GUILTY Australia - 3 dead after eating wild mushrooms, Leongatha, Victoria, Aug 2023 *Arrest* #17

[LadyL]

what happens to Erin's money and properties if she's convicted? does it go to pay her lawyer fees and then leftover goes to her children?

 

[AMJR]

Just coming back to the whole idea of EP presenting to hospital 'for fluids'.

As an ED nurse, there are a few things about this that don't make any sense to me. If someone is unwell enough to need fluids in ED, it's because they can't keep anything down at home. We don't rush to give fluids to someone just because they say they've had a bit of diarrhoea.

She claimed to hate hospitals and had a mistrust of medical professionals. So presumably she would only self present for fluids if she was really desperate. In which case she would clearly look unwell, and would not be rushing off to take care of minor matters at home. Anyone who's had severe gastro or food poisoning knows that by the time you get to the point of not keeping anything down and becoming significantly dehydrated, you basically feel like you're dying and don't want to do anything more than absolutely necessary (eg think of Ian and Heather camping out beside the bathrooms). This is not at all how she presented according to staff treating her (or on CCTV footage at the hospital).

So I'm perplexed as to why she presented to hospital in the first place. And then why she would leave so quickly. If she was that unwell, it would have made more sense to stay for a bag or two of fluids first ( they can be pushed through in an hour or two for someone who is actually dehydrated). She would have then felt much better and perhaps been in a position to sort out things at home if she really needed to.

If I had a patient present like this and then rush off without having any treatment, I would be puzzled and question the legitimacy of their symptoms. When you add in the concern about death cap ingestion, it makes even less sense and would certainly arouse some suspicion.

All obviously just my personal experience and IMO

It’s great to have this insight from an RN. I still remember vividly 20 years ago being severely dehydrated from a gastro virus for approximately the same length of time that EP claimed to have been unwell, and having to have 5 bags of fluid in the ED. Blood pressure reduced so low from the dehydration that I couldn’t walk without my legs giving out. I just wanted to lie there and die and was absolutely desperate for water. If her diarrhoea had been as extensive as she claimed, she would have looked and acted a lot sicker imo.

 

[Eloise]

what happens to Erin's money and properties if she's convicted? does it go to pay her lawyer fees and then leftover goes to her children?

I believe any debts are paid first (such as lawyers bills). Then when in prison, corrections controls your money (but its still yours)

https://www.corrections.vic.gov.au/being-in-prison/money

 

[TootsieFootsie]

When I go out I carry not only my handbag but a shopping tote that has my drink bottle, sunglasses, face masks, spare store shopping bag.
I also used to carry a spare jumper or jacket in the one bag and depending on what I bought on my trip the bag could end up quite heavy.

From an accident years ago horse riding, I ended up needing to go to a chiropractor regularly.
Back then I used to have lower back pain from carrying things.

My friend suggested I split the contents of the bag and even out the weight by carrying a bag in each hand.
It really helped, I didn't need the chiropractor anymore.

What I carry changes in winter, I sometimes need to go to places where you need to wear something warmer, like a parka inside. Some of my parkas are quite heavy.
There are times I need a third bag, It's all to even out the weight

I was thinking that maybe Erin Patterson had a bad back and didn't want to load herself up with everything in one bag.
One of Erins bags is likely for stuff for her kids to occupy themselves. iPads etc.
Another bag is likely for their jackets, parkas, drink bottles etc

Even if she didn't expect them to be there long, perhaps Erin knows from experience how in hospitals quite often you're there for hours

Like was said, hospitals can be quite cold.
Last time I was in emergency with a friend, it was summer and after a couple of hours I was wishing I had brought something a bit warmer with me. Being summer and hot I wasn't expecting it to be chilly in the hospital

 

[Kemug]

You and I agree that she deliberately planned a meal to harm her guests. It is my opinion that she planned to murder them. If she had only wanted to make them sick, then there are other options that are not deadly. Ipecac or Ex-Lax would make her guests sick without harming them. Using a deadly mushroom suggests that death was the desired outcome.

RSBM

This!!

