutes, or 25 minutes?

Even though it only took 4 minutes for police to act on the 911 call and arrive at the scene, at what time was the 911 call placed?

Wasn't it 8 minutes between the 911 call, dispatch, and 4 minutes travel time? Regarding "short time that the suspect was in the house discussion," shouldn't that be at least 8 minutes? We also need to add the time that the gun was fired, someone kicked in the door, there was a second gunshot, mom retreated to the bathroom, someone got the phone. That all happened before someone made or interrupted the 911 call?

If the time between the 911 call and arrival of police at the scene is 8 minutes, then "short time" cannot be 4 minutes.

There were 7 minutes and 3 seconds between the time the 911 call was received (12:53:26) and the time the first officer arrived on scene (1:00:29) according to the dispatch log.

If you figure the crime started a minute or two before the 911 call that'd make it 8 or 9 minutes total from when the crime started to when police arrived. You'd also have to figure that the perp was able to get far enough away from the property not to be noticed when the police arrived, so you'd subtract maybe a minimum of 30 seconds from the time police arrived.

Longest possible time: Figure it started at 12:51am and the perp drove off at exactly 1am (about 30 seconds before the first officer arrived) and the whole thing took about 9 minutes.

Shortest possible time: Figure it started at 12:52am and the perp took off almost immediately after the 911 call was hung up (call was hung up at 12:54:13) and the whole thing may have happened in under three minutes.

It's also possible that the perp needed to tie Jayme up (or something along those lines) so that she wouldn't try to escape from the vehicle. Whether this happened in the house or in the car, there's really no way of knowing.

So basically it's somewhere between 2.5-9 minutes that the perp was in the house.

 

[Pretty Go Pale]

It is not more time consuming to stab a victim than shoot at close range - with Jayme being the victim.

I'm pretty sure that the call was made 8 minutes prior to arrival of police, but that's strictly from memory of reading the early reports. Aren't discussions about the entire incident happening in 4 minutes contradicted by timestamps?

It has been reported that there were two gunshots. Someone suggested that the gun jammed or there were not enough bullets. I'm guessing he came prepared with enough bullets for his gun and that it did not jam. I am assuming that he took Jayme because he wanted to, not because his gun stopped working.

The better defined the suspect, the more at risk the victim.

I, too, think the perp "took Jayme because he wanted to, not because his gun stopped working." That aside, I was simply pointing out a possible explanation for why she was taken, if the perp hadn't originally planned on doing so.

As far as the claim that "It is not more time consuming to stab a victim than shoot at close range - with Jayme being the victim" -- I disagree. If the perp didn't bring a knife, he/she would likely have had to find one in the kitchen while containing a struggling victim, before acting w/ the weapon against a combative target. That takes longer than "bang."

On the topic of it having "been reported that there were two gunshots," what has actually been reported is that some neighbors who live fairly close to the Closs' say they heard what they think were two gunshots. No confirmation that what they heard were actually gunshots, and no information at all from LE on the number of gunshots that were fired at the Closs' house.

 

[Confusion]

This is probably a dumb question, but could several shots sound like just 1 or 2 from a distance if an automatic or semiautomatic was used?

 

[otto]

There were 7 minutes and 3 seconds between the time the 911 call was received (12:53:26) and the time the first officer arrived on scene (1:00:29) according to the dispatch log.

If you figure the crime started a minute or two before the 911 call that'd make it 8 or 9 minutes total from when the crime started to when police arrived. You'd also have to figure that the perp was able to get far enough away from the property not to be noticed when the police arrived, so you'd subtract maybe a minimum of 30 seconds from the time police arrived.

Longest possible time: Figure it started at 12:51am and the perp drove off at exactly 1am (about 30 seconds before the first officer arrived) and the whole thing took about 9 minutes.

Shortest possible time: Figure it started at 12:52am and the perp took off almost immediately after the 911 call was hung up (call was hung up at 12:54:13) and the whole thing may have happened in under three minutes.

It's also possible that the perp needed to tie Jayme up (or something along those lines) so that she wouldn't try to escape from the vehicle. Whether this happened in the house or in the car, there's really no way of knowing.

