Wrongful Death Suit filed Nov. 13, 2013 in California

DNA Solves
DNA Solves
DNA Solves
Status
Not open for further replies.
Well, her sisters have stated that it was not her time of the month.........they were close and discussed those sorts of things. Gore made this up to support his theory, IMO

Anyone with an IUD knows that spotting is common. Especially when you are stressed or upset.

I do find it interesting that Mary knew when Rebecca's time of the month was. And what types of knots she knew how to tie.
 
Anyone with an IUD knows that spotting is common. Especially when you are stressed or upset.

I do find it interesting that Mary knew when Rebecca's time of the month was. And what types of knots she knew how to tie.

My sister knows exactly when my time of the month is. I don't know if you have a sister or not, but even though my sis and I are polar opposites, we know way too much about each other's lives. It just happens that way...when you are close to a sibling. As for the knots RZ knew how to tie, I seriously doubt she knew anything about tugboat knots. I'll readily admit that she was far more athletic and fit than I am, even if I went sailing occasionally, I can't say I would have known what those knots were about. However, I am pretty sure that knots involved with sailing are not quite the same thing as knots involved with tugboat (ing).
 
And DNA data are ambiguous more often than is generally realised. Dr Dror thinks that in about 25% of cases, tiny samples or the mixing of material from more than one person can lead to such ambiguity. Moreover, such is DNA's reputation that, when faced with claims that the molecule puts a defendant in a place where a crime has been committed, that defendant will often agree to a plea-bargain he might otherwise not have accepted

So is that that reason why it was never tested properly? Because if there is no case for a plea bargain, there is no case for a CASE. Forward thinking????????
 
Regarding the fact that the menstrual blood was not tested:

Bill Gore: There was blood found on Rebecca body which was determined to be menstrual blood, there was also blood spotting on the floor - on the carpet, and a small spot in the shower.
Again, we determined that was her blood because it was on her body and it was menstrual blood, to take every little piece and look at the shower blood, we just don’t do that.
David Gotfredson/CBS8: There was no DNA analysis done on that?
Bill Gore: We have every reason to believe since there was blood on her, and it was her blood, there was spotting on the carpet and it was examined, the spots on the carpet - that was her DNA, the shower – that was not examined.
David Gotfredson/CBS8: How is it that in
David Gotfredson/CBS8: How is it that in the shower, the blood was determined to be menstrual blood from Rebecca?
Bill Gore: Through logical investigative work.

So logical investigative work doesn't equate to scientific evidence. If it had, I am sure this would have been touted as a fact of science that doesn't lie. The blood was not tested to see if it was menstrual blood, it was tested however to determine that it belonged to RZ. So they proved it was her blood, that she bled at the scene of a violent death but didn't bother to test it to conclude that it was in fact menstrual blood. :thinking: :dunno:

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...sed-(in-unbiased-hands)&p=9848750#post9848750

ALWAYS MOO

Thank you, Inthedark14 for this piece of transcription. IMO it is typical of many statements made by SDSO.

BBM: These terms "determined to be," "we have every reason to believe," "through logical investigative work," along with "like-lies" and "probab-lies" have been prevalent in this "investigation."

IMO it has an appearance that there is something to hide and has the appearance of a cover-up. It seems to me that police would not even want the appearance of mis-handling a case. (Though Gore IMO has the hubris to believe he can successfully pull it off. So far he has.)

Police's first statement of "suspicious and violent" death should have had all of those investigators who were in the home for HOURS, gathering samples from everything including the panties found in the guest house trash. My suspicion is that the initial investigators probably DID do this. However within 3 days they were floating the "suicide" term and IMO the tests were either never performed or the samples were discarded intentionally.

IMO it has the appearance of racism also--her body under the sun for hours.

I am sorry if this offends Sherriff Gore, Mrs. Gore, Jan Caldwell or Jonah Shacknai, but I thought then and I still think that they know a whole lot more about this story and are determined for it never to come out. ETA: add Paul Pfingst and Howard Luber in the list of names above.

