GUILTY WI - Kara Neumann, 11, dies as parents rely on faith healing, Weston, 23 March 2008

[southcitymom]

Oh and one other thing....

The parents prayers were answered. This child is truly healed now.
Isn't she?

:clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap: Yes - I believe she is. We cannot say that their prayers didn't work.

 

[SeriouslySearching]

Do you really believe that praying is doing nothing? Do you really believe that praying is not offering aide? If you do - that's cool and I respect that. But I do want to point out that lots of people see prayer as a powerful action. On this site alone, we have threads devoted to people seeking prayers from their friends.

You might think prayer is complete crap, but I think you'd be in the minority. It's a matter of degree for most people. Many people believe in prayer up to a certain point but do not have the faith that prayer is all-powerful.

I am not going to debate my religious beliefs here, but what I will say is that while some Muslims pray many times a day for death to Americans...my faith allows me to not only pray for children who cannot protect themselves against radical religious sects who abuse them, but to pray that the people in power will prosecute the ones who use religion as a basis to harm others.

 

[southcitymom]

I am not going to debate my religious beliefs here, but what I will say is that while some Muslims pray many times a day for death to Americans...my faith allows me to not only pray for children who cannot protect themselves against radical religious sects who abuse them, but to pray that the people in power will prosecute the ones who use religion to harm others.

And that's awesome - I am so glad that you have the freedom to pray however you need to pray!

Most people I know believe in prayer!

 

[joe jones]

If I recall correctly the girl in this article went to the dr when she was 3 for a vaccine, but that's all the healthcare she had been known to have.

I was wondering more about the parents, also what medical care/intervention the mother may have had during her pregnancies,

is it an all inclusive we never seek medical attention type situation, or is it selective as to when they think they need to pray or go to the DRs,

 

[Eire]

Is this true? Many people cannot afford to take their children to get basic health care. Can we charge all of them with neglect? I am not being a smart alec - I'm truly wondering?

In all honesty, I don't know. I do know that ERs aren't allowed to turn anyone away due to their lack of money or insurance. Immunizations are often free of charge for low-income people (in PA at least). We're not talking about immunizations though, we're talking abour medical care for an obvious ailment.

I've never heard of a case where a parent just didn't seek healthcare for a child because they were lazy. All the cases I read like this one at hand have a religious component - a thoughtful choice was made and the choice was made on principal and belief.

I can't quote exact cases, but I certainly have heard of parents not getting medical care for their children for reasons other than religious ones. I can offer anecdotal evidence, plenty of it, but you'd have to take my word for it as it wasn't national headline material.

I will try to answer your hypothetical, but I need more details. Why did the parents in your hypothetical not take the child for medical care - were they watching soap operas and eating bon bons for 30 days while the child writhed in agony at their feet? I'm just trying to envision a scenario that makes sense - help me out - I am not offended by the question at all.

Any reason other than a religious one. Say the parents just didn't give a damn. Their child was obviously sick, but they didn't seek medical care. Are they entitled to do that? Or, throw in drug abuse if you want to or some other addiction or anything other than religious convictions.

I'm a huge supporter of freedom of religion, I just don't believe children choose their faith. They shouldn't have to die because their parents' faith tells them to pray only. By all means, pray all you want to, that's everyone's right. But, get some treatment as well. To some, prayer is a wonderful thing, that's fine and it's their right.

 

[SeriouslySearching]

So how do people feel about the radical Muslims that raise their children to become suicide bombers who go out and kill our soldiers fighting for their freedoms? Are they simply exempt because they are praying (I bet much more than any of us pray) and practicing their religious convictions?

Where do we draw the line on the power of prayer and religion when it comes to harming others or death?

 

[southcitymom]

I was wondering more about the parents, also what medical care/intervention the mother may have had during her pregnancies,

is it an all inclusive we never seek medical attention type situation, or is it selective as to when they think they need to pray or go to the DRs,

I'd like to know too, joe jones. It doesn't sound like they selectively singled this girl out to die a terrible death - I hope some more information will be released - usually these case cause an uproar - for good reason - and more info comes out.


I am off to pick up my son from school. I take him to the doctor every time he feels bad. Like most parents, I hate for my kids to hurt physically and I have no spiritual problems with seeking outside help!

