Wrongful Death Suit filed Nov. 13, 2013 in California

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Yes, and in this CASE the answers are manufactured to support Gore's Suicide theory......brash ME Lucas saying the estimated time of death was 3:00 am [ before he said between 1-3 am] at the phony Spt.2,2011 Press Conference so it would "fit" Gore's timeline.
ME Lucas doesn't mention Time Of Death in his AR. Also,ME Lucas explaining the 4 deep hemorrhages on RZ's scalp....Ann Rule book page 251....Dr.Lucas's summation had attributed the 4 mystery red areas as something that had happened when Adam Shacknai cut her down. WHERE AND WHEN DID ADAM DESCRIBE HIS FLIGHT TO THE LAWN AFTER SUPPOSEDLY CUTTING RZ DOWN?

I've seen no proof that everyone in San Diego law enforcement or the ME's office manufactured anything. That's a pretty wild accusation. I know other cases where individuals have been found to have corrupted investigations by fabricating test results, for example, but I doubt an entire ME's office and Sheriff's office was in on some kind of conspiracy in this case.

JMO
 
The judge decides if depositions will proceed. Not us. We will find out soon enough. If Dina, Nina and Adam have nothing to hide they should be excited to clear up all the questions. I see nothing but this being positive for all three, if in fact they are as innocent as some people on here believe.
 
The judge decides if depositions will proceed. Not us. We will find out soon enough. If Dina, Nina and Adam have nothing to hide they should be excited to clear up all the questions. I see nothing but this being positive for all three, if in fact they are as innocent as some people on here believe.

The Judge will be granting motions long before it gets to the deposition stage, imo. I doubt the lawsuit ever gets to the deposition stage because the ME ruled it a suicide yet the plaintiff's aren't alleging the respondents were responsible for causing the suicide. The Plaintiffs refuse to acknowledge it was suicide. Big mistake on their part, strategically.

JMO
 
Dina and her attorney didn't accept Max's death was an accident. She was very critical of the police and their investigators. Are Dina's opinions, wants and needs somehow more deserving? Is she the entitled one? If Dina does not believe the police findings for the death of her son, why do you think the Zahau's and their attorney should accept Rebecca's death was a suicide? Depositions and discovery could possibly lead to a much needed re examination of Max's accident. This entire tragedy needs a fresh look.
 
Expert opinions don't always agree. Quite a few cases where a jury rejected Dr. Wecht's analysis. He's a highly paid consultant. Whether the jury accepts it or not, he's paid the same so I take it with a grain of salt.

JMO

Geez...who are you? The emphasis of my post wasn't so much Dr. Wecht but the question he raised ....why weren't there
numerous abrasion on her arms given they were tied behind her back ?
 
I've seen no proof that everyone in San Diego law enforcement or the ME's office manufactured anything. That's a pretty wild accusation. I know other cases where individuals have been found to have corrupted investigations by fabricating test results, for example, but I doubt an entire ME's office and Sheriff's office was in on some kind of conspiracy in this case.

JMO

I've only mentioned ME Lucas - Sheriff Gore - Greg Thompson - Paul Pfingst and until I read about the blood evidence tested at the Forensic Lab
I'll refrain from now that department. Please, in the future don't STRETCH my posts to fit your rebuttal. There is a predictable pattern on your posts....never discuss evidence/topic questions rather the ME,SDSO wouldn't do this and that. C'mon step up and join the discussion in a more
in-depth exchange.
 
Dina and her attorney didn't accept Max's death was an accident. She was very critical of the police and their investigators. Are Dina's opinions, wants and needs somehow more deserving? Is she the entitled one? If Dina does not believe the police findings for the death of her son, why do you think the Zahau's and their attorney should accept Rebecca's death was a suicide? Depositions and discovery could possibly lead to a much needed re examination of Max's accident. This entire tragedy needs a fresh look.

Where did I imply either family's wants, need or opinions were not deserving? I have deep sympathy for both families and expressed it here.

But just because a family doesn't agree with a ME's opinion doesn't mean they "deserve" to have him change his opinion. It isn't an entitlement. Dina must realize that because Dina isn't a party to the lawsuit against the Sheriff and ME offices and neither is Max's father so it has nothing to do with the Zahau's lawsuits at this point.

JMO
 
Geez...who are you? The emphasis of my post wasn't so much Dr. Wecht but the question he raised ....why weren't there
numerous abrasion on her arms given they were tied behind her back ?

