Wrongful Death Suit filed Nov. 13, 2013 in California

[elfie]

DeDee, I believe the punctures on Rebecca's back are from the thorns on the two bushes under the balcony. IMO, she would have brushed those several times in a swinging motion. Both of those bushes have thorns that "seem to be paired and separated".

View attachment 56887

And yet, as has been pointed out numerous times, Rebecca had no similar markings on her arms which were tied behind her back. Likewise she had injuries in areas on her back that were covered up by her arms. The explanation defies logic and therefore cannot be true or considered a fact. Just another example of tailoring the explanations given by the ME to fit a preconceived conclusion of suicide that LE was promoting. Speaking of promotions, wasn't Lucas promoted not even 6 months after the presser?

 

[LuckyLucy2]

There seems to be so much mis-information still floating around. The menstrual blood was tested:

The blood drop was very small, and there was evidence Rebecca was experiencing menstrual bleeding, or “spotting,” at the time. Similar blood drops were found outside the door leading to the guest room where the incident occurred. Those samples were tested, and they were found to be from Rebecca.

http://www.sdsheriff.net/coronado/faq.html

If you take a shower and don't scrub the bottoms of your feet, they can still be dirty after the shower if you have been walking around barefoot. They would have also picked up dirt off the carpet while they were damp, and off the balcony. Notice most of the dirt is on the balls of her feet, which is how she would have hopped out to the railing.

And in these photos, there are not the hundreds of punctures that cynic's drawing shows. No offense, cynic, but I think it may be a bit off and the smalls wounds were much, much fewer - in fact, I don't see any in these photos except of the paired ones. IMO, her arms would not have been in the way as they would have moved quite a bit during the actual hanging. Cynic, I have included your image here, so we can compare the photos to your diagram. Perhaps you can explain the discrepancies from the photos to your drawing?

 

[inthedark14]

So the blood was tested and it was RZ's? Nothing there suggests it was tested to be sure that it was menstrual blood. only that it was RZ'S blood.

I wonder when RZ would have time to run around bare foot and get that much mud on her feet that day? Probably not when she was acting as chauffeur to the various Shacknai Romanos and Hubers.

 

[inthedark14]

Perhaps in the photos the scratches are not as apparent because of the lividity that is apparent on her back.

Because according to the ME she was hanging for some long hours and of course then the lividity would be in her legs.

Which of course makes one question the report once again.

ALWAYS MOO

 

[LuckyLucy2]

Blood is blood. Menstrual or otherwise. Do you think it was someone else's menstrual blood? I don't see that. And dirty feet are an everyday thing when you live by the beach. I don't see "mud", I see dirty feet indicative of wearing sandals or walking barefoot. Since Rebecca was lying on her back from early morning to evening, that is where the lividity would be, not in her legs, when the ME examined her.

MPOO

 

[inthedark14]

Well in a case as high profile as this a test to prove it was menstrual blood would have helped their case and dispelled many questions.

While Spreckels is on the beach RZ was not at the beach that day. By all accounts she was running around the entirety of the day. I'm sure if they had bothered to get footage of the restaurant we would be able to see if RZ had been so disheveled that her feet would have been muddy.

Always MOO

 

[LuckyLucy2]

Have you seen all the lab reports? How do you know they didn't note it was menstrual blood?

And you don't need to be "disheveled" to have dirty feet - just walking barefoot will do it. Perhaps she and her sister went for a quick walk on the beach before she took her to the airport that day? Perhaps she walked over to the beach after she and Adam got home. I would have been more inclined to to believe it wasn't suicide if her feet weren't dirty!

 

[Linda7NJ]

This case just gnaws at me.

I don't believe in coincidences and I don't believe in two ridiculously implausible stunt like death scenes.

IMO
Nothing about it makes sense to me. The entire scenario stinks...and it's not the sea air.

 

[Mr Spock]

Blood is blood. Menstrual or otherwise. Do you think it was someone else's menstrual blood? I don't see that. And dirty feet are an everyday thing when you live by the beach. I don't see "mud", I see dirty feet indicative of wearing sandals or walking barefoot. Since Rebecca was lying on her back from early morning to evening, that is where the lividity would be, not in her legs, when the ME examined her.

