Wrongful Death Suit filed Nov. 13, 2013 in California

[inthedark14]

The clothes and panties were from teenagers. Big difference from a 32-year old woman's. IMO, there was nothing to indicate that Rebecca had been in the guest house that evening. [modsnip]

MOO

Well seeing as RZ was a tiny woman, I can see how clothing her size could be confusing with clothing of a teenager. RZ was very small and very fit, I imagine there are many teenagers who are actually larger than her size.

Also, teenagers are not tiny kids wearing sponge bob undies. Many teens shop for undergarments in the same places adults do.

ALWAYS MOO

 

[LuckyLucy2]

Well seeing as RZ was a tiny woman, I can see how clothing her size could be confusing with clothing of a teenager. RZ was very small and very fit, I imagine there are many teenagers who are actually larger than her size.

Also, teenagers are not tiny kids wearing sponge bob undies. Many teens shop for undergarments in the same places adults do.

ALWAYS MOO

However, not only could the items been nothing close to Rebecca's size, they also could have had Justin Bieber, One Direction, or other logos on them that said, "teenager". We just don't know, do we?

 

[inthedark14]

[modsnip]Luckily for Lucy, I don't work in an office. And I have read the article in its entirety.

I have provided links when I have stated something that needed a link. I think when someone is accusing someone of murder, and one of their main "facts" is that a knot only a boater would know was used, I think it is fair to ask how this person knows what the noose knot looked like , and to make that available to all.

Even if it were a boating type knot, which I sincerely doubt based on the arm and wrist knots, Rebecca herself was a boater, and Jonah's brother could have shown her how to tie off on past visits.

I also think Rebecca hugged Nina and asked her to hold the cell phone in order to pass off DNA. I believe Rebecca was trying to set up Dina, and her sister.

All My Opinion Only.

So you think RZ was planning that far ahead even though the "trigger" phone call from JS came in past midnight? :thinking:

Anyone who wants to post here can, and does. Seems like we are having a spirited debate around here and I thought that was what was wanted? :dunno:

ALWAYS MOO

 

[Serpico]

No. As I stated above, IMVHO they did not test the blood to ensure that it WAS menstrual blood. Gore stated to a reporter that they determined the blood was menstrual blood by "logical investigative work" not any type of lab tests. Just because there is blood on someone, does not mean it is menstrual. There was blood on RZ's body, including her hands and feet as well as blood in the house. Since they did not state they did any scientific testing of the blood, there is no way to prove that the blood was menstrual in origin.

I was looking back at my notes and the... just blood / menstrual blood wasn't such an easy answer without specific tests and we already know that the SDSO Forensic Lab didn't test everything. The evidence pattern set by Gore = supporting evidence on his suicide theory was kept,recorded and in more than a few instances fabricated whereas evidence and eyewitnesses were easily dismissed and not much follow through.
Based on this Suicide / Homicide evidence pattern by Gore then I would suspect the blood found on the shower floor and on her body was NOT TESTED. Here are my notes on the subject:
Questionifference between menstrual blood and regular blood.
Asnwer: Menstrual blood is a mixture of blood and uterine lining tissue which is not found in regular blood.

Question: What shows up in a urine test?
Answer: In the realm of forensic investigation, messenger RNA [mRNA] is a good source for specimen analysis, owing to
tissue-specific expression patterns for many transcripts. Thus, differentiation of bodily fluids collected at a crime scene is possible if the proper
target mRNA is identifiable and detectable using molecular methods. With the analysis of menstrual blood evidence, for example, the matrix metalloproteinase [ MMP] family of genes encodes proteins involved in extra cellular matrix breakdown during tissue remolding, and in particular MMP11 and MMP7 mRNA have proven useful for forensic blood analysis.

Vaginal epithelium and residual cells will usually be present in menstrual bloodstains, along with endometrial cells. Has anyone read Sheriff Gore or the brash ME Lucas ever mention this describing blood attributed to RZ?

 

[inthedark14]

However, not only could the items been nothing close to Rebecca's size, they also could have had Justin Bieber, One Direction, or other logos on them that said, "teenager". We just don't know, do we?

No, we don't. I hope the Z family does, but that is probably one of the items they've had to sue to have information on. <--This is speculation and IMO. This is another item that SDSO could have easily cleared up and chose not to.

