Witness accounts

[suzihawk]

Here we go, back into the whole "Neighborhood Watch" thing. He wasn't patrolling. He had every legal right to carry a gun and follow any individual he felt to be suspicious.

Side note about the Neighborhood Watch program, specifically about the manual. If it's so important that people do not carry a gun while patrolling, and do not follow (from a safe distance) when they're reporting, why isn't it in the manual?

http://abcnews.go.com/US/fbi-justice-department-investigate-trayvon-martin-killing/story?id=15955985

The manual, from the National Neighborhood Watch Program, states: "It should be emphasized to members that they do not possess police powers, and they shall not carry weapons or pursue vehicles. They should also be cautioned to alert police or deputies when encountering strange activity. Members should never confront suspicious persons who could be armed and dangerous."

 

[AJ Noiter]

http://abcnews.go.com/US/fbi-justice-department-investigate-trayvon-martin-killing/story?id=15955985

The manual, from the National Neighborhood Watch Program, states: "It should be emphasized to members that they do not possess police powers, and they shall not carry weapons or pursue vehicles. They should also be cautioned to alert police or deputies when encountering strange activity. Members should never confront suspicious persons who could be armed and dangerous."

Could you tell me what page they're quoting from in the Neighborhood Watch Manual ?

 

[tpgks]

Could you tell me what page they're quoting from in the Neighborhood Watch Manual ?

Page 17.

 

[Just K]

But the Feds and/or Special prosecutor were not involved at the beginning. Are you saying that had they never became involved that she should have never tried to reach out to anyone? She did not know at the time that a Special procecutor would become involved.

I stand by my statement that nothing said on the call to the girlfriend caused any great alarm to her.

By the time she knew Trayvon was dead...Sanford LE had already decided to let GZ walk freely out the door. Her family and she probably knew that LE was giving GZ a "get out of jail free card" based on the Florida SYG Law. The right thing to do was to contact a lawyer who could advice the parents of this teenager as to how to proceed re: giving a statement or not.

 

[AJ Noiter]

Page 17.

I just found it also. It's odd that the Adobe plugin won't find it when I load that pdf in Firefox, but it does when I load it outside of Firefox. Either way, lets quote the FULL section, with special attention being paid in certain specific sentences.

Citizen Patrols
Many NW groups choose to use Citizen Patrols on foot or in vehicles to keep their community safe. Patrols may be effective for your group, but you should discuss it with your law enforcement liaison. Two or more individuals, often from the same family, patrol during designated tours of duty and may detect suspicious activity not noticed by stationary observers. Lost children, stranded motorists, stray dogs, damaged street signs or traffic signals, wandering cattle, and automobile accidents are often discovered by citizen patrols.
Patrol members should be trained by law enforcement. It should be emphasized to members that they do not possess police powers and they shall not carry weapons or pursue vehicles. They should also be cautioned to alert police or deputies when encountering strange activity. Members should never confront suspicious persons who could be armed and dangerous. Patrol members can be equipped for their duties. For example, flashlights or searchlights are necessary for night patrols. Many mobile patrols use cell phones or two-way radios to contact a citizen-manned base station, which in turn contacts law enforcement officials when necessary. Remember your partnerships and ask for donations from local businesses.

So, we're back to where we started. Mr. Zimmerman was NOT "on duty" thus the guidelines do not apply. Also, I'd like to point out that it says nothing about following a suspicious individual .. unless they're in a vehicle.

 

[Dr.Fessel]

Well the number 1 defense witness was on two high powered brain drugs at the time of the shooting. Not sure how much I would trust anything he says.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/george-zim...juries-trayvon/story?id=16353532#.T7Liwnpo9XZ


According to the report, prior to the shooting Zimmerman had been prescribed Adderall and Temazepam, medications that can cause side effects such as agitation and mood swings, but in fewer than 10 percent of patients.