 

[Susjay]

The ziplock bag she contained the powdered Death Caps in, maybe? I doubt she had them in a container. IMO

If she needed some DC in her system to make others convinced she too had same meal, and she still had some, she may have risked ingesting a minute amount? But I doubt it.

 

[Deleted member 363451]

RSBM

This!!

Regardless, even if she only intended to make them sick (which I don't believe), 3 people died and she should be charged accordingly.

 

[Monstradamus]

When I go out I carry not only my handbag but a shopping tote that has my drink bottle, sunglasses, face masks, spare store shopping bag.
I also used to carry a spare jumper or jacket in the one bag and depending on what I bought on my trip the bag could end up quite heavy.

From an accident years ago horse riding, I ended up needing to go to a chiropractor regularly.
Back then I used to have lower back pains from carrying things.

My friend suggested I split the contents of the bag and even out the weight by carrying a bag in each hand.
It really helped, I didn't need the chiropractor anymore.

What I carry changes in winter, I sometimes need to go to places where you need to wear something warmer, like a parka inside. Some of my parkas are quite heavy.
There are times I need a third bag, It's all to even out the weight

I was thinking that maybe Erin Patterson had a bad back and didn't want to load herself up with everything in one bag.
One of Erins bags is likely for stuff for her kids to occupy themselves. iPads etc.
Another bag is likely for their jackets, parkas, drink bottles etc

Even if she didn't expect them to be there long, perhaps Erin knows from experience how in hospitals quite often you're there for hours

Like was said, hospitals can be quite cold.
Last time I was in emergency with a friend, it was summer and after a couple of hours I was wishing I'd had brought something a bit warmer with me. Being summer and hot I wasn't expecting it to be chilly in the hospital

EP's children were at school at that stage, therefore didn't need a bag for them.

 

[Lisa4]

Maybe one of the bags was full of straws

 

[Jake18]

EP's children were at school at that stage, therefore didn't need a bag for them.

Exactly. She packed a duffel bag and a back pack for herself, to go somewhere she wasn’t intending to stay.

I think it’s strange. I appreciate that some people say they may need 2-3 full bags of stuff to even leave the house though

 

[Lisa4]

No doubt the other one was full of thoughtful care items for the others.

 

[Monstradamus]

Exactly. She packed a duffel bag and a back pack for herself, to go somewhere she wasn’t intending to stay.

I think it’s strange. I appreciate that some people say they may need 2-3 full bags of stuff to even leave the house though

Phone (A), toothbrush and a change of clothes. Maybe a book and reading glasses. IMO

 

[LadyL]

and there is definitely research to affirm your thinking - and not only that the longer they deliberate the "safer" the verdict (in hindsight)

what do you mean by 'safer'?

 

[TootsieFootsie]

Unsafe verdict - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Unsafe verdict​

In the context of a jury trial, the term unsafe verdict refers to a judicial finding that a jury's guilty verdict should be overturned.

Unsafe in this context means that the verdict or conviction was not based on reliable evidence and is likely to constitute a miscarriage of justice.

In most common law jurisdictions, people convicted at jury trial are allowed to have the evidence and transcript of their trial reviewed by an appellate court.

Verdicts can be found to be unsafe for either legal or factual reasons.

Unsafe verdicts by jurisdiction​

Australia​

Criminal appeals made on the ground that the jury's guilty verdict was unsafe and unsatisfactory have been some of the most controversial legal cases in Australia. Both the Lindy Chamberlain case, as well as the appeal that led to the acquittal of George Pell were appeals made on the unsafe verdict ground before the High Court.

Authoritative cases on the unsafe verdict ground in Australia include M v The Queen, and Pell v The Queen. The currently applied test is whether the guilty verdict was "open to the jury" to be satisfied of the accused's guilt beyond reasonable doubt
A finding of guilt by the jury will only be disturbed if the court makes a finding that the guilty verdict was not open to the jury.

 

[Scuffy35]

I recall it in the trial evidence in cross-examination. Nanette Rogers said it was just pastry. The full beef wellington (simons IMO) had been cut open, the meat removed, and only the pastry and duxelle was in the bin.