ALWAYS MOO

 

[LuckyLucy2]

So you think RZ was planning that far ahead even though the "trigger" phone call from JS came in past midnight? :thinking:

Anyone who wants to post here can, and does. Seems like we are having a spirited debate around here and I thought that was what was wanted? :dunno:

ALWAYS MOO

I do think Rebecca was planning it - since Monday when Max did not die. I think her saying, "Dina is going to kill me", her boarding her dog, her sending her sister home, her hugging Nina and giving Nina her cell phone, the *advertiser censored* searches on her computer, her talking to her sister on the phone about future plans, the note she painted on the door, says to me she planned it all. And planned it to try and frame Dina and get revenge on Jonah for not marrying her. I think the phone call just said to her, "Do it now".

Spirited debate is fine with me, but I'm not sure all here would agree.

 

[IQuestion]

SERPICO....wow, wow, wow...you know your blood evidence. Bravo! The brilliance of WSleuthers contributors continues to shine. I support "good & independent" investigations....no matter where the evidence leads. But this has felt wrong, ALL WRONG by the 4th hour upon discovering RZ's body. Why, the 4th hour you ask??? Because I saw time stamped photos of police officers (Yes 2 officers!) standing on the balcony, looking down on Rebecca and time stamped photos of Pfingst crossing/entering a crime scene. (That wasn't Pfingst's job anymore...he is in private practice!) 'NUF SAID.
This has had "strange manipulations" written on it from day one. Ask yourself this question: How many police officers does it take to investigate a suicide? Well in Coronado, it apparently takes 27 police officers, a police captain, a sheriff, 4 plus detectives, 2 CPS investigators, 1 antiquated laboratoy, 1 brash coroner, 2 press conferences....oh yeah, and 13 hours to retrieve one deceased woman! Something just ain't right in Dodge........

 

[DeDee]

The menstrual blood and the panties having nothing to do with each other. The blood was tested, the panties were not and in my opinion, its because it was obvious they were not Rebecca's. MOO.

Several drops of blood were found at or near the door threshold of the hanging room. IMHO, those particular blood drops fell to the carpet as RZ was painting her innocuous message with black paint.

Also, IMMHO, RZ wore panties seldom, if ever. And I base that opinion from all of the sources I have read, studied and/or watched on video. IMMHO, there is not one thing wrong with not wearing panties if one chooses not to do so.

I believe also that they did not want the "blemish" of a murder in Coronado and this had some bearing on the case.

According to that statement, I assume they to be Dina, Nina and AS, who did not want to "blemish" the city with a murder. Therefore, instead they stripped RZ of her clothing, stuffed a shirt in her mouth, bound her body with rope, tossed her over the balcony nude so there would be a "blemish" of a suicide in Coronado because somehow that is better than a murder? Or was the above quoted statement meant to imply that the SDSO did not wish to "blemish" Coronado by declaring RZs death a murder because, somehow, declaring her death as a suicide was a better choice for LEO because a suicide is just not as tragic and detrimental to the community as a murder would be?

Coronado's reputation suffered and was tarnished as soon as Maxie required a 911 emergency call followed by his untimely death. JMO

I am so highly grateful to discover that cynic's red marks covering the back symbolize lividity and not a guesstimate on the number of abrasions on RZs back. Those gazillion of red marks representing RZs back in cynic's work were the only thing in this case that I could not reconcile. Thanks for clearing that up for me.

moo mho omho and all that jazz

 

[Betty P]

I&#8217;m still thinking about the new information regarding the tugboat hitch being used as the means of securing the ligature around Rebecca&#8217;s neck.
I found some interesting information on the usage and relative rarity of the knot/hitch.
It would be so natural for someone used to utilizing that hitch to tie-off to a ship or dock bollard to reflexively use it to wrap around any round object from overhead.
I suggest that that round object in this case could be a neck.

Bollard with a tugboat hitch:

The hitch produces at least three wraps around the neck and it would be an extremely unusual and awkward choice to self-administer for the purpose of suicide by hanging.
If Rebecca was so adept at knots why not use a hangman&#8217;s noose, or a simpler knot that could readily slip over the head?
I did a brief video using my CPR manikin to show the wraps around a neck.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2IzQ30W09fc&feature=youtu.be


The Towboat Hitch / Capstan Hitch is not in Chapman&#8217;s and is not well known even to mariners with many years of experience on the water. The Towboat Hitch / Capstan Hitch is a good to use if you need to tie your boat to a post or piling.
The Towboat Hitch / Capstan Hitch is also known as Lighterman&#8217;s Hitch or Backhanded Mooring Hitch.
http://captnmike.com/2011/03/23/towboat-hitch-capstan-hitch/

