Wrongful Death Suit filed Nov. 13, 2013 in California

DNA Solves
DNA Solves
DNA Solves
Status
Not open for further replies.
My apologies in advance if this hss alresdy been discussed.

For those who still think Becky's death was a suicide, whst do you think of the evidence that was newly revealed in the Zahau family's lawsuit:

1) The clothing that Becky had worn the day and evening of her death is missing.

2) The noose around Becky's neck was tied with a tugboat hitch knot - a rather complicated and uncommon knot that would be difficult for the average person to tie around their own neck.



TIA
 
In a civil case the bar is much lower than criminal. Ie: why OJ couldn't get out of depositions in the civil case although being found not guilty in a criminal murder case. Judges prefer to allow plaintiffs limited depositions and discovery initially at the outset of wrongful death civil suits. After the initial process if "nothing" is found to warrant the case proceeding to court, the judge can rule from the bench and throw the whole thing out. BAM! Just like that. Dina, Nina and Adam's attorneys could ask the judge to force the Zahaus bear all their legal costs if this happens. If Dina, Nina and Adam are so innocent, hid nothing, and as are furiously mad at the Zahaus (as has been indicated), why not be excited at making the Zahaus "eat crow" at the end of all this. And have to pay Dina, Nina and Adam's legal fees?

IMHO, this is exactly what will happen. I believe the Judge will throw it out of court, and the Zahaus will have to pay all legal costs for the Shacknais and Romanos.

I have seen nothing to indicate Dina, Nina, and Adam are "furiously mad", and to imply they would to be "excited at making the Zahaus eat crow", is simply your opinion.

That being said, I do feel for them that they have not really had time to mourn for little Max, since the Zahau's have been accusing them of murder since July 12, 2011. I hope they get the peace they deserve soon.
 
Yes, I have seen pictures. Here is one:
View attachment 56968



I do not share your "logical conclusion" about Dina and Nina. I think it is far more likely Rebecca herself was seen by the "eyewitness". The logical conclusion to me is that Rebecca killed herself. Please tell me why murderers would stage an " fantastic extravagant crime scene" - as a suicide that looks like murder? And according to the Zahaus lawsuit, this wasn't planned, but done "on the fly". Not logical and doesn't work.

Hi Lucky, nice to have you here and welcome. I was about a year late into this case so it took me awhile to catch up on all the details. Just to catch you up to speed, Nina herself told reporters and police that it was SHE the eyewitness saw outside the house late at night rt before Rebecca's death. She admits to pacing at the front door, then walking to the backyard gate to "look in".
 
Hi Lucky, nice to have you here and welcome. I was about a year late into this case so it took me awhile to catch up on all the details. Just to catch you up to speed, Nina herself told reporters and police that it was SHE the eyewitness saw outside the house late at night rt before Rebecca's death. She admits to pacing at the front door, then walking to the backyard gate to "look in".

Thank you, Mr. Spock. I know Nina was at the mansion that evening, but some here have said the "eyewitness" saw a woman with dark hair. That is the person I believe was Rebecca, if truly seen. IMO
 
IMHO, this is exactly what will happen. I believe the Judge will throw it out of court, and the Zahaus will have to pay all legal costs for the Shacknais and Romanos.

I have seen nothing to indicate Dina, Nina, and Adam are "furiously mad", and to imply they would to be "excited at making the Zahaus eat crow", is simply your opinion.

That being said, I do feel for them that they have not really had time to mourn for little Max, since the Zahau's have been accusing them of murder since July 12, 2011. I hope they get the peace they deserve soon.

I know your new here so your probably not up to speed to all the events and details. There are magazine articles Dina had written for her where she expresses a lot of rage at Rebecca. There are rambling letters from Dina to Chief Scanlon about how furious she is. In addition, on TV she accused Rebecca or her little sister of murdering Max. Dina even refused to be on stage with the Zahaus on the Dr Phill show she commissioned because she has such palpable animosity towards them. Dr Phil explained at the outset that Dina refused to be on stage with them! She lost her kid, her anger is understandable. She's been treated like **** by Gore and Scanlon, her outrage is understandable.

As far as what happens in court..... We have no idea. It's up the the judge, not us. All we can do is guess. That's it.
 
I know your new here so your probably not up to speed to all the events and details. There are magazine articles Dina had written for her where she expresses a lot of rage at Rebecca. There are rambling letters from Dina to Chief Scanlon about how furious she is. In addition, on TV she accused Rebecca or her little sister of murdering Max. Dina even refused to be on stage with the Zahaus on the Dr Phill show she commissioned because she has such palpable animosity towards them. Dr Phil explained at the outset that Dina refused to be on stage with them! She lost her kid, her anger is understandable. She's been treated like **** by Gore and Scanlon, her outrage is understandable.

