AMBER ALERT WI - Jayme Closs, 13, Barron, missing after parents found shot to death, 15 Oct 2018 *endangered* #8

[MsBetsy]

Why would someone get killed for a gambling debt? There is no money to get if he is dead

I think you need to watch more gangster movies.

 

[Trocroc9]

Why would someone get killed for a gambling debt? There is no money to get if he is dead

People borrow money to gamble it’s an addiction. Somebody might have borrowed a lot of money and owed somebody a lot of money.

 

[Steelslady]

I find the kicking in door odd from no matter what side you look at it. Aren’t there many better ways to break in to as a perp/or access your own house as the resident? There’s something really immediate and single minded about kicking in a door.

No matter how one slices it, I just can't wrap my head around this person kicking in the door. First of all, if I heard some monster trying to kick my door in, I would call 911 immediately and if possible, either shut the lights off if there was time or just hide while waiting for the cops to arrive.

This does not make sense to me at all. It is not a large house!!!! You would hear someone kicking in a door from any part of the house. If the father was aware that the door was being kicked in, I don't understand why he didn't call the cops first. Or the wife or Jayme.

This is why I feel like it is possible that the Dad was trying to kick the door in- he heard screaming, and either locked himself out or the perp locked or barracaded the door.

I could be wrong, and stranger things have happened in some of these cases, but it's just odd to me that no one thought to call 911 while the door was being kicked hard, no doubt. Not even the neighbor heard that.

 

[2Hope4]

Well IMO, the neighbor heard gun shots, however, we don't know that those were the first shots towards the victims. One person could have already been killed by the time the neighbor got home and then heard the shots from the second killing.

 

[MsBetsy]

Israel Keyes loved killing random people. Maybe this is another freak of nature.

It absolutely is possible. I think.

 

[feendrache]

Or maybe debt to someone like a loanshark that wants them to payup. Double homicide for failure to "stick to payment agreement" and will use daughter to recover their money.

I don't think this may be what bagpipes or not happened but it is a possible scenario that fits with abducting Jayme after killing both parents that came to mind.

Perhaps the killer is impulsive, disorganized and didn't think to bring extra bullets.
A .45 Colt (a big gun like described by the neighbor) holds six bullets. Perhaps the killer used 2 shots to kill the dad and then had to shoot through the locked bathroom door 4 times to kill the mom. He wouldn't have any bullets left to kill Jayme, yet she was a witness and needed to die.

Hmm... of all the speculations I have concerning possibilities regarding the perp, being unorganized and impulsive is not anywhere close to the top.

Impulsive and disorganized doesn't disappear into thin air with a child after murdering her parents in their own home.

Also, he could just snap her neck instead of strangle her if time was the concern.

 

[not.a.muggle]

Unless it’s a rape and murder. Leaving obvious DNA behind is much more of a risk than kidnapping

I don't see someone murdering two people just to get to the third to rape and murder her. If it was premeditated rape and kidnapping/murder, why target someone who is home with her parents? Unless the person(s) wanted to do as much damage as they could. I keep thinking of the Petit family.

I think the perp(s) knew 911 was called and had to get out of there as quickly as possible, taking Jayme because she was a witness and they didn't have the time or the means to kill her (or injure her with enough certainty that she would die before she could tell LE what she knew).

 

[MassGuy]

What is difficult for me is the two other main reasons for kidnapping (ransom and revenge) are ruled out because her parents were killed. Her parents are not there to pay the ransom and they're not suffering missing her because they were predeceased.

Exactly. Nothing seems to fit here, except for Jayme being the target.

But there’s even issues with that scenario.

 

[bluesneakers]

People borrow money to gamble it’s an addiction. Somebody might have borrowed a lot of money and owed somebody a lot of money.

So you think her father borrowed money to pay for his gambling addiction. Then when he didn't pay the loan shark sent someone to collect, but instead of collecting he killed the parents and kidnapped Jayme? I think the muscle is going to have a LOT of explaining to do if you're correct.

What's your source for the father's gambling addiction and money problems? TIA

 

[pinkfly]

I have been paying close attention to @SharonNeedles and @MassGuy tonight as I have been trying to figure out why I keep sitting on the fence about this. They are both bringing up great points.

Right now I am thinking that someone there to commit revenge/debt/wrong house/job issues/etc murder isn't going to just decide he wants to take a 13 year old girl.

But, it seems a little more likely that someone intent on having said 13 year old girl might resort to murder to have her.

None of us think he took her to raise. Taking her seems to imply wanting her.

A murderer won't suddenly decide her wants her but a pedo might decide he wants her that much.

Either way I have a dreadful feeling in my gut for that poor child.

 

[Wrenny]

Dad goes to door because he hears knocking or doorbell,

Then what? He asks who is there and they kick in the door which would take time.

Maybe he goes to the door because he hears them kicking it in.

 

[Gardener1850]

Hmmm... I agree with all that except that the guy wanted her sexually. I just don’t see a pedophile stepping up his game to just throw in a double homicide for no real reason.

It's not necessarily "no real reason" to him if taking her is his goal. It may even feed his fantasy to have to have killed in order to get her. It's a different situation, but I keep thinking of Todd Kohlhepp in this regard. He lured couples to his property by promising to pay them for helping him with cleaning or landscaping work. He would shoot the man to death and then take the woman as a hostage and keep her chained up in shipping container on his property. He did this twice with two different couples before the second woman (KB) was rescued and TK arrested (first woman was sadly murdered).