The tugboat hitch is probably the least well known knot we commonly use. We often use our winches to grind the boat into the dock, but leaving dock lines loaded around winches can damage the pawls in the winch if there is any surge. While moving dock lines to cleats once the boat is positioned has to be considered &#8220;best practice,&#8221; sometimes the line is so loaded we don&#8217;t want to take it off the winch. In this case, a tugboat hitch removes the load from the winch pawls
http://www.bethandevans.com/pdf/knots.pdf

There is something very appealing, however, about a knot that can simply be dropped into place with no fussy hitches, which gets stronger as more force is exerted, and yet which can be undone (or just eased) with a few &#64258;icks. Such a knot is the lighterman&#8217;s hitch (also known as the tugboat hitch).You can see the attraction for working men, such as lightermen and tug crews, who had to make fast and unfasten mooring lines all day long. The only real drawback is that the lighterman&#8217;s hitch will slip when tied with light or slippery lines. In which case, get some heftier rope!
http://books.google.com/books?id=Sn...de to Knots and Their Uses lighterman&f=false

The ability to disconnect the tow quickly in an emergency is an absolute necessity. One way to accomplish this is by securing the hawser with a form of tugboat hitch, which can be released under strain (Figure 4). And always keep a sturdy knife at the towing station &#8212; it&#8217;s an equally effective emergency release tactic. The towed vessel should also have an anchor ready to drop on short notice.
To disconnect from an open-water tow, gradually reduce speed and retrieve slack in the hawser. When the tow is finally cast off, both vessels should be nearly stopped; to guard against fouled propellers, they should remain so until all the towing gear is clear of the water.

Fig. 4 The tugboat hitch is included in every professional seaman's bag of tricks. The simple reason: It can be released under strain.
http://books.google.com/books?id=7M...GcQ6AEwCTgK#v=onepage&q=tugboat hitch&f=false

Cynic, thank you so much for the excellent demonstration and illustrations of the tugboat hitch knot. Seeing the demonstration on the CPR dummy shows just how difficult it would have been for someone to tie that knot around their own neck. It's far too complicated and arcane for most people to know and pretty much impossible to yourself.
I always wondered why the only photos of the crime scene publicly released were those that didn't show the noose, only the t-shirt covering it.

ETA: It also explains why everyone at SDSO went to such great lengths to explain how the complicated wrist and ankle knots were tied. They didn't want to call attention to the noose knot, as all three would be impossible to explain. Reading the autopsy the other day, I noticed the ME provided almost no detail about the noose knot and instead referred to SDSO's description. Does anyone recall SDSO ever going into any detail about the noose knot?

 

[LuckyLucy2]

Cynic, thank you so much for the excellent demonstration and illustrations of the tugboat hitch knot. Seeing the demonstration on the CPR dummy shows just how difficult it would have been for someone to tie that knot around their own neck. It's far too complicated and arcane for most people to know and pretty much impossible to yourself.
I always wondered why the only photos of the crime scene publicly released were those that didn't show the noose, only the t-shirt covering it.

ETA: It also explains why everyone at SDSO went to such great lengths to explain how the complicated wrist and ankle knots were tied. They didn't want to call attention to the noose knot, as all three would be impossible to explain. Reading the autopsy the other day, I noticed the ME provided almost no detail about the noose knot and instead referred to SDSO's description. Does anyone recall SDSO ever going into any detail about the noose knot?

IMHO, Rebecca first tied the noose, then put it over her head. That's the same way she did her wrists - tied the loops, the put her hands behind her back, and put it on - leaving the loose end in her hand.

SDSO did not go "to such great lengths to explain how the complicated wrist and ankle knots were tied." In fact, it is the opposite:

"How did she learn these complex knots?

We don&#8217;t believe she did. These knots were not as complex as they have been made out to be, which is what we discovered when we attempted to recreate the knots on Rebecca&#8217;s wrists. Simply stated, this is one of those questions which will most likely never be answered with any certainty."

http://www.sdsheriff.net/coronado/faq.html

 

[time]

"Dina is going to kill me" and she did. I have never heard of anyone saying "X is going to kill me, so I might as well just kill myself" and then they commit suicide.

 

[LuckyLucy2]

But very easy to say that if you are planning on committing suicide and setting Dina up to make it look like she murdered you.

 

[coastal]

Is it any more preposterous than the statement I've read here that said "Nina only said Rebecca hugged her in order to have an alibi for DNA"???

Yes, it is.

