WV - Sodder Family - 5 children, Christmas eve 1945 - #3

[raf]

Hi Teresa, it is a concrete fact that the children was kidnapped... also it is very probable that the mafia was involved.... the liver and the vertebra is a explicit signal that was involved bad people in all story... but who has let out the children outside of house? someone known from children ...
the children would not have believed to other thing that to a joke, or a surprise for the Christmas... the children loved the parents... as the parents loved the children...
the children have been kidnapped with a deceit.... with a flattery.... by some known person... accompanied and helped by others...

 

[Teresa Larson]

Hi Teresa, it is a concrete fact that the children was kidnapped... also it is very probable that the mafia was involved.... the liver and the vertebra is a explicit signal that was involved bad people in all story... but who has let out the children outside of house? someone known from children ...
the children would not have believed to other thing that to a joke, or a surprise for the Christmas... the children loved the parents... as the parents loved the children...
the children have been kidnapped with a deceit.... with a flattery.... by some known person... accompanied and helped by others...

Yes I agree Raf. I also think the children knew their kidnappers.

 

[Laura_Bean]

:cat: If the children did know the people or person who took them, than what is the motive? If we knew the motive perhaps it would make it easier to understand why and how and where the children ended up. We look at the whole beef liver thing, and we say mafia. So did Mr. Sodder know people in the mob? Did they frequent the house? Would the children have trusted them and gone with them as if they were "family" pardon the pun.... If not than who and why? Could someone in Italy have wanted the children to come and live with them? Granddaughter, perhaps you can answer for us, did the Mr. Sodder's family, still living in Italy, disagree with the children being raised in the US? Did Mrs. Sodder's family disagree with it? I mean... Here is one thing I can come up with off the top of my head. The family in Italy disapproves of the children being raised in America, as Americans, and perhaps calls Mrs. Sodder's brother and has him take the kids and send them back? But if that is so, why would he agree to it, and why didn't they also demand his kids?
And if not him, and not the mob, than who would the children trust enough to go with, and why were they taken? Neighbors? Someone from their school, like a teacher? Or an older kid that went to the same school? The children's doctor? I just don't know. And why would they take them? I wondered about possibly someone taking them to do bad things to them, I've heard of one child being taken for that, and even two, and I even know of one case where three children were taken together, but five? That seems like a lot, and in the case of the three children I heard about, they were much younger than Maurice and Martha Lee. So...
I also wondered about them leaving of their own accord, but why? Mr. and Mrs. Sodder, (if it is true, which I do believe it is), were good parents by all accounts. So why would the children leave in the middle of the night and set a house on fire? It doesn't make sense.

Anyway, just some thoughts.

 

[raf]

George Sodder had a dispute with the J's; it is sure.... J's menaced expressly George Sodder; it is sure also; we know not if the relations with Ciprianis was very good, good or so and so.... sure it was some problem, if I remember well...

the mob people was no knew by Sodders, so I think; maybe from J's..
but the mob people maybe helped for kidnapping, especially for fire house... for phone line cut and broken vehicles ... I think also for to hide the children... almost for the first time of kidnapping....
it is a deduction that the mob people was involved; the strange phoning to Jennie, the beef liver, the vertebra, the fire, all plan seeming a plan of mob people, and not a plan of occasional kidnappers....
The children sure are no in Italy... it is impossible... for many things, but sure it is impossible...
5 children can be kidnapped only with a deceit, leaving that the same children go from the kidnappers, or helping in some way the kidnappers, BUT without knowing that the innocent fugue in Christmas eve night becoming a kidnapping;
the kidnapping- as event -was known only by kidnappers; the children thinking to a sort of joke, surprise of Santa Claus or so and similar things...
my thought .....
raf

 

[drema]

The children sure are no in Italy... it is impossible... for many things, but sure it is impossible...
Why is it impossible for the children to be in Italy? Love to hear your thoughts

5 children can be kidnapped only with a deceit, leaving that the same children go from the kidnappers, or helping in some way the kidnappers, BUT without knowing that the innocent fugue in Christmas eve night becoming a kidnapping;

the kidnapping- as event -was known only by kidnappers; the children thinking to a sort of joke, surprise of Santa Claus or so and similathings... Totally agree!​

my thought .....
raf

HI! Haven't posted in a while-seems some great ideas are coming to the board. I have underlined by comments in your statements.
Could you answer why you think it is impossible the children were taken to Italy? Thank you so much for your thoughts and insight.

 

[raf]

Originally Posted by raf
The children sure are no in Italy... it is impossible... for many things, but sure it is impossible...
Why is it impossible for the children to be in Italy? Love to hear your thoughts

Hi:
because the Italy is as a old lady and as all old ladies is very precise; and nobody can enter in Italy without right documents.... the children was in minor age and and they could not enter in Italy without the parents, or at least with the status of orphans but always accompanied from adult persons as adoptive parents or by a charity organization; but in any case the documents proving that, they would have been controlled from the Italian consulate in USA, by USA notarian acts, and then, by Italian government in Italy, with a previous deep investigation; the investigation was made in some way and also by catholic priests in USA...