So basically it's somewhere between 2.5-9 minutes that the perp was in the house.

Thank you! I rounded up, 8 minutes. 7+ minutes between the time that police were alerted to a problem, and police arrival at the scene. That's significant.

Did the Sheriff say this happened in a "short time, and did he say that "short time" could be 4 minutes? What is a "short time" for a home invasion? 4 minutes? 15 hours? Between ear witness gunshots and 911 call, it seems like this lasted 25 minutes, not 4 or 8.

I'm not assuming that someone was prowling around outside the house, coming to the front door, dad getting up to see what's going on, dad getting shot through the door, the door being kicked in, mom being shot, mom being found in the bathroom, someone getting to a phone, someone making the call. It's a bit like a car accident where you slow down and can't look away.

I think the 25 minutes timeline is most likely.

The suspect should be thankful that that he got away with it and that Jayme is a kind child.

 

[MesquiteO21]

I am assuming that the suspect took Jayme somewhere after he abducted her, and it wasn't just a convenient cornfield or pig farm. I am suggesting that he planned to take her to a specific place well before taking her.

I agree which unfortunately makes it about 100 times harder to locate her One aspect I have not waivered on is that if Jayme was not the original target--wrong house, ran out of bullets,etc -- she would still be somewhere in the Barron vicinity. If you are not planning on having a 13 year old - or any person really- in your possession you are going to want to get rid of them asap. And she still could be in Barron or surrounding and just hasn't been found yet, but as more time goes on and especially with more hunters inadvertently conducting searches with nothing found, the more I think she is not in or around Barron.

The questions then, become very important for the general public--who do you know that was missing for a bit of time starting on Oct 15? Who do you know that appears to have put more miles on their car? Or suddenly had an excuse as to why they drove to a certain area and back? Was perp unemployed and didn't have contact with anyone? Seems unlikely. Someone knows something even if they don't realize they know.

 

[otto]

I, too, think the perp "took Jayme because he wanted to, not because his gun stopped working." That aside, I was simply pointing out a possible explanation for why she was taken, if the perp hadn't originally planned on doing so.

As far as the claim that "It is not more time consuming to stab a victim than shoot at close range - with Jayme being the victim" -- I disagree. If the perp didn't bring a knife, he/she would likely have had to find one in the kitchen while containing a struggling victim, before acting w/ the weapon against a combative target. That takes longer than "bang."

On the topic of it having "been reported that there were two gunshots," what has actually been reported is that some neighbors who live fairly close to the Closs' say they heard what they think were two gunshots. No confirmation that what they heard were actually gunshots, and no information at all from LE on the number of gunshots that were fired at the Closs' house.

As soon as the 911 call was made, as soon as he realized that someone made the call, he had mere minutes to get out of there. He had time to use a knife on Jayme or take her with. He was nimble enough to leave quickly with Jayme. It was 8 minutes between the time of the phone call and arrival of police.

He was clever enough to get away with it.

 

[Gardener1850]

For some reason I am unable to view the video on my iPad but bless his heart for dedicating this song to Jayme.

 

[otto]

I agree which unfortunately makes it about 100 times harder to locate her One aspect I have not waivered on is that if Jayme was not the original target--wrong house, ran out of bullets,etc -- she would still be somewhere in the Barron vicinity. If you are not planning on having a 13 year old - or any person really- in your possession you are going to want to get rid of them asap. And she still could be in Barron or surrounding and just hasn't been found yet, but as more time goes on and especially with more hunters inadvertently conducting searches with nothing found, the more I think she is not in or around Barron.

The questions then, become very important for the general public--who do you know that was missing for a bit of time starting on Oct 15? Who do you know that appears to have put more miles on their car? Or suddenly had an excuse as to why they drove to a certain area and back? Was perp unemployed and didn't have contact with anyone? Seems unlikely. Someone knows something even if they don't realize they know.

Who do you know is probably a good question.
Who in the area seems a bit perked up, but nothing in his life changed?

