GUILTY WI - Kara Neumann, 11, dies as parents rely on faith healing, Weston, 23 March 2008

[sherri79]

None taken!

I too believe in the power of prayer and think people should have the right to practice that in their lives and their family's lives without penalty.

It is always, of course, hard in a situation like this when a child dies because you can say that the child didn't have a choice. There was no evidence of abuse in this house and the other children were not removed. I believe that they believe they were doing the best thing they could to help their child. I am sorry that this choice ended in her death. But seeking medical treatment can also end in death.

I do not consider these parents stupid, though I would have probably made different choices.

where do we draw the line? if a mom catches her husband having sex with her 3 year old and prays that god removes the desire from his heart instead of calling police should she still not face a penalty when he rapes her 2 year old?

 

[KarlK]

I would be very surprised if this case finds the parents serving time.

So would I, if convicted of criminal negligence they will probably sentenced to community service time. It's not about sending them to jail, it's about sending a message that seeking medical care is not against Christian beliefs.

Being a non-believer, I would get into trouble if I expressed my outright opinion on this case. That poor child didn't deserve to suffer like that...

I'm a Unitarian agnostic so to speak, I belong to that Church because it's more of a philosophical society than a Church, has no creed and requires no commitment to a belief system, so religion doesn't occupy much space in my life. I only attend church if the subject debated on a particular week is of interest to me, and while I believe in a supreme being (the Universe is a living entity), I don't believe in a human-like God who watches our every move. The supreme being did not create intelligent creatures so that we would rely on Him (or It) to save us from our ignorance, I believe it is man's duty to use our intellectual faculties, our science, for the betterment of our world, and that includes using the resources of medical science to allow sick people to heal and be allowed to fulfill their purpose in life. That girl died from a very common and very treatable condition, there is no greater shame than wasting a life when there are alternatives. To quote what I heard eons ago in Sunday school:

Help thyself, Heaven will help thee

Like someone said above when your car breaks down you don't pray for God to fix it, you take it to a mechanic. Of course it's perfectly acceptable for one to pray that the mechanic will be able to fix the car, but action must be taken first. I believe that harmful beliefs must be challenged.

 

[southcitymom]

where do we draw the line? if a mom catches her husband having sex with her 3 year old and prays that god removes the desire from his heart instead of calling police should she still not face a penalty when he rapes her 2 year old?

I agree that there is a line and it may be morally "near" this case. But the scenario you describe is much different to me (just me - obviously not others) than this case.

A mother who leaves a young child in a car while she goes shopping is much different to me than this case.

I will go so far as to say that - like this family - I believe to the bottom of my heart and the best of my ability that prayer can cure the sick, give sight to the blind and raise the dead. I do not find this family's beliefs odd. Now - I do not have enough faith to rely only on prayer. I'm fearful enough to want to hedge my bets at every turn!! Y'all would say that makes me smart, but honestly - it's my lack of faith.

We don't have a lot of information about these parents, but they felt like their faith was enough. They did not set out to kill their daughter or let her die in pain. They set out to heal their daughter in the best way they knew how. I cannot say they were as selfish as the mother who leaves her child strapped into a car to go shopping - for all I know these parents and their community kept a constant exhausting vigil of prayer around the clock for this girl and were as selfless as any of us can imagine.

Many believe they put their faith into the wrong thing and that because of this wrong choice, their daughter died. Many want them to be ounished for that. I believe they will live with their pain for the rest of their days and don;t see how charging them helps anyone. By all accounts, they loved and love their children.

 

[southcitymom]

it's about sending a message that seeking medical care is not against Christian beliefs.....

But medical care is against some Christian's beliefs. The spectrum of Christianity is wide and disparate.

 

[Vegas Bride]

It's hard for me to understand the mindset that allowed this to happen. The parents watched their little girl suffer and get worse every day for atleast a month, from what I understand, the only thing done was to pray and ask others to pray. It was another relative in another state who contacted authorities but by then it was to late. How many other people were aware of this girls condition and could no one who could see what was going on have the sense of mind how serious things had become?
What would parents like this do if their child was in a lake drowning? Would they throw them a rope or would they simply stand at the shore and pray about it? Not saying there's anything wrong with prayer but many times action also is needed!
It would be interesting to see data on how long people who shun any health care live, these parents will one day begin having some health issues of their own, I guess they can just pray for themselves.

VB

 

[SeriouslySearching]

If medical treatment was made available to this child when she was 3 and their faith allowed that then, then the same medical treatment was available right before she died.