There was lots of psychological theorizing that somehow murdering the men and taking the women made TK feel more powerful than if he had simply abducted the women. Or perhaps he felt he needed to take the man out of the picture in order to get her to forget about her significant other and pay full attention to him. He also used it as a terrorizing tactic to keep the women under his control. He used to let KB out to walk around on the property with him (while he was armed) and he showed her where previous victims, including her boyfriend, were buried. He made it clear if she tried to fight or tired to escape he would kill her. She survived by being very compliant to all his demands and playing along with his sick games (and because LE finally found her).

I have been thinking that in a lot of ways what we may have in this case is a similar-minded perp to TK but with parents instead of couples-- perhaps he needs to feel powerful, needs to control and terrorize the victim, or needs to remove the people he sees as barriers to the victim being fully his. And perhaps he believes the only way he will get that satisfaction of his evil desires is by murdering the parents. This is a sick mind, there is no fully understanding it or reasoning with it. IMO.

I pray that Jayme is enduring and somehow making him believe she will not try to escape. I pray she is somehow staying strong, focusing on her loving family and blocking it all out. But unfortunately, I fear he may have killed her within 24 hours of being taken.
MOO.

ETA: We have an entire forum here for anyone who wants to read more on TK: Todd Kohlhepp

 

[Alethea]

Exactly. Nothing seems to fit here, except for Jayme being the target.

But there’s even issues with that scenario.

I have been dismissing this because of the tight timeline but it could just be a seriously deranged psychopath who wanted to kill them for fun and there's no real motive behind it. I have not really entertained it because of the time between the call and LE showing up. I wouldn't think a disorganized ill killer would be 1) neat enough to not leave evidence behind, 2) have no criminal record where he was unknown to LE, and 3) could leave without a trace in 4 minutes. Maybe it was luck, or maybe there is DNA or fingerprint evidence that just hasn't been processed yet.

 

[Alexsea]

No matter how one slices it, I just can't wrap my head around this person kicking in the door. First of all, if I heard some monster trying to kick my door in, I would call 911 immediately and if possible, either shut the lights off if there was time or just hide while waiting for the cops to arrive.

This does not make sense to me at all. It is not a large house!!!! You would hear someone kicking in a door from any part of the house. If the father was aware that the door was being kicked in, I don't understand why he didn't call the cops first. Or the wife or Jayme.

This is why I feel like it is possible that the Dad was trying to kick the door in- he heard screaming, and either locked himself out or the perp locked or barracaded the door.

I could be wrong, and stranger things have happened in some of these cases, but it's just odd to me that no one thought to call 911 while the door was being kicked hard, no doubt. Not even the neighbor heard that.

There’s a weirdness here that needs explaining one way or the other. I don’t think it is clear, and we can’t know with the facts we have. It’s important to moving forward to what happened next.

 

[SharonNeedles]

Colt revolver holds 6 shots.
View attachment 152164

A revolver? Oh lord, that’s enough internet for tonight. See you all in the morning.

 

[NatalieSheild]

The Chair being carried out is a big deal IMO. Definitely not standard cushion ties on that. Seperate rope or string was used plus it was covered in blood. That explains initial gun shots heard by neighbors and the time it took for the 911 call. The barricaded bathroom doesnt fit that scenario however neither does the 4 min escape time

About this chair.. I was just thinking, LE wouldn’t cut a cushion off if it had evidentiary value. I’d think they’d untie the cushion and package it according to evidence procedures. And those strings look more like thinner rope or shoe laces. They wouldn’t remove them because- evidence.

That chair or those strings/rope has evidence on it. there’s not a bag big enough to put it in, and that’s why I believe it was carried out like that.

 

[MesquiteO21]

Both of her parents are dead, which is a stark contrast from most missing person’s cases.

This guy has killed already, and there is no reason to believe that appeals to him would have any effect.

Its hard to even imagine the mindset of these family members. I suppose that it’s entirely possible that they are terrified of becoming targets.

For sure. And I do apologize if my post seemed too callous and critical. If it were my family, I would be taking those points into consideration too and I doubt I'd be able to relay a message via the media. I was just wondering if it could possibly be a clue of some kind. And does make me sad because I want Jayme found, as we all do. Can't imagine losing your family in such a way and my heart truly goes out to all of them.

 

[Trocroc9]

So you think her father borrowed money to pay for his gambling addiction. Then when he didn't pay the loan shark sent someone to collect, but instead of collecting he killed the parents and kidnapped Jayme? I think the muscle is going to have a LOT of explaining to do if you're correct.

What's your source for the father's gambling addiction and money problems?

 

[not.a.muggle]

No matter how one slices it, I just can't wrap my head around this person kicking in the door. First of all, if I heard some monster trying to kick my door in, I would call 911 immediately and if possible, either shut the lights off if there was time or just hide while waiting for the cops to arrive.

This does not make sense to me at all. It is not a large house!!!! You would hear someone kicking in a door from any part of the house. If the father was aware that the door was being kicked in, I don't understand why he didn't call the cops first. Or the wife or Jayme.

BBM

I almost always turn my phone off at night. It would take a minute for me to turn my phone on and then call.

I will no longer be turning my phone off at night...

 

[ashley smith]

I have been thinking about the online gaming somemore. There are thousands of different games with chatrooms. Theirs also games like IMVU which is similar to sims but you communicate with real people and chat with them, and theirs no monitoring at all. Theirs also card game chat rooms, even online games inspired by tv reality games like survivor or big brother, where you can chat with people as well and make friends. Possibilties are endless. Jayme could of easily made a friend by playing one of these games and they took and intrest in her and pretended to be someone they werent.