MPOO

Menstrual blood is different from blood found in other parts of the body. There are tests for it. At the end of my post here is a link to info posted by the National Institutes of Health if your interested. The blood found on Rebecca, as well as the blood in the shower/ house should have been tested to see if the blood in question was in fact menstrual blood. My guess is that a lab has offered to do this testing at no charge to the Zahaus if SDSO is forced to turn it over. If the SDSO are so sure it's menstrual blood what harm could possibly come from a simple verification? It would only help support their suicide scenario. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17544238

 

[IQuestion]

Hi CYNIC If a person fended off multiple attackers, would scrapings under the fingernails yield "MIXED DNA"??? Would a closer forensic study be able to separate out each?
Or, would the person testing, be dumbfounded/dismiss the findings because they assumed there was only one assailant? Since DNA has a half life of over 500 yrs....wouldn't the samples still be able to be tested?
AND I wanted to respond to a post about "sexual proclivity" but the post disappeared....was it erased by the moderator? (I realize our wonderful moderator is overwhelmed with some of the cases that have been hitting the boards.) If so, I will not pursue my question.....the fact that it has been erased, pretty much answers my question and source.

 

[MyBelle]

Have you seen all the lab reports? How do you know they didn't note it was menstrual blood?

And you don't need to be "disheveled" to have dirty feet - just walking barefoot will do it. Perhaps she and her sister went for a quick walk on the beach before she took her to the airport that day? Perhaps she walked over to the beach after she and Adam got home. I would have been more inclined to to believe it wasn't suicide if her feet weren't dirty!

ITA.

I think you are correct and there seems to be an outcry about what wasn't done rather than what was done. ITA menstrual blood has the same DNA characteristics as the rest of a person's blood. I sure don't profess to have such a clean house that nobody's bare feet will pick up dirt. The family lived at the beach, had a dog, in a place that embraced the outdoors, several active children in and out and it would be a never ending battle to keep a place so clean that dirt would be absent. But the presence of dirt or scratches or anything else does not point to homicide any more than it points to suicide or accident. It is irrelevant. State of mind was relevant and we don't know the details. I believe that is in respect to RZ's privacy.

JMO

 

[bourne]

Have you seen all the lab reports? How do you know they didn't note it was menstrual blood?

And you don't need to be "disheveled" to have dirty feet - just walking barefoot will do it. Perhaps she and her sister went for a quick walk on the beach before she took her to the airport that day? Perhaps she walked over to the beach after she and Adam got home. I would have been more inclined to to believe it wasn't suicide if her feet weren't dirty!

No. Have you seen the pics of her dirty mud-caked feet? It's not just a few specks of dust that you get from walking barefoot around the house.

And according to SDSO, Rebecca had just "showered" right before she killed herself.

So why would her feet be caked in mud (not specks of house dust/dirt)? The only way she could have gotten the mud underneath her foot and into her nail beds is if she had walked/run or was forced to walk/run about in mud right before her death. The only mud in the Spreckels mansion is outside in the courtyard. The logical conclusion is that she got caked mud in her feet from the courtyard while walking/running through it. The real question is why was she walking/running through courtyard?

Dina was seen by eyewitnesses at the Spreckels mansion around 11pm Tuesday 7/12/2011. Her sister Nina admitted to being at the mansion around that time as well. What is the logical conclusion? Both sisters were at the Spreckels mansion confronting Rebecca about Max's accident. [modsnip]That's the only thing that makes sense and corresponds precisely with the physical evidence including Nina's own testimony and laws of nature and physics.

 

[kittychi]

There seems to be so much mis-information still floating around. The menstrual blood was tested:

The blood drop was very small, and there was evidence Rebecca was experiencing menstrual bleeding, or “spotting,” at the time. Similar blood drops were found outside the door leading to the guest room where the incident occurred. Those samples were tested, and they were found to be from Rebecca.

http://www.sdsheriff.net/coronado/faq.html

If you take a shower and don't scrub the bottoms of your feet, they can still be dirty after the shower if you have been walking around barefoot. They would have also picked up dirt off the carpet while they were damp, and off the balcony. Notice most of the dirt is on the balls of her feet, which is how she would have hopped out to the railing.

And in these photos, there are not the hundreds of punctures that cynic's drawing shows. No offense, cynic, but I think it may be a bit off and the smalls wounds were much, much fewer - in fact, I don't sepe any in these photos except of the paired ones. IMO, her arms would not have been in the way as they would have moved quite a bit during the actual hanging. Cynic, I have included your image here, so we can compare the photos to your diagram. Perhaps you can explain the discrepancies from the photos to your drawing?

View attachment 56936View attachment 56937

BBM1: Respectfully, it is not "mis-information." It is NO information.

BBM2: Not with fresh black dirt which IMO looks like a rich loam from the grounds.