As far as what happens in court..... We have no idea. It's up the the judge, not us. All we can do is guess. That's it.


I've been following this case closely from the beginning, have read every article written, and do not know of any article where Dina expresses "rage" at Rebecca. Do you have access to these "rambling letters"? If so, how? And can you post them here?

As I recall, it was the Zahaus who refused to be on stage with Dina. And in my opinion, it is very likely Rebecca and/or her sister had something to do with Max's accident, or at the very least, covered it what really happened.

I guess that it will be thrown out and the Zahaus will pay all court costs.
 
I've been following this case closely from the beginning, have read every article written, and do not know of any article where Dina expresses "rage" at Rebecca. Do you have access to these "rambling letters"? If so, how? And can you post them here?

As I recall, it was the Zahaus who refused to be on stage with Dina. And in my opinion, it is very likely Rebecca and/or her sister had something to do with Max's accident, or at the very least, covered it what really happened.

I guess that it will be thrown out and the Zahaus will pay all court costs.

The letter from Dina to Chief Scanlon is posted on her Max Shacknai website. It's several pages long and rambling. She was furious. And with good reason.

To suggest a mother in a raised voice on TV accusing 2 people of murdering her son, "is not furious", is a bit naive. I'm no expert, so maybe your right and she isn't angry or furious. She just comes across that way.

Remember I'm not your adversary on here, I'm one of the few people on the fence.

Let's hope a little discovery and depositions will clear things up and what actually happened becomes obvious.
 
Mr. Spock, do you mean MaxiesHouse.org? I looked and did not see any letters to Chief Scanion there. Could you give me a link?

I promise you I am not trying to be adversarial, I'm just stating my opinion - which isn't always popular around here! I am one that firmly believes Rebecca Zahau killed herself in response to Max's condition, and tried to make it look like Dina did it. That's one reason I also wonder if Max's fall was truly an accident.

Go forth, and prosper, Mr. Spock!
 
Mr. Spock, do you mean MaxiesHouse.org? I looked and did not see any letters to Chief Scanion there. Could you give me a link?

I promise you I am not trying to be adversarial, I'm just stating my opinion - which isn't always popular around here! I am one that firmly believes Rebecca Zahau killed herself in response to Max's condition, and tried to make it look like Dina did it. That's one reason I also wonder if Max's fall was truly an accident.

Go forth, and prosper, Mr. Spock!

It's on her www.maxshacknai.com (or .org) page in a PDF file. I downloaded it from my company internet connection when she first posted it. I'd provide a link but I don't go to that site. I saw too many people "outed" on LHK site that I'm afraid of being tracked or outed as an "enemy", although I have really gone out of my way to stay open minded and have compassion for all the victims here. That's why I stay on here only....I feel safe.
 
Mr. Spock, do you mean MaxiesHouse.org? I looked and did not see any letters to Chief Scanion there. Could you give me a link?

I promise you I am not trying to be adversarial, I'm just stating my opinion - which isn't always popular around here! I am one that firmly believes Rebecca Zahau killed herself in response to Max's condition, and tried to make it look like Dina did it. That's one reason I also wonder if Max's fall was truly an accident.

Go forth, and prosper, Mr. Spock!

Did you find it? Is it still up there? If not I can send a copy to Salem or InParadise to post it on here. Just let me know. I just re read it..... Heartbreaking.
 
Just found this newly updated information! It warms my heart to learn the Zahau family is still moving forward to get to the truth.

They don't want money. They want their daughter's name cleared! May this bring them the truth and peace.
 
I would find it hard to believe that there is a single person posting here that doesn't have empathy for what DS has gone through with the loss of her beautiful little boy. To endure something like that is the worst fear of every mother. Awhile back I was poking around the interwebz and came across of a video interview she gave after she spoke to the Coronado City Council. It wasn't MSM so I didn't post it here, and I'd have to look for it again. I can't for the life of me remember who filmed it. Regardless, it was absolutely heart wrenching. Her pain was so obviously visible and even with all my questions regarding the RZ case, I was choked up and felt so awful for her.

I can only speak for myself when I state that over the years since these two tragic deaths there has been a certain web presence that has been staunchly pro DS. This of course is their right and their prerogative. The very same can be said of the same people here who have posted for three years wanting to see this case reopened. When I was still firmly on the fence regarding this case, the comments and rhetoric that was nonstop and so hateful in cadence is what pushed me to where I sit now.