I think you hit the nail on the head with your comment. The medical care she received when she was 3 invalidates their argument to let her die when she was older by denying her. This proves they were not ignorant to the basic need for medical intervention and had willingly provided care to the same child before.

 

[DeltaDawn]

I think that the parents need to be held accountable legally for this child's death. I do not care what they say there religion is or is not..they knowingly let there child die when there was treatment available. They exercised poor judgement and that should not be atrributed to relgion. God said there would be many false gods and people would take many wrong paths. However he never said that you could be negligent and then just pray to take care of things. It was a value judgement they made as surly as if they let their children play in traffic and then prayed they didn't get run over by any cars..thinking God would intervene. God has given us brains, hands and compassion. Those things have never shown better then in the medical field and the field of disease. Prayer is for the doctors finding the illness, providing a treatment and the treatment working. That is what prayer does. God wants us to use all the abilities we have, because every ability comes from God and then men working in unison.

I am sorry if I step on any one's toes with my beliefs but to let a child live in pain and die a horrible death when it was not needed is a sin. They killed this child through their own inaction to get her the help that God made available to them. They just don't seem to have any common sense.

 

[sherri79]

I agree that there is a line and it may be morally "near" this case. But the scenario you describe is much different to me (just me - obviously not others) than this case.

A mother who leaves a young child in a car while she goes shopping is much different to me than this case.

I will go so far as to say that - like this family - I believe to the bottom of my heart and the best of my ability that prayer can cure the sick, give sight to the blind and raise the dead. I do not find this family's beliefs odd. Now - I do not have enough faith to rely only on prayer. I'm fearful enough to want to hedge my bets at every turn!! Y'all would say that makes me smart, but honestly - it's my lack of faith.

We don't have a lot of information about these parents, but they felt like their faith was enough. They did not set out to kill their daughter or let her die in pain. They set out to heal their daughter in the best way they knew how. I cannot say they were as selfish as the mother who leaves her child strapped into a car to go shopping - for all I know these parents and their community kept a constant exhausting vigil of prayer around the clock for this girl and were as selfless as any of us can imagine.

Many believe they put their faith into the wrong thing and that because of this wrong choice, their daughter died. Many want them to be ounished for that. I believe they will live with their pain for the rest of their days and don;t see how charging them helps anyone. By all accounts, they loved and love their children.

i will address the points in your post in reverse order.

will the parents suffer enough? yes. that should be reflected in the punishment to the decision to charge. we have laws and when you break a law you should be charged. guilt, grief, prior bad acts, and malice are things we look at that can go between probation to years in jail. that is the job of the judge and jury not the police or DA.

they did not set out to kill their child. i do not think they should be charged with murder. they did neglect the needs of their child. a parent has a legal duty to provide the things their child needs to live. failure to do so is neglect. neglect does not always imply a evil parent. it means a parent that does not do what is reasonable to keep their child safe.

i do believe prayer can heal. i have lived it. i have seen prayer heal what doctors can not. i still take my children to doctors. god helps those that help themselves. these parents felt diffrent and that is their right. believe as you wish and practice those beliefs. god bless this country no matter what god you pick. this is america and i can believe in god or satan or nothing or karma or little green men that seeded the earth with their dna if i want. my rights stop where yours start. these parents want to get bit by a rabid bat and pray away the thirst more power to them. as a parent their legal duty to their child required more responcable action on their part.

the line i drew is diffrent in this case than the example i used. in my example a child lived but was hurt. how is asking god to heal the soul and having faith it will work differnt than asking him to heal the body?

 

[Linda7NJ]

In my opinion what those parents did was exactly the same as Andrea Yates drowning her children or the woman that bashed her children's head in with a rock!

What they did was criminal! If they left a dog tied up outside & suffering like that for 30 days it would be a crime.

 

[SeriouslySearching]

If they left a dog tied up outside & suffering like that for 30 days it would be a crime.

I guess not if they were praying over it with the help of their friends.

 

[scarpetta]

I had another thought about this article that I started to post, but then I stopped. I decided instead to ask myself why I was debating this issue at all.

I am arguing points of, what are to me, common sense because the grief I feel over this little girl’s death saddens me in a way that makes me cry when I look at her picture. She died and that made me cry. The decision her parents made that allowed her to suffer and die also made me angry. Inside I thought that they should have never done that. If only someone could have rescued her in time. That thought makes me cry again.