This seems like the sort of suspect where only his mother knows where he was that day, like a family property near Barron.

 

[mtnlites]

It’s totally bizarre that anybody could connect this story to Jayme Closs - yet Facebook exploded this afternoon as soon as they heard “wanted in Wisconsin”. I’m convinced that Facebook needs to crack down on these “closed groups” that cook up this garbage.

Me too. During the Watts' presser today, the DA even said that social media rumors and speculations made the investigation more difficult. I am sure the same could be said for this case.

 

[mtnlites]

Do you guys think she was taken out of the county? I’m torn on that.

No, and I suspect that if she was the target then she's probably nearby. I think it was someone who had Jayme on his radar, and with that in mind it's either a local or someone who regularly visits. Kidnapping victims don't have to be taken abroad or states away to be held captive-look how many victims were held in the same town. And sometimes in the same neighborhood. This person's absence may have not been missed because it never happened. He could be carrying on life as usual. An underground bunker, a basement, or simply a locked room would hold someone inside.

 

[otto]

No, and I suspect that if she was the target then she's probably nearby. I think it was someone who had Jayme on his radar, and with that in mind it's either a local or someone who regularly visits. Kidnapping victims don't have to be taken abroad or states away to be held captive-look how many victims were held in the same town. And sometimes in the same neighborhood. This person's absence may have not been missed because it never happened. He could be carrying on life as usual. An underground bunker, a basement, or simply a locked room would hold someone inside.

Either he had a plan for her prior to the abduction, and that involved being held captive, or he didn't.

He took her from the murder scene. If he didn't have a plan, her body should have been found somewhere in the roughly 20 mile radius of her home.

Her body has not been found. There has been a thorough search by SAR professionals? ... so ... he had a plan prior to abducting her that included a place to put her?

He was clever enough to get away with it. Commendable.

 

[mtnlites]

Either he had a plan for her prior to the abduction, and that involved being held captive, or he didn't.

He took her from the murder scene. If he didn't have a plan, her body should have been found somewhere in the roughly 20 mile radius of her home.

Her body has not been found. There has been a thorough search by SAR professionals? ... so ... he had a plan prior to abducting her that included a place to put her?

He was clever enough to get away with it. Commendable.

I agree. If he hadn't planned on taking her, then I think he would've killed her shortly thereafter and, like others before, her body would have been uncovered in a field or patch of woods someplace. Taking a hostage is difficult but keeping one is even MORE difficult. Since her body hasn't been recovered, I have to think that this was pre-planned and he had a place either ready for her or he had a place that could quickly be converted. I lean towards the former.

I'm not ruling out other ideas, but right now I think it's someone who at least knew of the Closses (if not personally friends with them) and someone who had the ability to observe Jayme on at least one occasion.

 

[MsFacetious]

The will to live is powerful. If she is alive, she knows she has to survive. I can't shake the idea that her survival is balanced on the effort it took to take her.

I definitely think her odds of survival are increased because of the effort put into taking her. It reminds me of the Groene, Bain, Anderson and other cases.

The will to live IS powerful. However, if she is alive the question would be whether she would want to be. With many of these kids they had their parent(s) waiting for them at home. Jayme does not.

Obviously none of us can know what Jayme is thinking or what Jayme would want. I just hope that Jayme gets a chance to heal and move on from all of the trauma she has been through.

 

[Pretty Go Pale]

He was clever enough to get away with it. Commendable.

More likely, imo, the perp is a largely uneducated lummox who was lucky enough to get away with it for a short time, but will ultimately be apprehended due to his own ignorance.

 

[mtnlites]

More likely, imo, the perp is a largely uneducated lummox who was lucky enough to get away with it for a short time, but will ultimately be apprehended due to his own ignorance.

I wonder how Ariel Castro figures into that. I honestly don't know much about him, intelligence wise. Did he go undetected all those years because he was smart or lucky? Same with Jaycee Duggard's captors. I guess at some point Stockholm Syndrome eventually comes into play and it just becomes easier to maintain control. (I still have questions about the Fritzl case and how there weren't some warning signs when babies just started appearing on the doorstep.)