As far as I am concerned I wish that each family so dramatically affected by these two deaths could have all the answers they want so that they could go on with their lives. What I do see, is one family still trying to push to have the facts brought to light. I don't pretend to understand all of the legal wrangling that has gone on. The fact that DS had to sue to get the autopsy photos of poor MS speaks volumes. I realize that apparently that is par for course, but it's frightening to think that one has to go to such lengths to find out exactly what happened to their loved ones. RZ's family is now locked in a court case with SDSO trying to find out information as well. I can not for the life of me understand why public officials can with hold information and in RZ's case property of the deceased from their next of kin.

I guess what I am trying to say is that from the beginning, both deaths have been sketchy and off. The way the public officials have handled the situation has been sketchy and off. Which I suppose is why we are all still here talking about it. :sigh:

Justice for Rebecca and Max
ALWAYS MOO
 
I would find it hard to believe that there is a single person posting here that doesn't have empathy for what DS has gone through with the loss of her beautiful little boy. To endure something like that is the worst fear of every mother. Awhile back I was poking around the interwebz and came across of a video interview she gave after she spoke to the Coronado City Council. It wasn't MSM so I didn't post it here, and I'd have to look for it again. I can't for the life of me remember who filmed it. Regardless, it was absolutely heart wrenching. Her pain was so obviously visible and even with all my questions regarding the RZ case, I was choked up and felt so awful for her.

I can only speak for myself when I state that over the years since these two tragic deaths there has been a certain web presence that has been staunchly pro DS. This of course is their right and their prerogative. The very same can be said of the same people here who have posted for three years wanting to see this case reopened. When I was still firmly on the fence regarding this case, the comments and rhetoric that was nonstop and so hateful in cadence is what pushed me to where I sit now.

As far as I am concerned I wish that each family so dramatically affected by these two deaths could have all the answers they want so that they could go on with their lives. What I do see, is one family still trying to push to have the facts brought to light. I don't pretend to understand all of the legal wrangling that has gone on. The fact that DS had to sue to get the autopsy photos of poor MS speaks volumes. I realize that apparently that is par for course, but it's frightening to think that one has to go to such lengths to find out exactly what happened to their loved ones. RZ's family is now locked in a court case with SDSO trying to find out information as well. I can not for the life of me understand why public officials can with hold information and in RZ's case property of the deceased from their next of kin.

I guess what I am trying to say is that from the beginning, both deaths have been sketchy and off. The way the public officials have handled the situation has been sketchy and off. Which I suppose is why we are all still here talking about it. :sigh:

Justice for Rebecca and Max
ALWAYS MOO

So well said. My sentiments exactly. I pray the Zahau's are allowed discovery and the ability to conduct depositions. Both cases are tied so closely together that one can't be solved without the other. But I am on the fence leaning towards murder of Rebecca (65 percent of me whispers murder, 35 percent hopes suicide just so no more lives are destroyed. ) I believe Max's accident being a bit more confusing and convoluted than the public have been told so far.
 
Regarding the fact that the menstrual blood was not tested:

Bill Gore: There was blood found on Rebecca body which was determined to be menstrual blood, there was also blood spotting on the floor - on the carpet, and a small spot in the shower.
Again, we determined that was her blood because it was on her body and it was menstrual blood, to take every little piece and look at the shower blood, we just don’t do that.
David Gotfredson/CBS8: There was no DNA analysis done on that?
Bill Gore: We have every reason to believe since there was blood on her, and it was her blood, there was spotting on the carpet and it was examined, the spots on the carpet - that was her DNA, the shower – that was not examined.
David Gotfredson/CBS8: How is it that in
David Gotfredson/CBS8: How is it that in the shower, the blood was determined to be menstrual blood from Rebecca?
Bill Gore: Through logical investigative work.