I guess I don't understand your point. Dr. Wecht raised questions a half-century ago about the Warren Commission report on the Kennedy assassination. Just because Wecht has questions about something doesn't mean it is a valid question or that it requires an answer from anybody at all.

JMO
 
I've only mentioned ME Lucas - Sheriff Gore - Greg Thompson - Paul Pfingst and until I read about the blood evidence tested at the Forensic Lab
I'll refrain from now that department. Please, in the future don't STRETCH my posts to fit your rebuttal. There is a predictable pattern on your posts....never discuss evidence/topic questions rather the ME,SDSO wouldn't do this and that. C'mon step up and join the discussion in a more
in-depth exchange.

The family's lawsuit against Gore and Lucas makes clear it is in their official capacity as Sheriff and ME, not against them personally. The topic of this thread is the lawsuit that is now delayed because of the other lawsuit against the officials. I haven't stretched anything. I've tried to stick to facts.

JMO
 
The ME Lucas could've stated the numerous marks on back came from the bush but didn't....as Dr.Wecht said [ page 251 -Ann Rule book],"if
they came from her dangling on the rope and coming into contact with foliage, why weren't there similar abrasions to her arms, which were tied behind her back?
I raised the point with Dr. Wecht on a Websleuths Radio show (Nov. 20, 2011)
See @ 31:00 minutes
http://www.blogtalkradio.com/websleuths/2011/11/21/baby-lisa-irwin-rebecca-zahau-dr-cyril-wecht
 
Sometimes the answers aren't there to begin with. I think it is unrealistic to expect law enforcement officers to collect thorns for traces of blood. The marks on RZ's body did not kill her. I doubt police have checked the knife found with Robin Williams for blood.

In a suicide, nobody knows for sure exactly what happened. The idea that cops all are conspiring to work against families is unfair.
I think police do share much information with families but they can't force them to accept it.

JMO

BBM: That is the thing, though. They ruled it a suicide before investigating many of these "thorny" issues that we don't have answers to. Their first description was that she died a violent death.

How do you answer the question about the dirt caked on her feet since she just had a shower and there was no dirt on the carpet inside the house? The police never even said "that probably came from" or "likely from" etc. This has never been addressed either.
 

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For me it doesn't really matter which doctor said what...for me it's that there are no cuts on her arms or areas of her back where there are not cuts where her arms would have covered it. That's a fact and easily found her RZ's autopsy report.
 
BBM: That is the thing, though. They ruled it a suicide before investigating many of these "thorny" issues that we don't have answers to. Their first description was that she died a violent death.

How do you answer the question about the dirt caked on her feet since she just had a shower and there was no dirt on the carpet inside the house? The police never even said "that probably came from" or "likely from" etc. This has never been addressed either.

I think hanging is a violent death. So is suicide by gunshot or ramming your vehicle into a tree. The degree of violence doesn't indicate suicide, homicide or accident, though, which is why they investigate. I don't know that they conclusively proved RZ had just taken a shower or why that matters? Walking out of the shower and across a floor can dirty bare feet. I don't know what kind of housekeeper they had or when the floors were last cleaned. How could police possibly know the source of dirt or why they would waste time looking?

I'm still trying to figure out why some believe superficial scratches or dirty feet had any bearing at all on the ME's conclusion it was suicide. I doubt that it did because it is impossible to conclude, at least it is for me.

I think the ME went on to the information LE gathered about her state of mind.

JMO
 
Don't bicker and be disrespectful to each other in here. There are about 5 hopping cases right now and I don't have time to write pm's and issue warnings. I will just TO and ask questions later.

Give it a rest or take a break. Those are your choices.


Salem
 
My guess is that there are many, many questions regarding the report that the ME did.

The lack of scratches on her arms and the void of where her arms "should have been" on her back is a huge red flag. How could a plant have scratched her while she was hanging and not have scratched her arms or gone under her arms, missing them completely and only scratched her back while she was hanging? Superficial wounds or not, it is a very big red flag.

As for her not just dirty, but muddy feet...well the carpeting in the balcony room was very light. There were zero muddy or even dirty foot prints in that room. How would that happen? This is another huge red flag.

The ME did not test the blood on her body to prove it was menstrual blood. Another huge red flag. Her lividity is completely off kilter for someone who was hanging for hours after death. This is a MAJOR red flag.

The list does go on and on.