However, the lab noted they found death cap toxins in a beef sample, so I assumed it was a microscopic portion of beef, or a bit of her leftovers mixed in maybe. IMO

Do you have a reference for this. It seems very much at odds with the below testimonies:

Death cap toxin detected in beef Wellington leftovers​

By Judd Boaz​

Dr Gerostamoulos says that in one sample of mushroom paste, death cap toxin beta amanitin was detected.

Beta amanitin was also detected in one sample of meat.

A jug with brown liquid, appearing to be gravy, tested negative for toxins.

And this:

Analysis of samples 'can be challenging'

By Tim Callanan​

Mr Mandy is now showing images of toxicology results from the testing of the samples.

Each sample is labelled, such as "beef" or "pastry", but Dr Gerostamoulos agrees that there could be elements of other items in the contents. For example, the "beef" sample may contain small amounts of pastry.

There is also discussion of a "confidence threshold" for each sample. Mr Mandy asks whether that means there could be a smaller amount of that substance which does not reach the threshold.

Dr Gerostamoulos says "there may be" and explains that food analysis "can be challengi
ng."

Analysis of beef Wellington lunch leftovers probed in mushroom trial — as it happened

The triple murder trial of Erin Patterson continues from the Latrobe Valley Law Courts in Morwell. She's accused of killing three relatives who ate a meal she prepared which contained poisonous mushrooms. Follow the trial live.

www.abc.net.au

 

[Lisa4]

I sincerely hope I'm wrong and we do hear today, but I wont be surprised if we have to wait till midweek at earliest, even end of week.

My reasoning being, the jury’s likely going point by point—not just to be thorough, but because this is their one chance to speak freely. This thread alone has been on fire since day 1 of the trial with the few crumbs from the media… imagine the intensity of the conversations in that room from the people who have been present to watch and hear every word from every witness. I daresay they all have a lot they need to get off their chests!

 

[Deleted member 367982]

If the police didn't find phone A they should know what the telephone number of it was?
Surely Dr Matthew Sorell could have used his expertise on phone A even with EP's cover up attempts of SIM card swapping, throwing it away and factory resets.

 

[Ellery84]

If the police didn't find phone A they should know what the telephone number of it was?
Surely Dr Matthew Sorell could have used his expertise on phone A even with EP's cover up attempts of SIM card swapping, throwing it away and factory resets.

They know the telephone number of Phone A. IMO.

 

[Yh5r]

I sincerely hope I'm wrong and we do hear today, but I wont be surprised if we have to wait till midweek at earliest, even end of week.

My reasoning being, the jury’s likely going point by point—not just to be thorough, but because this is their one chance to speak freely. This thread alone has been on fire since day 1 of the trial with the few crumbs from the media… imagine the intensity of the conversations in that room from the people who have been present to watch and hear every word from every witness. I daresay they all have a lot they need to get off their chests!

I was so certain that we would have a verdict by Friday and was utterly surprised this didn't happen. Now that the jury had chosen to be sequestered over the weekend, I also believe they weren't close to finishing up on their deliberations by Saturday, otherwise they might have fast tracked and delivered the verdict then so they could have gone home by the end of the day. They are likely going through everything in great detail and slowly and I also believe it will take time and unlikely to hear back from them until mid week or later.

 

[Two SCents]

An extra jacket doesn’t require a backpack and a duffel bag. And isn’t generally needed in a heated hospital. If she wasn’t planning to stay, why bring two packed bags?

Hey Jake, Sorry to knit pick, I just want to pick up on your comment re EP having a backpack and a duffel bag and thinking she had two packed bags.

I can't find a source for 'duffel bag'. What is reported is a satchel and a backpack. The satchel is her crossbody handbag (which we see in photo images from August 2023). She actually only had a handbag and a backpack or daypack. That to me doesn't sound as though she had packed bags planning for an overnight stay.

'CCTV footage played to the jury shows Erin arriving there with a backpack and satchel bag.'

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'Erin is wearing a pink jumper, white pants, black sandals with a black handbag and black backpack. She is also wearing a face mask.'

Erin Patterson trial day seven – as it happened

This blog is now closed

www.theguardian.com