And it truly makes me sick.
 
CYNIC....Thanks a million for making the supreme effort to not only answer my questions, but also supply the history and reasoning of each explanation. Of course I had to read each part over 3 times, because I wanted make sure I fully understood every aspect. AND I UNDERSTOOD!! (If you were my college instructor, I might have tried taking a couple more chemistry classes.) I am just so impressed with your ability to take the confusing "nomenclature of scientific forensics" and break it down so that it can be shared on our forums.
1)I found it quite interesting "private labs" have better, more sophisticated testing equipment 2)Bias can be implied, even if the science is accurate (ie, any bit of data can be manipulated by how it is presented) 3)Outside labs "could have been used" or contracted for assistance by SDSO, but they were "itchy in their seats, adjusting their too-tight neckties, and clearing their throats" rather than provide concrete answers....As you stated, some feel threatened when their work is questioned/challenged. I believe every department gets better only when they do face challenges, meet/exceed required educational standards, purchase the latest equipment and operate separately and independent of outside influence IMO.....
Hey IQuestion,
Hey IQuestion,

Some background for my answers below:

"The majority of the DNA under Rebecca Zahau's fingernails was her own," said Grubb. "Various fingernails were tested as separate samples and one of them showed a DNA mixture but the level of DNA was so low that it was an un-interpretable mixture."
In addition to the fingernail sample, unidentified DNA also was recovered from the rope used in Zahau's alleged hanging; a large knife used to the cut the rope; the bed frame to which the rope was tied; a door knob on the balcony door; and a pair of black gloves found on a table in the mansion, Grubb said.
[SNIP]
Because the amount of mixed DNA recovered was so minuscule, San Diego County Sheriff Bill Gore said it was unnecessary to collect DNA samples from Zahau's boyfriend, Arizona tycoon Jonah Shacknai, or Jonah's ex-wife, Dina Shacknai.
http://www.760kfmb.com/story/160680...ne-some-evidence-not-tested?clienttype=mobile

Both the questions and the answers between the press and Grubb were not sufficiently detailed to give a clear picture of what the situation with the mixed DNA is.
A look at the actual lab reports would be nice, and in some cases the public is fortunate enough to be able to see those, but the only time I have seen lab reports has been from cases that have gone to trial. For example, I have the DNA lab reports from the Anthony, Zimmerman and Knox cases.

I can speculate a bit on what I think is going on in this case.
I believe that the DNA was tested using conventional/standard testing methods.
What is needed in this case, and I don’t think happened, is to have the DNA that was deemed “low-level” and or “uninterpretable” to be tested using more aggressive techniques, techniques usually employed only in private DNA labs and extremely rarely in law enforcement labs. (The New York City Office of Chief Medical Examiner Department of Forensic Biology is the only LE facility that I’m aware of.) http://www.nyc.gov/html/ocme/html/hss/hss_home.shtml

Trace DNA analysis which has many critics and detractors, (and I’m one of them,) does have a legitimate use as a tool in developing leads, its use in the court system, however, is where I believe EXTREME caution needs to be employed. (Its use in the court system in California received a legal setback as an appellate court ruled against it. The case was People of California v. Hector Espino)
If for example, LCN methods were employed on the difficult samples in the Zahau case and it was learned that one of the persons of interest as identified in the civil suit could not be ruled out of one or more of the DNA mixtures then it would certainly lend a great deal of validation to the theory of murder rather than suicide. It would, (or at least should) be the catalyst needed for further investigation.

I don’t know if further testing is possible by a private lab at this stage or whether the samples, because of their small size, were consumed completely by SDSO testing.
It should be noted that DNA mixture interpretation is notoriously and often nightmarishly difficult and does not make for a “good day at the office” for lab techs.
DNA mixture analysis falls more within the realm of art rather than science and mistakes are QUITE possible.
Regardless, given the evidence in this case supporting homicide, I believe that all available DNA methodology should have been employed to determine if some of the areas in the crime scene were contacted by people that should not have been there.


