WV - Sodder Family - 5 children, Christmas eve 1945 - #3

[snowme]

Raf, it would be helpful. But I believe the actual photograph is no longer surviving. I think they only scanned the front of the photo. Granddaughter, can you please help with this? Is this photograph still around? If so is the back still intact? And I have a few questions I need to ask you Granddaughter some things just off the top of my head.

Ok. Mr. George Sodder wanted to get into those bedrooms so badly, and first the ladder was missing, than two cars wouldn't start. I think the plan was to drive the cars under the bedroom window of the kid's room and get in that way. But the cars wouldn't start. We also know that one of the girls I believe? Had run to a neighbor's home and had used the phone to call the fire dept. What I don't understand, is why George and say one of his sons didn't run to the neighbors and ask to borrow a ladder or a car to drive under that window. It's just something I was wondering about. Did the fire move too quickly for that? Or did they ask to borrow those things and were they denied the usage of them?

If they asked and were denied the usage of these items, that says a lot about the town they were living in and what people thought of the family, or perhaps they were made to promise not to allow him usage or perhaps they were scared because they were relativly sure they knew who did those things.

If the fire moved too fast, and by the time the cars wouldn't start and the ladder was missing they didn't have time to go to a neighbors I kind of get that... Or perhaps, they just didn't think of it. I dont know.

Great questions and line of thought, Laura. I have to admit I had not given thought to why Mr. Sodder didn't (or if he did) ask to use a neighbors ladder or vehicle! Maybe it was that it was in my head that the fire burned and consumed fast... but still, after reading you ask the question I felt dumb for never having the thought!

Mom has been working her way through the posts and is developing answers to the questions that have been presented. Some of the past posts asked about coal mines in the area where the children might have gone that night. There were no coal mines that were within walking distance, even for an adult on a nice day. It would have been an impossible distance for young children at midnight in freezing temperatures and deep snow.

This is so good to have an answer on. It was a point I think many of us kept pondering and keeping in the loop of consideration. For me, now, this is firmly out of the realm of possibility.

Concerning the photo of the young man believed to be Louis, the fact that the photo was mailed from Central City, Kentucky, does not necessarily mean that it originated there. My mom and dad went to Central City the following weekend after my grandparents received the photo. They drove though all the streets looking for a building with windows similar to those in the picture. They also stopped at some service stations and stores to ask whether the person in the photo was familiar to them. Their response was always "no." My parents couldn't find anything to tie the young man or the window in the background to Central City. Perhaps the letter was dropped in the mail by someone passing through the area, or by someone who did not want the postmark to be traced.

I don't think I knew before that the photo no longer existed or that you at least cannot put your hands on it. Was there ever a scan made of the back of the photo as well?

It's also good to know that your mom & dad went there and found no building that looked like the background building in the photo. I think many of us suspected that it was mailed from a neutral zip code.

Thank you Granddaughter and thank your mom as well!

 

[snowme]

In regards to the children being sent back to Italy.... Most if not all of Europe was torn apart at this time in history. There were people going in and out of countries without having proper documentation. IMO it would have been easy to get 5 kids into Italy without having the proper documentation. It would have also been easy to have fake paperwork made for the kids since most papers were destroyed due to the war.

Mel ~

Another idea I had not fully given thought to! (starting to feel ashamed and useless, lol. no point in me commenting if I'm not thinking, huh?!)

I know the date of the fire and disappearances and knew one older boy was not home due to the war, but it never occured to me to put it together with the fact that much of Europe was in chaos at the time.

I don't know if that would have made it easier to slip something past or harder??

I agree not...

raf, if I'm not mistaken I think you've commented before on the detailed process of coming into Italy at that time and it sounded as if it would have, indeed, been very difficult to come up with all the proper (or looking proper) documentation to bring 5 children into the country. And not only the proper paperwork at the time of entry but also it would be on-going? Follow-ups with doctors, schools, etc? Is that right?

 

[wv171]

I heard on radio many times today that channel 59 news going to have a special report on Sodder Case on Wed. 20, 2009 at 11:00 PM EST news show .. Yes I live in local area..

They say they going to show some unseen photos about the case .... They really playing up this news story as a Top Unsloved Local Crime..

59 news is very good at having Video on there site right after Air Time locally..

Here is there Web Link ... http://www.cbs59.com/

Hope this little bit helps .... I figure they be a lot on here that would love to watch that new update about this case..

 

[raf]

Another idea I had not fully given thought to! (starting to feel ashamed and useless, lol. no point in me commenting if I'm not thinking, huh?!)