I think when it is grief that is asking the question, Logic never seems to have an answer. But still I debate as though that will make a difference. What I really want to say in my most honest moment is that I wish there was a secret door, a wormhole, or a hidden corridor that leads to a room that is filled with the least amount of things that are not God. A way of narrowing down the options in a moment of sadness. Maybe then I could figure out why there is all the clutter here, and why it is that this particular clutter that makes up all of those perceptions about God and faith seem to be so abrasive at times, and destructive to some at other times.

But even without that particular answer, and even without a room that eliminates all but the obvious, I still keep coming back to the one point that seems the saddest of all.

They were given a living gift and instead of making use of the resources available, they sat asking the giver to do something in addition to what he had already done. In reality, I will never be able to find an answer that matches the depth of my question.

 

[PaperDoll]

I believe in God and I believe He can do whatever He wants. I also believe he gave us gifts to use so we can help others. He uses humans to do some of His work. I believe the medical field is one of them. They should have taken her to the doctors for help, and of coursed prayed as well. If the doctors couldn't save her, then it's God's will that she dies, which she did. God does answer prayer but sometimes it's not in the way we think it should be answered... Faith without works is DEAD!!! There is nothing wrong with going to the doctors for help.. I believe the parents were wrong in this.. Now, if the girl was of age and could make up her own mind, then she has that right to not seek medical treatment..

 

[CyberLaw]

Please do not confuse "mental illness" with the "true" belief some have that "prayer and god heals all human suffering.

Apples and oranges........

The parents did not take the child to the doctor at three to receive "medical attention", they took her to get vaccinated.

I do not defend these parents, not in the least, but if you put them on trial, you put their religion on trial. There are issues about a parents right, a states right, the interest of the state, religion, and the document of the founding fathers.

Can anyone look up the state law and if spirtual healing is a valid defense.

The defense will be "that they acted within their faith, their faith states......that they did not allow their child to die, that they did quite the opposite, they "prayed" for her recovery, that they did not know that she was near death or that she would die. That they put their "faith" in God to heal their child, that it was God's will that she died and that no "man or medical person" can interfere with the "plan of God".

But that does not mean that they will not be convicted.........

 

[Linda7NJ]

It reminds me of that joke


There was a very religious man named Jim, who lived near a river. One day, the river rose over the banks and flooded the town, and Jim was forced to climb onto his porch roof. While sitting there, a man in a boat came along and told Jim to get in the boat with him.
Jim said, "No, that's okay. God will take care of me."
So, the man in the boat drove off.
The water rose higher, so Jim climbed onto his roof. At that time, another boat came along, and the person in that one told Jim to get in.
Jim replied, "No, that's okay. God will take care of me."
The person in the boat then left.
The water rose even more, and Jim climbed onto his chimney. A helicopter came along and lowered a ladder for him. The woman in the helicopter told Jim to climb up the ladder and get in.
Jim said, "That's okay."
The woman said, "Are you sure?"
Jim replied, "Yeah, I'm sure God will take care of me." Finally, the water rose too high and Jim drowned. Jim got to heaven and was face-to-face with God.

 

[Annie]

I believe in prayer, but I also believe in doctors. I have been diabetic for 25 years and am still healty because of the medicines I take and watching my diet. That child should not have died when help was so readily available. If that isn't neglect of a child, I don't know what is. How could parents just sit there and let their child die? I wish someone would have stepped up and notified authorities before this happened. To me it is the same as watching a child drown while you pray, when you could have gone in and saved them.

 

[southcitymom]

i do believe prayer can heal. i have lived it. i have seen prayer heal what doctors can not.

I've seen this too, sherri. If you believe this and I believe this, then why is it wrong for them to believe this - that prayer can heal things. Are doctors the first resort and God the last? For many this is the order, but it is not wrong, IMHO, to believe and act like God is first and doctors aren't an option.

 

[southcitymom]

I believe in prayer, but I also believe in doctors. I have been diabetic for 25 years and am still healty because of the medicines I take and watching my diet. That child should not have died when help was so readily available. If that isn't neglect of a child, I don't know what is. How could parents just sit there and let their child die? I wish someone would have stepped up and notified authorities before this happened. To me it is the same as watching a child drown while you pray, when you could have gone in and saved them.

My sister is a bright educated woman with very little belief or faith in western medicine. Her children will never see a needle that contains a vaccine of any sort near them. If one of her chiildren gets whooping cough and dies from it, is she negligent? Should she be charged? I don't think so, but some folks (my Mom for one! ) do.

I think flu shots are ridiculous and never have or will have my children vaccinated for the flu. If one of my children catches the flu and dies should, am I negligent, should I be charged? IMHO - nope.