Yes, but an innocent explanation is also possible. It’s more important to see if certain persons of interest can be identified as potential donors to the mixture.


People could be ruled in or out as possible contributors to a given sample. Legally bordering on useless but, as I’ve said, valuable in developing leads, and the steering the investigation in the correct direction.


Impossible to answer without more details. Confirmation bias may have driven the analysis of complex DNA samples to a result consistent with the case context the analyst was given.

Here’s an excerpt from an interesting article on mixture analysis that most people find to be an eye-opener.
Dr Dror's and Dr Hampikian's experiment presented data from a real case to 17 DNA examiners working in an accredited government laboratory in North America. The case involved a gang rape in the state of Georgia, in which one of the rapists testified against three other suspects in exchange for a lighter sentence, as part of a plea bargain. All three denied involvement, but the two DNA examiners in the original case both found that they could not exclude one of the three from having been involved, based on an analysis of swabs taken from the victim.
As is almost always true in forensic-science laboratories, these examiners knew what the case was about. And their findings were crucial to the outcome because in Georgia, as in many other states, a plea bargain cannot be accepted without corroborating evidence. However, of the 17 examiners Dr Dror and Dr Hampikian approached—who, unlike the original two, knew nothing about the context of the crime—only one thought that the same suspect could not be excluded. Twelve others excluded him, and four abstained.
Though they cannot prove it, Dr Dror and Dr Hampikian suspect the difference in contextual information given to the examiners was the cause of the different results. The original pair may have subliminally interpreted ambiguous information in a way helpful to the prosecution, even though they did not consciously realise what they were doing.
And DNA data are ambiguous more often than is generally realised. Dr Dror thinks that in about 25% of cases, tiny samples or the mixing of material from more than one person can lead to such ambiguity. Moreover, such is DNA's reputation that, when faced with claims that the molecule puts a defendant in a place where a crime has been committed, that defendant will often agree to a plea-bargain he might otherwise not have accepted.
This one example does not prove the existence of a systematic problem. But it does point to a sloppy approach to science. According to Norah Rudin, a forensic-DNA consultant in Mountain View, California, forensic scientists are beginning to accept that cognitive bias exists, but there is still a lot of resistance to the idea, because examiners take the criticism personally and feel they are being accused of doing bad science. According to Dr Rudin, the attitude that cognitive bias can somehow be willed away, by education, training or good intentions, is still pervasive.
http://www.economist.com/node/21543121
 
The quote in my above post is Cynic's. :)

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk
 
Anyone with an IUD knows that spotting is common. Especially when you are stressed or upset.

I do find it interesting that Mary knew when Rebecca's time of the month was. And what types of knots she knew how to tie.

Spotting blood and menstrual blood have the same characteristics that differentiate them from blood found elsewhere. It's a commonly used forensic test geared towards "crime scenes" and determining what kind of blood is found. I gave the name of the tests earlier,as well as an NIH link to a study verifying this. The test is very inexpensive too.
 
So is that that reason why it was never tested properly? Because if there is no case for a plea bargain, there is no case for a CASE. Forward thinking????????
I wouldn’t discount any sinister reason - as well it could be that they were simply testing and “investigating” only as much as needed to support their theory of suicide.
 
I’m still thinking about the new information regarding the tugboat hitch being used as the means of securing the ligature around Rebecca’s neck.
I found some interesting information on the usage and relative rarity of the knot/hitch.
It would be so natural for someone used to utilizing that hitch to tie-off to a ship or dock bollard to reflexively use it to wrap around any round object from overhead.
I suggest that that round object in this case could be a neck.