AFAIK, the ME's job is not to take their cue of cause of death from LE. ME's are duty bound to find the cause of the death by the state of the body.

I realize people will always have differing opinions on what happened to RZ and that is fine and discussion is good. If one wants to ignore blatant facts that are easily found (RZ Autopsy Report) than that is fine too, but I will continue to point these things out because they can be backed up by facts and links.

:peace:

ALWAYS MOO
 
I think hanging is a violent death. So is suicide by gunshot or ramming your vehicle into a tree. The degree of violence doesn't indicate suicide, homicide or accident, though, which is why they investigate. I don't know that they conclusively proved RZ had just taken a shower or why that matters? Walking out of the shower and across a floor can dirty bare feet. I don't know what kind of housekeeper they had or when the floors were last cleaned. How could police possibly know the source of dirt or why they would waste time looking?

I'm still trying to figure out why some believe superficial scratches or dirty feet had any bearing at all on the ME's conclusion it was suicide. I doubt that it did because it is impossible to conclude, at least it is for me.

I think the ME went on to the information LE gathered about her state of mind.

JMO

BBM1: I said "violent death" in my earlier post, but what was actually first stated by police was "suspicious and violent death."


BBM2: But those scratches and dirty feet WOULD have a bearing if the ME concluded that it was homicide.

Mary Zahau has said more than once that they would have accepted the suicide finding if they had answers to some of these key questions. I know if this were my loved one, I would want answers to those questions too. I think most people would. After the long investigation, SDSO should have no trouble answering these questions for this family whether it has bearing on the ME's conclusion or not.
 
Where did I imply either family's wants, need or opinions were not deserving? I have deep sympathy for both families and expressed it here.

But just because a family doesn't agree with a ME's opinion doesn't mean they "deserve" to have him change his opinion. It isn't an entitlement. Dina must realize that because Dina isn't a party to the lawsuit against the Sheriff and ME offices and neither is Max's father so it has nothing to do with the Zahau's lawsuits at this point.

JMO

Of course Max's father wouldn't sue the ME or Sheriff. Max's father wrote a letter ( which is posted on the SDSO website ) thanking LE for all their hard work on both deaths, and that he accepted the findings.
 
As the Daily Beast article by defense attorney, Roy Black, has been raised in support of the suicide theory of the case, I feel that the numerous errors within it should be underscored.
The DB article in full may be found here:
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articl...bysitter-rebecca-zahau-s-death-no-murder.html

Excerpts and my comments are below, (my italicized comments in blue.)

After nearly two months of intensive investigation by these four reputable law enforcement agencies, it was conclusively determined that Max’s death was an accident and Rebecca Zahau’s death was a suicide...

I’ll agree with the part about two months.

Once I drilled down to the actual facts, rather than opinions, I could clearly see how it all happened.

It would appear that Mr. Black is in a very elite group. Most people, even the most eminently qualified experts, on both sides wouldn’t claim to “clearly see how it all happened.”

Unfortunately not all of the commentators or experts have taken the time to actually read the reports, let alone analyze them, and the result has been a variety of half-baked theories and opinions despite the facts.

See my comment at the end of this post.

After two days of hopeful reports, Rebecca Zahau for the first time learned in a 12:50 a.m. voicemail message that Max was brain dead, on life support, and his death was inevitable.

We have only the uncorroborated word of Jonah that this is true. IF Nina and Dina are to be believed they offer a different timeline.
Nina claimed [during her November 7 New8 interview] they would never bring on additional grief to themselves, especially while Max was struggling for his life, saying nobody had any indication until Thursday, the day after Rebecca's death, that Max would not survive his injuries.
http://www.examiner.com/article/nina...w-max-shacknai
DINA SHACKNAI: I didn`t. I -- it happened on Friday, the first. He suffered from brain death and on Friday morning, approximately 6:30 in the morning, the EEG went flat and I thought something was wrong with the machine. [...] And it was soon clear that the doctors came in and said, you know, that he was brain dead.
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIP.../ddhln.01.html

The crime scene technicians collected 10 DNA samples: from the rope used to bind her hands and feet, the rope looped around her neck, the section of rope anchored to a footboard of the guestroom bed, and a small knife next to the bed which may have been used to cut the rope. All the DNA collected was Rebecca’s, and none was from any third party.