So logical investigative work doesn't equate to scientific evidence. If it had, I am sure this would have been touted as a fact of science that doesn't lie. The blood was not tested to see if it was menstrual blood, it was tested however to determine that it belonged to RZ. So they proved it was her blood, that she bled at the scene of a violent death but didn't bother to test it to conclude that it was in fact menstrual blood. :thinking: :dunno:

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...sed-(in-unbiased-hands)&p=9848750#post9848750

ALWAYS MOO
 
Regarding the fact that the menstrual blood was not tested:

Bill Gore: There was blood found on Rebecca body which was determined to be menstrual blood, there was also blood spotting on the floor - on the carpet, and a small spot in the shower.
Again, we determined that was her blood because it was on her body and it was menstrual blood, to take every little piece and look at the shower blood, we just don’t do that.
David Gotfredson/CBS8: There was no DNA analysis done on that?
Bill Gore: We have every reason to believe since there was blood on her, and it was her blood, there was spotting on the carpet and it was examined, the spots on the carpet - that was her DNA, the shower – that was not examined.
David Gotfredson/CBS8: How is it that in
David Gotfredson/CBS8: How is it that in the shower, the blood was determined to be menstrual blood from Rebecca?
Bill Gore: Through logical investigative work.

So logical investigative work doesn't equate to scientific evidence. If it had, I am sure this would have been touted as a fact of science that doesn't lie. The blood was not tested to see if it was menstrual blood, it was tested however to determine that it belonged to RZ. So they proved it was her blood, that she bled at the scene of a violent death but didn't bother to test it to conclude that it was in fact menstrual blood. :thinking: :dunno:

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...sed-(in-unbiased-hands)&p=9848750#post9848750

ALWAYS MOO

Just my two cents and FWIW.....
It always bothered me that there was that much "menstrual blood" despite the fact that she had an IUD...
Yes, I know the facts about copper/hormonal IUDs...again, just something about this fact in this case that bothers me.
 
Perhaps in the photos the scratches are not as apparent because of the lividity that is apparent on her back.
Thanks for providing the core of the answer, Inthedark14.
I will add the fact that the knots are the focus of the picture, quite literally, and the area below suffers.
 
It's on her www.maxshacknai.com (or .org) page in a PDF file. I downloaded it from my company internet connection when she first posted it. I'd provide a link but I don't go to that site. I saw too many people "outed" on LHK site that I'm afraid of being tracked or outed as an "enemy", although I have really gone out of my way to stay open minded and have compassion for all the victims here. That's why I stay on here only....I feel safe.
I've added it as an attachment to this post.
 

Attachments

  • Dina_Shacknai_Response_To_COPD.pdf
    362.5 KB · Views: 17
Hey IQuestion,

Some background for my answers below:

"The majority of the DNA under Rebecca Zahau's fingernails was her own," said Grubb. "Various fingernails were tested as separate samples and one of them showed a DNA mixture but the level of DNA was so low that it was an un-interpretable mixture."
In addition to the fingernail sample, unidentified DNA also was recovered from the rope used in Zahau's alleged hanging; a large knife used to the cut the rope; the bed frame to which the rope was tied; a door knob on the balcony door; and a pair of black gloves found on a table in the mansion, Grubb said.
[SNIP]
Because the amount of mixed DNA recovered was so minuscule, San Diego County Sheriff Bill Gore said it was unnecessary to collect DNA samples from Zahau's boyfriend, Arizona tycoon Jonah Shacknai, or Jonah's ex-wife, Dina Shacknai.
http://www.760kfmb.com/story/160680...ne-some-evidence-not-tested?clienttype=mobile

Both the questions and the answers between the press and Grubb were not sufficiently detailed to give a clear picture of what the situation with the mixed DNA is.
A look at the actual lab reports would be nice, and in some cases the public is fortunate enough to be able to see those, but the only time I have seen lab reports has been from cases that have gone to trial. For example, I have the DNA lab reports from the Anthony, Zimmerman and Knox cases.

I can speculate a bit on what I think is going on in this case.
I believe that the DNA was tested using conventional/standard testing methods.
What is needed in this case, and I don’t think happened, is to have the DNA that was deemed “low-level” and or “uninterpretable” to be tested using more aggressive techniques, techniques usually employed only in private DNA labs and extremely rarely in law enforcement labs. (The New York City Office of Chief Medical Examiner Department of Forensic Biology is the only LE facility that I’m aware of.) http://www.nyc.gov/html/ocme/html/hss/hss_home.shtml

Trace DNA analysis which has many critics and detractors, (and I’m one of them,) does have a legitimate use as a tool in developing leads, its use in the court system, however, is where I believe EXTREME caution needs to be employed. (Its use in the court system in California received a legal setback as an appellate court ruled against it. The case was People of California v. Hector Espino)
If for example, LCN methods were employed on the difficult samples in the Zahau case and it was learned that one of the persons of interest as identified in the civil suit could not be ruled out of one or more of the DNA mixtures then it would certainly lend a great deal of validation to the theory of murder rather than suicide. It would, (or at least should) be the catalyst needed for further investigation.