Adderall

Dextroamphetamine and Amphetamine(dex troe am fet' a meen) (am fet' a meen)

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmedhealth/PMH0000166/

 

[Just K]

I totally agree. As far as her parents not trusting the Sanford PD, I thought she lived in Miami, went to school with Trayvon. After hearing of his murder, the same night she talked to him, she tells nobody about the alleged statements by Trayvon of (paraphrasing)"Somebody is watching me, I am not going to run away from him"?...she could not reach out to Tracy, Jhavaris, Sybrina, nobody? Her parents, seeing that she was hospitalized out of grief did not know about her conversation with TM? She was his "girlfriend" who spend hundreds of minutes on the phone with him.

I am not so much concerned about what she did or not do that evening and the next two weeks, but her statements were the basis for Crump thinking that Trayvon was "hunted down". This, I have a problem with. It speaks largely to the magnitude of her (lack of) character. Crump was able to spin her story into the narrative that turned this into the circus it is.

Yes Lynn. I do believe him to be innocent. At least until he is convicted of a crime related to this incident.

No one in the family knew Trayvon was dead until the next morning. She could not have even known that she was the last person to speak to TM. All she knew, that Monday morning and probably most of that day, was that TM's phone was going straight to Voice Mail and that any attempt to get a response from him had failed.

By the time she could have known that TM was dead, GZ was already cleared by LE and on to getting out of Dodge. He retreated his home, his neighborhood, his job, Sandford and probably the State of Florida before TM's GF even knew he had been shot and killed. It would be quite sometime before everyone put two & two together (had to get the phone records to be certain) that TM was on the phone with her less than one minute before he was DEAD.

 

[AJ Noiter]

Well the number 1 defense witness was on two high powered brain drugs at the time of the shooting. Not sure how much I would trust anything he says.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/george-zim...juries-trayvon/story?id=16353532#.T7Liwnpo9XZ


According to the report, prior to the shooting Zimmerman had been prescribed Adderall and Temazepam, medications that can cause side effects such as agitation and mood swings, but in fewer than 10 percent of patients.

Adderall

Dextroamphetamine and Amphetamine(dex troe am fet' a meen) (am fet' a meen)

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmedhealth/PMH0000166/

Two questions:
1) How much "prior" to the shooting? I was prescribed percocet when I had my wisdom teeth removed.... 7 years ago.
2) How long was the prescription for? My percocet was a single filling for 7 days.

 

[Just K]

Looks like the leaking of evidence has started.

Matt Gutman ‏ @mattgutmanABC

@ABC exclusive: medical report from morning after Zimmerman shot #Trayvonmartin. Show he had broken nose, swollen face blck eyes. 2 cuts

https://twitter.com/#!/mattgutmanABC

From the morning after...for all we know his wife beat the living daylights out of him before he took off and then took his anger out on TM or when he returned from the police station. For that matter RG, Sr might have whacked his wayward son, out of frustration, after leaving the police station or to give him something to get treated for... just in case this came back to bite GZ in the behind.

For all we know, GZ was under the influence and slipped in the wet grass, hitting his head up against the dog poop depository and his head ricocheted off the ground causing his nose to hit the post. Then even more angry he proceeded to chase down the unarmed TM.

These medical records don't mean much. I want to see a comparison to the EMT records/Incident Report. GZ declined transport to a hospital or emergency medical facility. Coming the next day, really is not going to work in his favor unless the EMTs corroborate the report from the following day.

 

[AJ Noiter]

From the morning after...for all we know his wife beat the living daylights out of him before he took off and then took his anger out on TM or when he returned from the police station. For that matter RG, Sr might have whacked his wayward son, out of frustration, after leaving the police station or to give him something to get treated for... just in case this came back to bite GZ in the behind.

For all we know, GZ was under the influence and slipped in the wet grass, hitting his head up against the dog poop depository and his head ricocheted off the ground causing his nose to hit the post. Then even more angry he proceeded to chase down the unarmed TM.

These medical records don't mean much. I want to see a comparison to the EMT records/Incident Report. GZ declined transport to a hospital or emergency medical facility. Coming the next day, really is not going to work in his favor unless the EMTs corroborate the report from the following day.