 

[time]

But very easy to say that if you are planning on committing suicide and setting Dina up to make it look like she murdered you.

Ok, honestly, I have never heard of someone commit suicide and try to blame it on someone else except for insurance fraud.... namely, someone does not want to commit suicide and leave their children wife/husband with nothing so they try and fake a homicide. And, there are people who do fake their deaths and I believe many homicides are hidden as suicides or accidents. Why try to twist this all into Rebecca not only committed suicide, but tried to frame Dina for a homicide? I guess you are claiming it looks like a homicide and Dina looks like the murderer.

 

[inthedark14]

Is it any more preposterous than the statement I've read here that said "Nina only said Rebecca hugged her in order to have an alibi for DNA"???

I think that point was made regarding NR's lengthy interview and all of those interesting tidbits that she put out there.

RZ hugged her, she was weirded out by that but felt the need to include it, did she say it to be hurtful, or did she say it in case some stray hair or something was on RZ? Remember she just stood there all stiff and shocked, because the woman she was about to interrogate during the car ride hugged her.

NR was using RZ's cell phone at some point during the car ride, again, so odd to include that tidbit. We knew NR had a cell phone, we saw the printed from the internet bill she provided the reporter. Couldn't she have used her own device, instead of using the phone of the woman she thought was so bizarre and was already suspicious of? Really, the first thing I do with someone I don't like and am suspicious of is borrow their phone.

NR said that she looked at the gate, but didn't touch it, well as we have all been told so many times, no one's DNA was apparently in that house except for RZ's so of course, NR didn't touch the gate. Ok, got it.

NR spoke at length about how shocked she was that RZ didn't speak to her more, didn't tell her more. Well, perhaps that was because of the animosity RZ felt emanating from the woman. The animosity is quite clear in NR's recorded interview that was done some months later, I wonder how acute and frightening it must have been to be in the car with NR while she was demanding answers from RZ.

NR she spent the day being traumatized visiting poor MS. Here, I can actually empathize and emphatically state that she must have been exhausted and overwrought. How awful to have seen that poor little boy like that. Her heart I am sure was broken for her nephew and her sister. I am not discounting that in anyway. However, she decided to walk over to Spreckels, even though she had JS' car and talk to RZ when her text message wasn't answered promptly. Also there is the time discrepancy between her bill and RZ's.

So NR marched right over there to get the answers she wanted. She must have been in quite a state. While NR is looking through the gate and not touching it she notices the light on in the hanging room. It's that amazing how it all worked out?

In one two hour interview she was able to give all of this information that just proved that she couldn't have had a thing to do with it. How convenient.

There are more things to point out but while I'm not trying to be snarky, I do realize my sarcasm level has gone up.

Sorry, but the world's worst PR person couldn't have given such a tell-tale interview while trying to spin things in their favor.

ALWAYS MOO

 

[LuckyLucy2]

Ok, honestly, I have never heard of someone commit suicide and try to blame it on someone else except for insurance fraud.... namely, someone does not want to commit suicide and leave their children wife/husband with nothing so they try and fake a homicide. And, there are people who do fake their deaths and I believe many homicides are hidden as suicides or accidents. Why try to twist this all into Rebecca not only committed suicide, but tried to frame Dina for a homicide? I guess you are claiming it looks like a homicide and Dina looks like the murderer.

There are plenty of suicides that detectives believe were made to be murder. I'll be happy to add links, if you'd like.

I think Rebecca tried to make it look like Dina murdered her, but fingerprints and DNA and the fact that Dina was with Max all night (according to Ann Rule), defeated that plan. There is too much physical evidence outweighing the murder theory.

 

[inthedark14]

Well it's good to know that at the very least most people aren't going with exactly everything that SDSO has spoon fed them.

Off the top of my head I can't think of one thing I'm absolutely certain that they told the truth about and didn't squeeze and shove and conjure to fit into their theories regarding these two deaths.

If people want to believe some of it and not ask questions about glaring inconsistencies that that is fine too...because really, one of the people accused in the lawsuit vigorously questioned the ruling on MS' death. Before anyone bites my head off, I know that it was the Coronado Department that handled MS' death...but the two departments are linked and worked together and both deaths were addressed in the SDSO press conference. IMVHO if SDSO had better PR I'm sure they could have gotten through that PC without so many, many, many inconsistencies and discrepancies and not so many (but probably still some) would not be belaboring it today.

They could have also actually done their jobs and worked with the evidence and not with the theories they wanted to fit the scenes.