Thanks for the great debate and please let me say that I truly understand the feelings behind the belief that the parents should be charged.

 

[southcitymom]

So how do people feel about the radical Muslims that raise their children to become suicide bombers who go out and kill our soldiers fighting for their freedoms? Are they simply exempt because they are praying (I bet much more than any of us pray) and practicing their religious convictions?

Where do we draw the line on the power of prayer and religion when it comes to harming others or death?

I promise to answer later - off to get my son!

 

[southcitymom]

In all honesty, I don't know. I do know that ERs aren't allowed to turn anyone away due to their lack of money or insurance. Immunizations are often free of charge for low-income people (in PA at least). We're not talking about immunizations though, we're talking abour medical care for an obvious ailment.



I can't quote exact cases, but I certainly have heard of parents not getting medical care for their children for reasons other than religious ones. I can offer anecdotal evidence, plenty of it, but you'd have to take my word for it as it wasn't national headline material.



Any reason other than a religious one. Say the parents just didn't give a damn. Their child was obviously sick, but they didn't seek medical care. Are they entitled to do that? Or, throw in drug abuse if you want to or some other addiction or anything other than religious convictions.

I'm a huge supporter of freedom of religion, I just don't believe children choose their faith. They shouldn't have to die because their parents' faith tells them to pray only. By all means, pray all you want to, that's everyone's right. But, get some treatment as well. To some, prayer is a wonderful thing, that's fine and it's their right.

I will respond when I log back on!

 

[csds703]

So how do people feel about the radical Muslims that raise their children to become suicide bombers who go out and kill our soldiers fighting for their freedoms? Are they simply exempt because they are praying (I bet much more than any of us pray) and practicing their religious convictions?

Where do we draw the line on the power of prayer and religion when it comes to harming others or death?

It is against the law to commit murder even in the name of religion. I guess the difference with this particular case is that the intent of the parents wasn't to kill their child.

 

[philamena]

Poor girl . She didn't need to die! No offense, SCM, but I hope her parents are charged! That had to have been a terrible death.

ditto :clap:
The child didn't have to suffer nor die.
The parents can call it religion of they want too.
I call it neglect.

 

[SeriouslySearching]

It is against the law to commit murder even in the name of religion. I guess the difference with this particular case is that the intent of the parents wasn't to kill their child.

When you allow another human to suffer until death overcomes them...the intent is no less malicious if you are praying.

 

[scarpetta]

When you allow another human to suffer until death overcomes them...the intent is no less malicious if you are praying.

I agree completely SS. There have been cases on this forum where parents or caregivers have left children in cars and they died from the heat. There have been cases when Child Services has intervened and rescued a child from the horrible abuse of a parent. No one questions the intervention when the parent is mentally ill and obviously lacks the mental resources to render proper care. No one defends the parent who leaves the baby in a hot car with the windows rolled up and goes shopping for 3 hours. I don't recall anyone ever jumping in and claiming that they believe the parent had the right to make that decision at their child's expense. Would it have been different if the mentally ill parent claimed that God told them to abuse their child? What if the mom claimed that she prayed before locking the car door and went into the mall?

Just because someone has not been formally diagnosed by a professional does not mean they are not mentally ill. It is no secret at all that mental illness and extreme religious beliefs have been partners throughout history. So why is it that when someone claims that they have faith, their obvious and destructive extreme beliefs are defended?

Had the article not mentioned prayer or faith at all, and instead would have used the words "mentally ill" I personally believe that most readers would nod their head while reading it as though that made perfect sense.

If you are looking at a scenario where "faith" is claimed to be the motivating factor, and yet you could just as easily replace that word with the words "mental illness" and it would make even more sense...what is it about the type of faith that you are looking at that could also be the "faith" of someone who has lost the ability to reason?

 

[CyberLaw]

But since the girl went to the doctor at the age of three(3), and the faith and probably the faith of everyone she knows "relies" on God to heal, did the girl know any different....that doctors can heal, that there is an alternative to "faith" healing and praying.

As I recall, the Police were contacted by another person in another state, that was concerned about the girl.

The Police are not "faith" healers, so of course they "knew" that taking her to the hospital may save her life.