 

[KOOL LOOK]

My sister is a bright educated woman with very little belief or faith in western medicine. Her children will never see a needle that contains a vaccine of any sort near them. If one of her chiildren gets whooping cough and dies from it, is she negligent? Should she be charged? I don't think so, but some folks (my Mom for one! ) do.

I think flu shots are ridiculous and never have or will have my children vaccinated for the flu. If one of my children catches the flu and dies should, am I negligent, should I be charged? IMHO - nope.

Have we found another good discussion, eh? I'm enjoying sitting back reading the posts, think I'll stay out for a while and get more takes on this as it's truly entertaining to read.

Scarpetta, I could really really feel what place in your soul you were coming from. I want to assure you of a couple of things darling.

God is not the author of confusion. Jesus is the Prince of Peace. We have a Holy Comforter thus why your posts change from anger, to confusion to strength all in the same thoughts. The Holy Spirit is speaking the truth inside of you, and you're warring with your thoughts versus your spirit in wisdom and knowledge.

Please don't get discouraged, you're far more spiritual than you realize, as I was touched in a special way by reading your posts here. There is an answer to all this mass mess and confusion.

It's knowing God's very nature and word. I'm not going to go to much more at length, but I can assure you that prayers are answered, healings have already been approved long before we're even born and become sick, God does heal, he also annoints our Doctors and the medicines we use to heal, on and on.

This little angel shouldn't have died due to this treatable condition. Why God didn't completely heal her there could be many many reasons. A thought to ponder: Maybe he did lead them to take her to the doctors and give her the needed medical procedures and medicine, even so much as making doors open easily to treat her, and they rebelled? Which in fact they weren't rebuking the Doctors, medicine or their very own daughter, they were actually rebuking the Living God. See it's much bigger than the surface of it all. I don't know if this is the case, but I can assure you my children have a divine protection of covering from the Father.

My son Beau, te he, the best little fella ever born he is, has never been sick or to a doctor other than well check ups (2) and immunizations and he'll be 10 next month. Praise God!

Blessed Assurance is what we have, something went very wrong in this case, sadly. Allright, carry on Southcitymom, didn't mean to take over this thread is interesting to get the different takes, thanks members for chiming in, all of you.

ETA: So glad I didn't want to jump in yet, eh folks? Duh!!

God and Jesus heals. Doctors don't. They fix things. They can fix a broken leg, they can operate and fix anything on or in the body, and give medicines to treat sicknesses, but only God heals.

 

[csds703]

Please do not confuse "mental illness" with the "true" belief some have that "prayer and god heals all human suffering.

Apples and oranges........

The parents did not take the child to the doctor at three to receive "medical attention", they took her to get vaccinated.

I do not defend these parents, not in the least, but if you put them on trial, you put their religion on trial. There are issues about a parents right, a states right, the interest of the state, religion, and the document of the founding fathers.

Can anyone look up the state law and if spirtual healing is a valid defense.

The defense will be "that they acted within their faith, their faith states......that they did not allow their child to die, that they did quite the opposite, they "prayed" for her recovery, that they did not know that she was near death or that she would die. That they put their "faith" in God to heal their child, that it was God's will that she died and that no "man or medical person" can interfere with the "plan of God".

But that does not mean that they will not be convicted.........

I agree with everything you said, the bolded part is what I've been trying to point out.
I do not agree with their decsion, but I feel the need to defend their right to their beliefs.

 

[csds703]

That law recently applied to Warren Jeffs, the "prophet" of the Fundamentalist's Church of Christ of LDS. He was convicted. The parents of these children who were raped gave Jeffs the authority to do everything he did. It was their Godly duty. The parents did not seek justice, the children who escaped did.

This may be an antiquated thought that I have that has become outdated and replaced with ideas that I have completely missed....but I still believe that it is the responsibility of parents to do everything they can to sustain the life of their child, and to work at providing a life for them in the best way with what they have to work with. The parents in this recent article that we are discussing and debating did not make use of everything they had available. If medical treatment was made available to this child when she was 3 and their faith allowed that then, then the same medical treatment was available right before she died. I noticed that along with the lack of medical treatment they had also pulled their children out of school. This is not necessarily a bad thing if they were home schooling them. But it does look very much like a pattern of extremism that often includes increased isolation of the family unit and an increased amount of religious extremism that eventually puts some or all in some sort of distress or danger.

You are right about religious extremism. The problem is where is it considered extremism, and who gets to decide.