ALWAYS MOO

 

[LuckyLucy2]

I think that point was made regarding NR's lengthy interview and all of those interesting tidbits that she put out there.

RZ hugged her, she was weirded out by that but felt the need to include it, did she say it to be hurtful, or did she say it in case some stray hair or something was on RZ? Remember she just stood there all stiff and shocked, because the woman she was about to interrogate during the car ride hugged her.

NR was using RZ's cell phone at some point during the car ride, again, so odd to include that tidbit. We knew NR had a cell phone, we saw the printed from the internet bill she provided the reporter. Couldn't she have used her own device, instead of using the phone of the woman she thought was so bizarre and was already suspicious of? Really, the first thing I do with someone I don't like and am suspicious of is borrow their phone.

NR said that she looked at the gate, but didn't touch it, well as we have all been told so many times, no one's DNA was apparently in that house except for RZ's so of course, NR didn't touch the gate. Ok, got it.

NR spoke at length about how shocked she was that RZ didn't speak to her more, didn't tell her more. Well, perhaps that was because of the animosity RZ felt emanating from the woman. The animosity is quite clear in NR's recorded interview that was done some months later, I wonder how acute and frightening it must have been to be in the car with NR while she was demanding answers from RZ.

NR she spent the day being traumatized visiting poor MS. Here, I can actually empathize and emphatically state that she must have been exhausted and overwrought. How awful to have seen that poor little boy like that. Her heart I am sure was broken for her nephew and her sister. I am not discounting that in anyway. However, she decided to walk over to Spreckels, even though she had JS' car and talk to RZ when her text message wasn't answered promptly. Also there is the time discrepancy between her bill and RZ's.

So NR marched right over there to get the answers she wanted. She must have been in quite a state. While NR is looking through the gate and not touching it she notices the light on in the hanging room. It's that amazing how it all worked out?

In one two hour interview she was able to give all of this information that just proved that she couldn't have had a thing to do with it. How convenient.

There are more things to point out but while I'm not trying to be snarky, I do realize my sarcasm level has gone up.

Sorry, but the world's worst PR person couldn't have given such a tell-tale interview while trying to spin things in their favor.

ALWAYS MOO

Who wouldn't be weirded out if your sister's ex-husband's girlfriend, that you've only met once, and had been the person that was suppose to be watching Max when he fell, tried to give you a big bear hug? I certainly think that is odd.

You use the word "interrogate", I use the word "ask". Big difference. Walking 5 blocks in Coronado is not unusual. In many towns, people actually still walk.

Why do you assume she was "in a state". That state would be depressed and sad, IMO. Which is natural, given the circumstances. And it is also natural to want to know what happened to your nephew.

Did you ever consider that maybe, just maybe, Nina was telling the truth? I believe she was.

 

[inthedark14]

Who wouldn't be weirded out if your sister's ex-husband's girlfriend, that you've only met once, and had been the person that was suppose to be watching Max when he fell, tried to give you a big bear hug? I certainly think that is odd.

You use the word "interrogate", I use the word "ask". Big difference. Walking 5 blocks in Coronado is not unusual. In many towns, people actually still walk.

Why do you assume she was "in a state". That state would be depressed and sad, IMO. Which is natural, given the circumstances. And it is also natural to want to know what happened to your nephew.

Did you ever consider that maybe, just maybe, Nina was telling the truth? I believe she was.

Well I think it's odd that RZ would even be picking her up at the airport to begin with. I do wonder how that situation came about. :thinking:

I'm sure walking five blocks in Coronado is not unsual. Not for someone who lives there or is vacationing there anyway. It's not unusual where I live either. Although it would be unusual for someone who is so upset to do so, but that of course is MOO.

It's absolutely natural to want to know what happened to her nephew and when she didn't get what she wanted when she was in the car with RZ for sometime, didn't get a timely response to her text she went over there to confront RZ. Totally makes sense when someone is sad and depressed. <---that's my sarcasm again. You can use the word "ask" but she had already asked RZ and not received the answer she wanted, so she went to what, ask again?

I have considered that perhaps NR was telling the truth, but then I look at the timing of the interview, the subject matter and overall tone and I don't buy it. Sorry.

Agreeing to disagree again. eace:

ALWAYS MOO

 

[kittychi]

However, not only could the items been nothing close to Rebecca's size, they also could have had Justin Bieber, One Direction, or other logos on them that said, "teenager". We just don't know, do we?

...and why don't we know? We should know and the Zahau's should know.