Bollard with a tugboat hitch:
25rmres.jpg


The hitch produces at least three wraps around the neck and it would be an extremely unusual and awkward choice to self-administer for the purpose of suicide by hanging.
If Rebecca was so adept at knots why not use a hangman’s noose, or a simpler knot that could readily slip over the head?
I did a brief video using my CPR manikin to show the wraps around a neck.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2IzQ30W09fc&feature=youtu.be


The Towboat Hitch / Capstan Hitch is not in Chapman’s and is not well known even to mariners with many years of experience on the water. The Towboat Hitch / Capstan Hitch is a good to use if you need to tie your boat to a post or piling.
The Towboat Hitch / Capstan Hitch is also known as Lighterman’s Hitch or Backhanded Mooring Hitch.
http://captnmike.com/2011/03/23/towboat-hitch-capstan-hitch/

The tugboat hitch is probably the least well known knot we commonly use. We often use our winches to grind the boat into the dock, but leaving dock lines loaded around winches can damage the pawls in the winch if there is any surge. While moving dock lines to cleats once the boat is positioned has to be considered “best practice,” sometimes the line is so loaded we don’t want to take it off the winch. In this case, a tugboat hitch removes the load from the winch pawls
http://www.bethandevans.com/pdf/knots.pdf

There is something very appealing, however, about a knot that can simply be dropped into place with no fussy hitches, which gets stronger as more force is exerted, and yet which can be undone (or just eased) with a few flicks. Such a knot is the lighterman’s hitch (also known as the tugboat hitch).You can see the attraction for working men, such as lightermen and tug crews, who had to make fast and unfasten mooring lines all day long. The only real drawback is that the lighterman’s hitch will slip when tied with light or slippery lines. In which case, get some heftier rope!
http://books.google.com/books?id=Sn...de to Knots and Their Uses lighterman&f=false

The ability to disconnect the tow quickly in an emergency is an absolute necessity. One way to accomplish this is by securing the hawser with a form of tugboat hitch, which can be released under strain (Figure 4). And always keep a sturdy knife at the towing station — it’s an equally effective emergency release tactic. The towed vessel should also have an anchor ready to drop on short notice.
To disconnect from an open-water tow, gradually reduce speed and retrieve slack in the hawser. When the tow is finally cast off, both vessels should be nearly stopped; to guard against fouled propellers, they should remain so until all the towing gear is clear of the water.

2hfrqsg.jpg

Fig. 4 The tugboat hitch is included in every professional seaman's bag of tricks. The simple reason: It can be released under strain.
http://books.google.com/books?id=7M...GcQ6AEwCTgK#v=onepage&q=tugboat hitch&f=false
 
I wouldn’t discount any sinister reason - as well it could be that they were simply testing and “investigating” only as much as needed to support their theory of suicide.

I believe also that they did not want the "blemish" of a murder in Coronado and this had some bearing on the case.
 
I wouldn’t discount any sinister reason - as well it could be that they were simply testing and “investigating” only as much as needed to support their theory of suicide.

That is also the reason that Dina stopped by Spreckels that morning.......to see how the suicide theory was taking hold. IMO.
 
I’m still thinking about the new information regarding the tugboat hitch being used as the means of securing the ligature around Rebecca’s neck.
I found some interesting information on the usage and relative rarity of the knot/hitch.
It would be so natural for someone used to utilizing that hitch to tie-off to a ship or dock bollard to reflexively use it to wrap around any round object from overhead.
I suggest that that round object in this case could be a neck.

Bollard with a tugboat hitch:
25rmres.jpg


The hitch produces at least three wraps around the neck and it would be an extremely unusual and awkward choice to self-administer for the purpose of suicide by hanging.
If Rebecca was so adept at knots why not use a hangman’s noose, or a simpler knot that could readily slip over the head?
I did a brief video using my CPR manikin to show the wraps around a neck.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2IzQ30W09fc&feature=youtu.be


The Towboat Hitch / Capstan Hitch is not in Chapman’s and is not well known even to mariners with many years of experience on the water. The Towboat Hitch / Capstan Hitch is a good to use if you need to tie your boat to a post or piling.
The Towboat Hitch / Capstan Hitch is also known as Lighterman’s Hitch or Backhanded Mooring Hitch.
http://captnmike.com/2011/03/23/towboat-hitch-capstan-hitch/