Heck, what part of religion did not play a part in politics, the pandering to the "religous" people, the "I talk to God". Religion is a big thing in the USA, more so then other countries.

What about on USA currency, "In God we Trust", heck it is printed on money, this statement dates back to the Civil War. So, these people "trusted" God to heal their child. Others will see it as "God's will".

You "swear" to God to tell the truth in a courtroom, on a bible no less.

 

[SeriouslySearching]

You cannot mix religion and the law. We have laws against people praying their children to death. Don't we?!

 

[csds703]

When you allow another human to suffer until death overcomes them...the intent is no less malicious if you are praying.

In theory I am with you. This is a very complicated subject.
To allow freedom of religion, this also allows the fanactics the same rights. As distasteful as this might be to you and I, it is the price we pay for religious tolerance.
Maybe we need a law against fanatacism. LOL.

 

[scarpetta]

In theory I am with you. This is a very complicated subject.
To allow freedom of religion, this also allows the fanactics the same rights. As distasteful as this might be to you and I, it is the price we pay for religious tolerance.
Maybe we need a law against fanatacism. LOL.

That law recently applied to Warren Jeffs, the "prophet" of the Fundamentalist's Church of Christ of LDS. He was convicted. The parents of these children who were raped gave Jeffs the authority to do everything he did. It was their Godly duty. The parents did not seek justice, the children who escaped did.

This may be an antiquated thought that I have that has become outdated and replaced with ideas that I have completely missed....but I still believe that it is the responsibility of parents to do everything they can to sustain the life of their child, and to work at providing a life for them in the best way with what they have to work with. The parents in this recent article that we are discussing and debating did not make use of everything they had available. If medical treatment was made available to this child when she was 3 and their faith allowed that then, then the same medical treatment was available right before she died. I noticed that along with the lack of medical treatment they had also pulled their children out of school. This is not necessarily a bad thing if they were home schooling them. But it does look very much like a pattern of extremism that often includes increased isolation of the family unit and an increased amount of religious extremism that eventually puts some or all in some sort of distress or danger.

 

[sherri79]

i am about to spend the next hour trying to catch up on this thread but i want to add my 2 cents to the first topic since we can often drift on subjects like this. i believe in god and the power of prayer. these parents neglected their child to death. we have free will. we must accept responcability for what we do with it. if i believe an "eye for a eye" is a call for me to kill a killer i must face justice for what i have done. if you cut up your daughter clitoris because you think god wants you to keep from feeling sexual pleasure as she ages you abused a child a must pay for it. if you marry a 13 year old cousin because you feel it is the will of god you must pay for the crime. if you allow your child to die because god does not like doctors you are guilty of neglect and must be charged.

i know we are only allowed to talk about religon on this site as it relates to cases so if this crosses the line i am sorry for the time i wasted by forcing a mod to edit my post. my pastor told this story in church 1 sunday and i allways think of it when i read these type of stories. i do not remember where he said he heard it but he did not make it up himself btw.

a flood is coming and a officer stops at each house to tell them to flee the area. when he gets to tom's house tom will not leave. " god will save me" tom says.
the water rises and tom must flee to the second floor. a rescue boat stops and tosses tom a float to grab onto. tom leans out the window and yells " no thanks. god will save me".
the water still rises and tom is on the roof. a helicoptor drops him a line and he turns it down. " god will save me" he screams to the pilot.
tom drowns.
tom stands before god and ask "why did you not save me?"
god answers. " i sent you a cop, a boat, and a helicoptor. what more did you want?"

the moral. we have been given the tools to take care of ourselves but we must choose to use them.

 

[CyberLaw]

Some States need a law that "spirtual" healing is not a defence in denying your child medical care. That the "laws" of the courts and justice system will prevail when you choose "God's law" over and above "what is in the best interest of the child.

There has been "countless" cases of children dying because of "spirtual" healing instead of medical care.

There are many issues at play.......

It not like the parents did not have medical help available, what they needed was someone to say "you daughter is dying" to save her life you MUST take her to the hospital. But I put money that they surrounded themselves with "like minded" people who prayed with them.

These parents "chose" prayer over medical help, their choice killed their daugher.

 

[SeriouslySearching]

You have a wise Pastor. I have heard the story before...but it does merit repeating.