BBM3: There is no dirt on the carpet. And there are no prints of the balls of Rebecca's feet on the balcony.

My point still is that there are NO FACTS supporting 1) where the dirt came from and 2) that she hopped to the railing. There are only guesses and suppositions.

 

[bourne]

ITA.

I think you are correct and there seems to be an outcry about what wasn't done rather than what was done. ITA menstrual blood has the same DNA characteristics as the rest of a person's blood. I sure don't profess to have such a clean house that nobody's bare feet will pick up dirt. The family lived at the beach, had a dog, in a place that embraced the outdoors, several active children in and out and it would be a never ending battle to keep a place so clean that dirt would be absent. But the presence of dirt or scratches or anything else does not point to homicide any more than it points to suicide or accident. It is irrelevant. State of mind was relevant and we don't know the details. I believe that is in respect to RZ's privacy.

JMO

DNA is the same in all cells except the haploids in egg or sperm, but the biochemical substances (cytokines, etc.) are different depending on where in the body it is used/originated from/found. So menstrual blood is indeed different from non-menstrual blood and there are obviously tests to differentiate the different types of blood.

 

[LuckyLucy2]

No. Have you seen the pics of her dirty mud-caked feet? It's not just a few specks of dust that you get from walking barefoot around the house.

And according to SDSO, Rebecca had just "showered" right before she killed herself.

So why would her feet be caked in mud (not specks of house dust/dirt)? The only way she could have gotten the mud underneath her foot and into her nail beds is if she had walked/run or was forced to walk/run about in mud right before her death. The only mud in the Spreckels mansion is outside in the courtyard. The logical conclusion is that she got caked mud in her feet from the courtyard while walking/running through it. The real question is why was she walking/running through courtyard?

Dina was seen by eyewitnesses at the Spreckels mansion around 11pm Tuesday 7/12/2011. Her sister Nina admitted to being at the mansion around that time as well. What is the logical conclusion? Both sisters were at the Spreckels mansion confronting Rebecca about Max's accident. Something godawful happened after and Rebecca was then hung and a fantastic extravagant crime scene was then staged by her psychotic murderers. That's the only thing that makes sense and corresponds precisely with the physical evidence including Nina's own testimony and laws of nature and physics.

Yes, I have seen pictures. Here is one:


I do not see "caked mud", just dirty feet. There is no "caked mud" IMO. And unless you really, really scrub the bottom of your feet in the shower, they don't get clean. IMO, her feet look consistent with beach living - dirt and whatever she would have picked up going outside to get the rope, knives, etc, and then going out on the balcony.

I do not share your "logical conclusion" about Dina and Nina. I think it is far more likely Rebecca herself was seen by the "eyewitness". The logical conclusion to me is that Rebecca killed herself. Please tell me why murderers would stage an " fantastic extravagant crime scene" - as a suicide that looks like murder? And according to the Zahaus lawsuit, this wasn't planned, but done "on the fly". Not logical and doesn't work.

 

[Mr Spock]

I tried to edit your post down to same some space but I share your puzzlement. It's one reason why I think the ME was wrong to rule it a suicide rather than inconclusive. I believe it was a suicide but the details about it raise questions that haven't been answered.

The ME should have ruled both deaths inconclusive. There is evidence screaming to be looked at in both cases. I understand the Zahaus and Dina's rage. Why didn't Dina sue Jonah for wrongful death by way of child negligence?why didn't Dina sue the estate of Rebecca in order to dispose EZ and all others who were at the house 24 hrs before Max"s death. Jonah must have given her that house or paid her off not too.

And since we now know Gore was at Scanlons retirement we can assume they are friendly. Was it Gore behind the whole rude dismissal of Dina and her new evidence contradicting the police accident theory? Why did Gore and Scanlon treat Jonah to special treatment and an all access pass to both crime reports ? Yet barely give Dina the time of day? If anything they were rudely dismissive.

 

[time]

ITA.

I think you are correct and there seems to be an outcry about what wasn't done rather than what was done. ITA menstrual blood has the same DNA characteristics as the rest of a person's blood. I sure don't profess to have such a clean house that nobody's bare feet will pick up dirt. The family lived at the beach, had a dog, in a place that embraced the outdoors, several active children in and out and it would be a never ending battle to keep a place so clean that dirt would be absent. But the presence of dirt or scratches or anything else does not point to homicide any more than it points to suicide or accident. It is irrelevant. State of mind was relevant and we don't know the details. I believe that is in respect to RZ's privacy.