The tugboat hitch is probably the least well known knot we commonly use. We often use our winches to grind the boat into the dock, but leaving dock lines loaded around winches can damage the pawls in the winch if there is any surge. While moving dock lines to cleats once the boat is positioned has to be considered “best practice,” sometimes the line is so loaded we don’t want to take it off the winch. In this case, a tugboat hitch removes the load from the winch pawls
http://www.bethandevans.com/pdf/knots.pdf

There is something very appealing, however, about a knot that can simply be dropped into place with no fussy hitches, which gets stronger as more force is exerted, and yet which can be undone (or just eased) with a few flicks. Such a knot is the lighterman’s hitch (also known as the tugboat hitch).You can see the attraction for working men, such as lightermen and tug crews, who had to make fast and unfasten mooring lines all day long. The only real drawback is that the lighterman’s hitch will slip when tied with light or slippery lines. In which case, get some heftier rope!
http://books.google.com/books?id=Sn...de to Knots and Their Uses lighterman&f=false

The ability to disconnect the tow quickly in an emergency is an absolute necessity. One way to accomplish this is by securing the hawser with a form of tugboat hitch, which can be released under strain (Figure 4). And always keep a sturdy knife at the towing station — it’s an equally effective emergency release tactic. The towed vessel should also have an anchor ready to drop on short notice.
To disconnect from an open-water tow, gradually reduce speed and retrieve slack in the hawser. When the tow is finally cast off, both vessels should be nearly stopped; to guard against fouled propellers, they should remain so until all the towing gear is clear of the water.

2hfrqsg.jpg

Fig. 4 The tugboat hitch is included in every professional seaman's bag of tricks. The simple reason: It can be released under strain.
http://books.google.com/books?id=7M...GcQ6AEwCTgK#v=onepage&q=tugboat hitch&f=false
CYNIC....thank you for the perspective and uses of the lighterman's tugboat hitch. THE SMOKING GUN has been revealed, IMO.
A slightly off topic item I ran across: http://www.abc15.com/news/region-ph...ily-sues-dina-shacknai-over-mysterious-death-
(Hope the link works. If not, it was posted on ABC15 Arizona on August 1, 2014, for those who wish to find the article on their own.) But, the following statement in the article is pretty darned direct:
Dina Shacknai’s lawyer filed a response to the Zahau’s lawsuit saying if the Zahau’s think someone else strangled Zahau to death they can’t accuse Dina of the murder.
I found the attorney's response odd, because "if" the aforementioned individual provided the rope, with the intent of using it on the victim, aren't they a party of or to "a continuous felonious assault?"
 
CYNIC....thank you for the perspective and uses of the lighterman's tugboat hitch. THE SMOKING GUN has been revealed, IMO.
A slightly off topic item I ran across: http://www.abc15.com/news/region-ph...ily-sues-dina-shacknai-over-mysterious-death-
(Hope the link works. If not, it was posted on ABC15 Arizona on August 1, 2014, for those who wish to find the article on their own.) But, the following statement in the article is pretty darned direct:
Dina Shacknai’s lawyer filed a response to the Zahau’s lawsuit saying if the Zahau’s think someone else strangled Zahau to death they can’t accuse Dina of the murder.
I found the attorney's response odd, because "if" the aforementioned individual provided the rope, with the intent of using it on the victim, aren't they a party of or to "a continuous felonious assault?"

Wow, direct is right. That is quite a leap from the steadfast insistence of the Litter Community that it was suicide.

And the attorney wisely made no mention of the allegation that Rebecca harmed Max, which in some people's minds, IMO, justifies her desth.
 
Wow, direct is right. That is quite a leap from the steadfast insistence of the Litter Community that it was suicide.

And the attorney wisely made no mention of the allegation that Rebecca harmed Max, which in some people's minds, IMO, justifies her desth.

Wow, direct is right. That is quite a leap from the steadfast insistence of the Litter Community that it was suicide.

And the attorney wisely made no mention of the allegation that Rebecca harmed Max, which in some people's minds, IMO, justifies her desth.