Not true
Sheriff's Crime Lab Director Michael Grubb did not dispute the presence of unidentifiable, mixed DNA at the Coronado scene.
[SNIP]
In addition to the fingernail sample, unidentified DNA also was recovered from the rope used in Zahau's alleged hanging; a large knife used to the cut the rope; the bed frame to which the rope was tied; a door knob on the balcony door; and a pair of black gloves found on a table in the mansion, Grubb said.
http://www.cbs8.com/story/16068012/mixed-dna-all-over-zahau-death-scene-some-evidence-not-tested

The technicians collected a significant number of fingerprints: from the guestroom door entry, the balcony door, the bed leg holding the rope, and from another knife discovered in the guestroom. All these prints were Rebecca’s and none were from a third party.

Proper precautions and staging to leave biological evidence and fingerprints from the victim could account for this.

The floor of the balcony holding the rope was very dirty and easily captured footprints. Only her footprints--other than a police officer’s boot--were found.

According to Godwin’s examination, there was ANOTHER set under the supposed officer’s footprints: “It appears to me that the officer stepped on top of another print based on this photograph. This indicates that a second person was on the balcony with Rebecca,” Dr. Godwin says.
The renowned expert has harsh criticism for the San Diego Sheriff’s Department’s handling of Rebecca’s investigation. “One of the major crime scene mistakes was to step on the balcony before completely photographing and videotaping it. Also, the police did not scale Rebecca’s prints with a tape measure. No doubt the police should have been wearing booties,” Dr. Godwin asserts.
http://radaronline.com/exclusives/2...prints-found-balcony-reveals-forensic-expert/

There was no evidence of a struggle, and she didn’t have any defensive wounds on her body.

No defensive wounds? Of the great many injuries and abrasions detailed in the autopsy report, Mr. Black cannot conceive any to be defensive in nature?

How could anyone do all this without leaving behind a scintilla of microscopic evidence?

There’s too much involved in a rebuttal here. It has been outlined at length in a number of posts in a number of threads. For a start he failed to consider the fact that mixed DNA was found.

We have to assume that if another person did this to her, she would have aggressively fought back

If she was surprised and outnumbered, rendered unconscious by blows to the head and then restrained, the fight could have been minimal.
Mr. Black completely fails to acknowledge the potential significance the head injuries to Rebecca.
"A blow or blows sufficient to produce subgaleal, subscalpular hemorrhage could be sufficient for someone to be knocked out, just temporarily, not to produce any damage to the brain, not to cause any prolonged unconsciousness; but one cannot say," Dr. Wecht said. "They are clearly indicia of some kind of blunt force trauma. So, for someone to say there is no evidence whatsoever of any kind of a struggle is not correct."
http://www.cbs8.com/story/15388199/autopsy-rebecca-zahau-found-gagged-with-t-shirt-in-mouth

They would have to have been wearing a full rubber suit or some type of space suit and levitated over the scene.

Speaking of levitation, that must be how Mr Black pictures Rebecca getting over the balcony railing because the evidence doesn’t support the SDSO lean and fall theory.

2z7eer9.jpg

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...oeprints-on-the-balcony&p=7277170#post7277170

…at 12:50 a.m., she hears the shocking news about Max’s worsening condition. Within two hours, in a fit of despair, she hangs herself.

Mr. Black states this with such confidence that you would think that he listened to the voicemail himself. The reality is that he is accepting hearsay as fact.

Video cameras at the hospital also showed Dina was there during that time period.

There nothing in the record that firmly places her at the hospital during the time in question.
Dina's alibi, according to SDSO was through "cell phone triangulation,” While that’s a great alibi for her cell phone it’s not a good alibi for Dina.
http://www.cbs8.com/story/16068012/mixed-dna-all-over-zahau-death-scene-some-evidence-not-tested

And Jonah’s brother, Adam, who discovered Rebecca’s body, was polygraphed and cleared as well.

Of all the mistakes in this mistake-laden article, this is the most obviously wrong.
The polygrapher that gave Adam Shacknai his lie detector test, tells RadarOnline.com exclusively, that the results of the test were inconclusive, and that he recommended to the San Diego Sheriff’s Department that another test be given.
http://webcache.googleusercontent.c...-lie-detector-test/+&cd=7&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=ca

Let’s see, what was it that Mr. Black said near the beginning of his article? Ah yes, “Unfortunately not all of the commentators or experts have taken the time to actually read the reports, let alone analyze them, and the result has been a variety of half-baked theories and opinions despite the facts.”
I guess the moral of the story/article for Roy Black is that people who live in glass houses shouldn’t throw stones.
 
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