JMO

LE knew immediately that this was not a clear cut case of suicide. In fact, I believe as someone recently posted they thought it was a homicide. Why would they NOT do simple forensic tests that might provide further information like testing the dirt on Rebecca's feet, like testing the blood to see if it was menstrual or not. This is the same question as why did they not look at everyone's phone records for heaven's sake. If there are many small parallel markings on her back they came from somewhere and I don't think rose bushes and stuff are indicated here. I could go on, but I know you get my reasoning on this.

 

[Mr Spock]

DNA is the same in all cells except the haploids in egg or sperm, but the biochemical substances (cytokines, etc.) are different depending on where in the body it is used/originated from/found. So menstrual blood is indeed different from non-menstrual blood and there are obviously tests to differentiate the different types of blood.

I believe the test markers for menstrual blood differentiation are "MMP-7" and "MMP-11". They are very inexpensive tests .... A simple google search shows costs from as low as $50 to the couple hundred dollar range.

 

[Mr Spock]

Yes, I have seen pictures. Here is one:
View attachment 56968

I do not see "caked mud", just dirty feet. There is no "caked mud" IMO. And unless you really, really scrub the bottom of your feet in the shower, they don't get clean. IMO, her feet look consistent with beach living - dirt and whatever she would have picked up going outside to get the rope, knives, etc, and then going out on the balcony.

I do not share your "logical conclusion" about Dina and Nina. I think it is far more likely Rebecca herself was seen by the "eyewitness". The logical conclusion to me is that Rebecca killed herself. Please tell me why murderers would stage an " fantastic extravagant crime scene" - as a suicide that looks like murder? And according to the Zahaus lawsuit, this wasn't planned, but done "on the fly". Not logical and doesn't work.

ITA.

I think you are correct and there seems to be an outcry about what wasn't done rather than what was done. ITA menstrual blood has the same DNA characteristics as the rest of a person's blood. I sure don't profess to have such a clean house that nobody's bare feet will pick up dirt. The family lived at the beach, had a dog, in a place that embraced the outdoors, several active children in and out and it would be a never ending battle to keep a place so clean that dirt would be absent. But the presence of dirt or scratches or anything else does not point to homicide any more than it points to suicide or accident. It is irrelevant. State of mind was relevant and we don't know the details. I believe that is in respect to RZ's privacy.

JMO

If you view the crime scene photos from the hanging room, you will see white spotless carpeting with very fresh vacuum marks. There was no dirt on the carpet from dirty feet, which there should have been.

Testing of dirt, grass and plant material is a very popular specific forensic science these days. The dirt and sand from Coronado beach Rebecca would have on her feet would be different from the damp grassy area where some believe she ran into the courtyard being followed. It's standard practice to determine where all dirt, bugs and plants originated from on a suspicious dead body. There most certainly would have been microscopic transfer to the carpet in the hanging room if her feet were covered with sand and dirt from an earlier walk. It would be in her bed too if she went to sleep as SDSO states. No where do I recall reading there was dirt /plant/ insect testing done in the house or on the body. Did anyone ever bother to question why the hanging room carpet was freshly vacuumed and had NO dirt?

A massive amount of standard protocol and inexpensive testing simply was not done in Rebecca or Max's case. That's why Dina's best chance rt now is for the Zahaus to breathe new life and a fresh perspective into both Max and Rebecca's cases. They may end up being friends at the end of this if it ever gets solved and all questions answered with real science and a real investigation.

 

[Mr Spock]

I don't see a Judge allowing this case progress to the point of depositions. It's unfortunate that the medical examiner ruled RZ's death a suicide. If he had said it was inconclusive, I think they would at least have a chance to get at the truth but he pretty much closed the door for both families. I agree, Max and Rebecca deserve the truth and so do their families.

JMO

In a civil case the bar is much lower than criminal. Ie: why OJ couldn't get out of depositions in the civil case although being found not guilty in a criminal murder case. Judges prefer to allow plaintiffs limited depositions and discovery initially at the outset of wrongful death civil suits. After the initial process if "nothing" is found to warrant the case proceeding to court, the judge can rule from the bench and throw the whole thing out. BAM! Just like that. Dina, Nina and Adam's attorneys could ask the judge to force the Zahaus bear all their legal costs if this happens. If Dina, Nina and Adam are so innocent, hid nothing, and as are furiously mad at the Zahaus (as has been indicated), why not be excited at making the Zahaus "eat crow" at the end of all this. And have to pay Dina, Nina and Adam's legal fees?