Miss KITTYchi...You absolutely nailed it!! I had to wipe off my computer screen (coffee up my nose...ouch)...I kept reading it over and over, thinking...DID HE JUST SAY THAT? DID THAT ATTORNEY JUST SAY REBECCA WAS MURDERED...but you can't accuse my client of involvement!!

Sometimes I am awfully slow to grasp a concept, but now that you pointed it out....DS's attorney is attempting to "put distance between vengeance as motive for RZ's death
" I wonder how anyone can ignore the amount of hate and accusations made towards Rebecca, her minor sister and family....all of it implied years of disliking/anger towards RZ?
(Sometimes an attorney's worst adversary turns out to be the actions of his own client.) I believe the lawsuit is gaining traction and "the wheels are beginning to squeal."
 
Miss KITTYchi...You absolutely nailed it!! I had to wipe off my computer screen (coffee up my nose...ouch)...I kept reading it over and over, thinking...DID HE JUST SAY THAT? DID THAT ATTORNEY JUST SAY REBECCA WAS MURDERED...but you can't accuse my client of involvement!!

Sometimes I am awfully slow to grasp a concept, but now that you pointed it out....DS's attorney is attempting to "put distance between vengeance as motive for RZ's death
" I wonder how anyone can ignore the amount of hate and accusations made towards Rebecca, her minor sister and family....all of it implied years of disliking/anger towards RZ?
(Sometimes an attorney's worst adversary turns out to be the actions of his own client.) I believe the lawsuit is gaining traction and "the wheels are beginning to squeal."

As Mr. Spock has posted on P. 10 of this thread (BBM):

If your correct, then an investigation and depositions will certainly clear all three of them. Alibis and unanswered questions will be clarified. I can imagine they (Dina, Nina and Adam) must be very excited to clear their names this way. I've already expressed on here more than once I will gladly offer my sincerest condolences to Dina, Nina or Adam on here if it turns out they have hid nothing and are cleared of anything nefarious. If I was an innocent Dina and wanted to find out how my dead son "really" died, I'd be immensely grateful for this potential opportunity to blow these 2 cases wide open. Max and Rebecca deserve nothing less.
 
That is also the reason that Dina stopped by Spreckels that morning.......to see how the suicide theory was taking hold. IMO.

Dina did not stop by the mansion on the morning that Rebecca was found. However, if you can prove this with a link, please post. TIA.
 
"Bill Gore: There was blood found on Rebecca body which was determined to be menstrual blood, there was also blood spotting on the floor - on the carpet, and a small spot in the shower.
Again, we determined that was her blood because it was on her body and it was menstrual blood, to take every little piece and look at the shower blood, we just don’t do that."

When I read this, I believe the blood was tested and determined to be menstrual blood. MOO.
 
Cynic, how is it that you have seen the noose that Rebecca hung herself with? As far as I know, there are no photos available. If you have one, can you please post it? TIA
 
Miss KITTYchi...You absolutely nailed it!! I had to wipe off my computer screen (coffee up my nose...ouch)...I kept reading it over and over, thinking...DID HE JUST SAY THAT? DID THAT ATTORNEY JUST SAY REBECCA WAS MURDERED...but you can't accuse my client of involvement!!

Sometimes I am awfully slow to grasp a concept, but now that you pointed it out....DS's attorney is attempting to "put distance between vengeance as motive for RZ's death
" I wonder how anyone can ignore the amount of hate and accusations made towards Rebecca, her minor sister and family....all of it implied years of disliking/anger towards RZ?
(Sometimes an attorney's worst adversary turns out to be the actions of his own client.) I believe the lawsuit is gaining traction and "the wheels are beginning to squeal."


If you read Dina's lawyers response in its entirely, you will see that he is not attempting to put the blame on someone else for "choking Rebecca", but pointing out the absurdity of the accusations the Zahaus are charging in their complaint. IMO.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Staff online

Members online

Online statistics

Members online
152
Guests online
2,236
Total visitors
2,388

Forum statistics

Threads
601,882
Messages
18,131,319
Members
231,174
Latest member
Jmann420
Back
Top