I don’t know if further testing is possible by a private lab at this stage or whether the samples, because of their small size, were consumed completely by SDSO testing.
It should be noted that DNA mixture interpretation is notoriously and often nightmarishly difficult and does not make for a “good day at the office” for lab techs.
DNA mixture analysis falls more within the realm of art rather than science and mistakes are QUITE possible.
Regardless, given the evidence in this case supporting homicide, I believe that all available DNA methodology should have been employed to determine if some of the areas in the crime scene were contacted by people that should not have been there.

If a person fended off multiple attackers, would scrapings under the fingernails yield "MIXED DNA"???
Yes, but an innocent explanation is also possible. It’s more important to see if certain persons of interest can be identified as potential donors to the mixture.

Would a closer forensic study be able to separate out each?
People could be ruled in or out as possible contributors to a given sample. Legally bordering on useless but, as I’ve said, valuable in developing leads, and the steering the investigation in the correct direction.

Would the person testing, be dumbfounded/dismiss the findings because they assumed there was only one assailant?
Impossible to answer without more details. Confirmation bias may have driven the analysis of complex DNA samples to a result consistent with the case context the analyst was given.

Here’s an excerpt from an interesting article on mixture analysis that most people find to be an eye-opener.
Dr Dror's and Dr Hampikian's experiment presented data from a real case to 17 DNA examiners working in an accredited government laboratory in North America. The case involved a gang rape in the state of Georgia, in which one of the rapists testified against three other suspects in exchange for a lighter sentence, as part of a plea bargain. All three denied involvement, but the two DNA examiners in the original case both found that they could not exclude one of the three from having been involved, based on an analysis of swabs taken from the victim.
As is almost always true in forensic-science laboratories, these examiners knew what the case was about. And their findings were crucial to the outcome because in Georgia, as in many other states, a plea bargain cannot be accepted without corroborating evidence. However, of the 17 examiners Dr Dror and Dr Hampikian approached—who, unlike the original two, knew nothing about the context of the crime—only one thought that the same suspect could not be excluded. Twelve others excluded him, and four abstained.
Though they cannot prove it, Dr Dror and Dr Hampikian suspect the difference in contextual information given to the examiners was the cause of the different results. The original pair may have subliminally interpreted ambiguous information in a way helpful to the prosecution, even though they did not consciously realise what they were doing.
And DNA data are ambiguous more often than is generally realised. Dr Dror thinks that in about 25% of cases, tiny samples or the mixing of material from more than one person can lead to such ambiguity. Moreover, such is DNA's reputation that, when faced with claims that the molecule puts a defendant in a place where a crime has been committed, that defendant will often agree to a plea-bargain he might otherwise not have accepted.
This one example does not prove the existence of a systematic problem. But it does point to a sloppy approach to science. According to Norah Rudin, a forensic-DNA consultant in Mountain View, California, forensic scientists are beginning to accept that cognitive bias exists, but there is still a lot of resistance to the idea, because examiners take the criticism personally and feel they are being accused of doing bad science. According to Dr Rudin, the attitude that cognitive bias can somehow be willed away, by education, training or good intentions, is still pervasive.
http://www.economist.com/node/21543121
 
Thanks cynic for that very informative post. I've respectfully snipped this portion
Quote Originally Posted by IQuestion View Post
If a person fended off multiple attackers, would scrapings under the fingernails yield "MIXED DNA"??? <- IQuestion

-:>Cynic ->Yes, but an innocent explanation is also possible. It&#8217;s more important to see if certain persons of interest can be identified as potential donors to the mixture.

because it leads me to something that has always bothered me. RZ picked up NR from the airport that day. NR in her interview stated that RZ gave her an uncomfortable "bear hug" and that she was weirded out by that. In my mind I've always thought of this as just another callous comment thrown at RZ. (That particular unkindness has always really, really bugged me) Is it possible that NR was trying in her very roundabout and obviously lawyered up way to deflect any attention that would come from the fact that her DNA could be found on RZ's person?
 
Just my two cents and FWIW.....
It always bothered me that there was that much "menstrual blood" despite the fact that she had an IUD...
Yes, I know the facts about copper/hormonal IUDs...again, just something about this fact in this case that bothers me.
Well, her sisters have stated that it was not her time of the month.........they were close and discussed those sorts of things. Gore made this up to support his theory, IMO
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Members online

Online statistics

Members online
212
Guests online
1,259
Total visitors
1,471

Forum statistics

Threads
599,515
Messages
18,096,005
Members
230,868
Latest member
robbya
Back
Top