Define "the day after" please. As far as I recall the investigators had him until "the day after" so he had no chance until "the day after" to go to the hospital. Relevance?

 

[suzihawk]

Could you tell me what page they're quoting from in the Neighborhood Watch Manual ?

Page 22:

Community members only serve as the extra "eyes and ears" of law enforcement. They should report their observations of suspicious activities to law enforcement; however, citizens should never try to take action on those observations. Trained law enforcement should be the only ones ever to take action based on observations of suspicious activities.

 

[Dr.Fessel]

Define "the day after" please. As far as I recall the investigators had him until "the day after" so he had no chance until "the day after" to go to the hospital. Relevance?

There was nothing stopping him from going to the hospital.

 

[Just K]

There was nothing stopping him from going to the hospital.

He was on his way home by monday morning. He could have gone directly to the doctor or an emergency facility. In addition, if he did not go until Tuesday then I would be even more suspicious as to when and how he brke his nose.

 

[tpgks]

From the morning after...for all we know his wife beat the living daylights out of him before he took off and then took his anger out on TM or when he returned from the police station. For that matter RG, Sr might have whacked his wayward son, out of frustration, after leaving the police station or to give him something to get treated for... just in case this came back to bite GZ in the behind.

Or the much more believable story of the eyewitness who saw Trayvon on top of GZ punching him. Do you think it was Trayvon screaming while George was punching his knuckles?

They call it "ground and pound" in UFC fighting, where one person, even if they are lighter, uses the leverage of being on top of another sitting on their chest punching them in the face. This is the scenario that I believe was similar to the fight that evening.

 

[Just K]

Or the much more believable story of the eyewitness who saw Trayvon on top of GZ punching him. Do you think it was Trayvon screaming while George was punching his knuckles?

They call it "ground and pound" in UFC fighting, where one person, even if they are lighter, uses the leverage of being on top of another sitting on their chest punching them in the face. This is the scenario that I believe was similar to the fight that evening.

Before everyone jumps on the fact that autopsy shows injuries to TM's knuckles, keep in mind that he had every right to fight off his attacker and that these injuries can just as easily be defined as defensive wounds.

 

[suzihawk]

Or the much more believable story of the eyewitness who saw Trayvon on top of GZ punching him. Do you think it was Trayvon screaming while George was punching his knuckles?

They call it "ground and pound" in UFC fighting, where one person, even if they are lighter, uses the leverage of being on top of another sitting on their chest punching them in the face. This is the scenario that I believe was similar to the fight that evening.

I think Trayvon was screaming for mercy and in terror as a gun was being shoved in his gut. I hope he got in some good defensive licks before he was shot dead.

 

[AJ Noiter]

There was nothing stopping him from going to the hospital.

You're absolutely right. Now lets imagine what Mr. Crump and "Crump's Crew" would have done if Mr. Zimmerman had said "Can you ask me these questions later? I really want to go to the hospital." If you have doubt now just think of how much "proof" you'd have if this scenario played out!

 

[Just K]

Those of us who believe GZ hunted TM down like an animal also believe that if TM had a chance to fight off his attacker that he had every right to do so...he was fighting for his life but his knuckles were overpowered by a paranoid & drugged man with a semi-automatic handgun with hollow point bullets.

And, none of us has denied that Tm fought back. He had a right to do so.

If anything, this might go to proof that TM was hitting him as opposed to bashing GZ's head into the concrete. Unless he has concrete abrasions as opposed to bruising and swelling. Bruising & Swelling will go in favor of the defense. IMO.

 

[i.b.nora]

As reported by Associated Press — "Zimmerman was treated Feb. 27 at Altamonte Family Practice."

 

[AJ Noiter]

As reported by Associated Press — "Zimmerman was treated Feb. 27 at Altamonte Family Practice."

Ah, so it was actually the day after and not the day after the day after. Good to know that he did it the same day he was done being questioned.