I know the date of the fire and disappearances and knew one older boy was not home due to the war, but it never occured to me to put it together with the fact that much of Europe was in chaos at the time.

I don't know if that would have made it easier to slip something past or harder??



raf, if I'm not mistaken I think you've commented before on the detailed process of coming into Italy at that time and it sounded as if it would have, indeed, been very difficult to come up with all the proper (or looking proper) documentation to bring 5 children into the country. And not only the proper paperwork at the time of entry but also it would be on-going? Follow-ups with doctors, schools, etc? Is that right?

Right.

 

[wv171]

Good Show on 59 news

I would put up a link for everybody to news story & video

But I am unsure if this is allowed on here..

 

[Laura_Bean]

Okay I have a new angle/question.

Granddaughter, we have all heard that the children had said they had seen a strange car following them in the weeks before the fire. Is this true?

If so, how many people in 1945 in such a small town, owned a car? Did the children ever give a description of the car? A color, or a make, a model, a possible year? Was it in bad shape or did it look brand new? Any ideas as to what the children said about the car, or even the driver? Did they recognize the driver? It doesn't have to be that the children said it's mr. jones, but it could have been something like, I believe we've seen the person in the past. Male or female would be helpful. 1 person or 2 or more? It even helps if they said they had never seen that person before in their lives, because that probably means it was someone from out of town.

Just some ideas. Please granddaughter, any help on this angle would be much appreciated.

 

[Laura_Bean]

oh, and i know this is a very long shot, but partial license plate? Thanks again

 

[defender123]

On the above TV link be sure to put Sodder in the search bar..Good story.
And the link also mentioned the grandson was trying to get a grant for excavation of the old fire sight. Also mentioned that the Smithsonian said the bone found at the old sight had never seen a fire.Hmm.

 

[Laura_Bean]

Okay. Now I have read on different sites that back in the 1930's, 40's, and 50's if a soldier was not allowed to come home for a holiday, sometimes if a family member showed up at the place this person was stationed, and spoke with the person in charge, they would sometimes change their minds and let that soldier go home. Usually mothers would do this or fathers. But what if... Okay that year was sad because the oldest brother could not come home on leave. What if the people the children were seen with said, we'll take you there and you can plead the case? Hard to pass up, right? Wow, they would save Christmas for themselves, their parents AND their siblings. And it was all just a plot to kidnap these children for whatever reason. I shudder to think at some of the possibilities. Child sexual predators, or just to hurt the parents, or the mob thought the Sodder's owed something, or what. But either way that could be a way to get the children into a taxi cab and take them away. Now, something else I am considering is the possibility that maybe Betty wasn't part of the plan. I don't know why but I get the feeling it was something like the four other kids were talking about it and maybe Betty overheard, and being little said, Take me or I'll tell mom and dad now, kind of thing. Just because while the others could be more easily controlled, a 5 yr old child doesn't really quite understand the "Do what your told or else" thing. But could this have been the way they got the children into the car?

Thanks for any input!

:cat:

 

[Granddaughter]

I think a car was parked across the road when the children got off the school bus several times. I'll ask Mom what she recalls.

 

[Laura_Bean]

Okay so I have been looking at a whole bunch of the old posts about this case and I have some observations I think we should discuss.

1. Does anyone else think it's odd that a pineapple, (which is a military issue hand grenade), was found after the fire, and that the oldest son was in the military? Could the older son have had some sort of problems with someone in the military and it was taken out on his family?

2. The Sodder's said the children had not locked the door for the night. But back in the 1940's, almost no one locked their doors. There was simply no need for it. My great grandma, I was just told, never locked her door in the 40's. Were the Sodder's expecting trouble? Did they have some sort of feeling that something was going to happen that night? A premonition of some sort? Was it something they always did, locking the door? If so, why? Was there a lot of crime in West Virginia in 1945?

 

[snowme]

Re: The recent local news story w/video.
I think the link would be ok here. (mods, if not, pardon me and let me know of my error!)

http://www.cbs59.com/story.cfm?func=viewstory&storyid=59384

Thanks for the heads-up on it wv171!

 

[snowme]

Hi Laura, was there one (pineapple) actually found? I was thinking it had been said that something had been found afterward but it wasn't necessarily identifiable. I remember it was discussed that it could have been that.

Now that I'm thinking on that tho... if it had been a grenade... wouldn't it have caused a large flash, loud noise, and been more blatantly destructive to the property rather than just a knock sound (on the roof, as heard by Mrs. Sodder) and then slowly starting a fire to one side of the house??

Even if it had not been set off and been a main cause of the destruction.. had it just been in the fire... wouldn't it have gone off like other ammo would?

Am interested in the locking of the doors. I've always heard "we never used to lock our doors" and I know many people didn't but I have to wonder if the phrasing sometimes shouldn't be "we never had to lock our doors".


ETA: I do recall a driver or passenger of a bus having said he saw a bright flash of light.

I'm wondering tho if any neighbors or townsfolk ever said they saw a flash of light or heard a boom. I think Granddaughter told us recently there were no very nearby mineshafts so if there was booming going on it was probably distant and therefore this being much closer they would definitely have heard it??

Okay so I have been looking at a whole bunch of the old posts about this case and I have some observations I think we should discuss.

1. Does anyone else think it's odd that a pineapple, (which is a military issue hand grenade), was found after the fire, and that the oldest son was in the military? Could the older son have had some sort of problems with someone in the military and it was taken out on his family?

2. The Sodder's said the children had not locked the door for the night. But back in the 1940's, almost no one locked their doors. There was simply no need for it. My great grandma, I was just told, never locked her door in the 40's. Were the Sodder's expecting trouble? Did they have some sort of feeling that something was going to happen that night? A premonition of some sort? Was it something they always did, locking the door? If so, why? Was there a lot of crime in West Virginia in 1945?

 

[raf]

Okay so I have been looking at a whole bunch of the old posts about this case and I have some observations I think we should discuss.

1. Does anyone else think it's odd that a pineapple, (which is a military issue hand grenade), was found after the fire, and that the oldest son was in the military? Could the older son have had some sort of problems with someone in the military and it was taken out on his family?

2. The Sodder's said the children had not locked the door for the night. But back in the 1940's, almost no one locked their doors. There was simply no need for it. My great grandma, I was just told, never locked her door in the 40's. Were the Sodder's expecting trouble? Did they have some sort of feeling that something was going to happen that night? A premonition of some sort? Was it something they always did, locking the door? If so, why? Was there a lot of crime in West Virginia in 1945?

Laura abt first point, I can say, that some week ago, I found in WV old newspapers the name of John Sodder returning back at home around 14/23 december 1945... I remembering not very well the right day, but sure it was some day before of Christmas Eve...
regards,
raf

ps edit:
article found:
Raleigh Register (Beckley, West Virginia) > 1945 > December > 23

http://img29.imageshack.us/my.php?image=johnsodder23dec1945part.jpg

 

[Laura_Bean]

This changes everything! Raf, this may be the first big break in this case!

Everything we have read up until this point says John was not home for Christmas. If he was why did the parents lie and say he wasn't? And if John wasn't home for Christmas but was on leave, where was he spending Christmas?

 

[Granddaughter]

There are so many details on this site, it's easy to get confused. I think this is one of those instances. Two brothers had been away at war, not one. John returned before Christmas, and he was home and asleep upstairs when the fire occurred. Joe had not yet been released from service. He came home soon after the fire. Hope this helps to clarify the misunderstanding.

 

[raf]

Yes Granddaughter John was at home in Christmas Eve, no doubts...
Thanks,
raf

 

[Laura_Bean]

And click on the pictures tab, and write in the word Sodder. I than look at every single picture that shows up, just making sure nothing of interest pops up. Well, I did this same thing again and the other day I found a website. It simply said, "Sodder family", and only had one picture on it, a very old photograph it said was from 1945. I think that it might actually be from the end of 1945 or the beginning of 1946. Either way, it showed some older people, and one little girl. I cannot see her too well because she is very small in the photograph and even when I blew it up, it was hard to make out features. But what it does show, and what I could see without blowing it up, is she has a widow's peak, on the same side as Betty. She looks to be around 5 years old or so. She is standing on what looks like a rooftop with other adults and she has a smile on her face. Looking at the other rooftops, I tend to think this may have been taken IN ITALY. Okay sorry about the caps there, but this is a potential find, I think. It could show Betty shortly after she arrived in Italy, soon after she was abducted. Sad part is, there seems to be no way to contact the people who put up the website, no email address or contact information or anything. Just this picture with a caption of the year and names of people on the bottom. The caption on the bottom of the photo reads this:::
1945 with granny Esthaquinha Amelia Sodder Uncle Martin and Carol

http://sodder.us/wpics/00_on_roof.jpg

Go here and look at this photo guys, and tell me what you think. Is this Betty? A betty Lookalike? Or am I losing my eyesight? LOL. Anyways, thanks for any input. :cat:

 

[Teresa Larson]

Yes I do think it looks like the Sodder family. Who would have posted the picture?? Not sure if it's Betty I can't tell.

 

[raf]

hmmm.. personally... I believe that is just the same surname... the family- in the picture- seeming Bombay's people...
raf