I believe that nobody catholic priest in USA would have sworne the false abt the children...
oh ... yes I can understand the objection abt false documents, false identities etc... but also false baptism acts? and confirmations acts.. etc... and the USA school documents abt the children??? also false?
no it is impossible..
also if: the kidnappers had the power of to corrupt many people and so obtain all false documents very precise for the children...

well all and however was no satisfing and with much risk, because the "turning" (involved persons) abt kidnapping became more large, and I believe that the kidnappers wanted not that some people known the story...

they could be blackmailed in the future... and it was also the risk that in Italy in some way ( by school, by future marriage of children etc) was descovered that the documents was false;

in Italy many civil and church documents expiring after max 6 months from relaying.. and they are made from original documents, with all indications for to find the original in archive.... so if the children was in Italy- they needing in many period of life- of USA civil and church documents so for exemple in 1965 ...for a school .. again all documents but relayed in 1965: birth act, family act ; family residence act; etc...

thinking that for any school course need all documents by new relaying, and so for any thing, well it is inconceivable to think that the children was in Italy and all well.. always all well... and nobody descovering or suspecting abt this foreign children....
it are so much burocracy in Italy that I'm very surprise descovering by my genealogy work, that in USA was so easy to change the name, or first name or other important data so easily... and nobody checking...

the kidnapping was in 1945 and maybe in current time is more easy to make false documents by technology... but it was and is a big risk in Italy... for burocracy ...
For that I believe that the children was no in Italy...
they remained in USA...
raf
PS sorry for my english

 

[Laura_Bean]

So what do you think of Little Italy or Italy Little being the cryptic ILIL boys or LILI boys? That is beginning to look more and more plausible all the time I think. So the question is WHICH little Italy in America at the time was it? And does the school fit in? If so, how? And why are they so quick to dismiss this idea? They seemed to know a lot about the Sodder children, I guess it's a legend all around WV... Where do we go from here?
And good job Raf, that was much appreciated and helpful. And don't worry about your spelling errors. I think I speak for every1 here when I say you are a very valuable member of websleuths, and your insights help us greatly. :clap:

 

[christine2448]

Quick update just to let you know the writer is doing a story and has contacted Jennie and coordinating. Praying once agian for attention to be brought to this cold case that is getting too cold. Time is running out.

 

[raf]

So what do you think of Little Italy or Italy Little being the cryptic ILIL boys or LILI boys? That is beginning to look more and more plausible all the time I think. So the question is WHICH little Italy in America at the time was it? And does the school fit in? If so, how? And why are they so quick to dismiss this idea? They seemed to know a lot about the Sodder children, I guess it's a legend all around WV... Where do we go from here?
And good job Raf, that was much appreciated and helpful. And don't worry about your spelling errors. I think I speak for every1 here when I say you are a very valuable member of websleuths, and your insights help us greatly. :clap:

Thank you snowme...
Thank you Laura.. I try of helping in Sodder case...

abt ILIL boys or LILI boys I believe that maybe it could be helpful to post the back picture of Louis Sodder ... maybe we can have some different suggestion ...
all the best,
raf

 

[snowme]

On the back of the picture was this:

Louis Sodder
I Love brother Frankie
lili Boys
A90132 or 35

Originally posted by Shadow205 here: http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sho...&postcount=422

Did we ever have a scan of the back.. the actual writing?

 

[raf]

maybe the scan back picture can be helpful....

 

[Laura_Bean]

Raf, it would be helpful. But I believe the actual photograph is no longer surviving. I think they only scanned the front of the photo. Granddaughter, can you please help with this? Is this photograph still around? If so is the back still intact? And I have a few questions I need to ask you Granddaughter some things just off the top of my head.

Ok. Mr. George Sodder wanted to get into those bedrooms so badly, and first the ladder was missing, than two cars wouldn't start. I think the plan was to drive the cars under the bedroom window of the kid's room and get in that way. But the cars wouldn't start. We also know that one of the girls I believe? Had run to a neighbor's home and had used the phone to call the fire dept. What I don't understand, is why George and say one of his sons didn't run to the neighbors and ask to borrow a ladder or a car to drive under that window. It's just something I was wondering about. Did the fire move too quickly for that? Or did they ask to borrow those things and were they denied the usage of them?

If they asked and were denied the usage of these items, that says a lot about the town they were living in and what people thought of the family, or perhaps they were made to promise not to allow him usage or perhaps they were scared because they were relativly sure they knew who did those things.

If the fire moved too fast, and by the time the cars wouldn't start and the ladder was missing they didn't have time to go to a neighbors I kind of get that... Or perhaps, they just didn't think of it. I dont know.

 

[Granddaughter]

Raf and Laura Bean -

We don't have the photo any longer. My grandmother lived with us for a number of years before she died, and it was not among her things that we brought with her to our house. We checked with my uncles in the past, and unfortunately none of us knows what happened to the photo.

I'll check with Mom about the ladder. However, from the descriptions she has given me, the fire progressed very quickly. I know that my grandfather and uncles were frantically trying to get into the house to find the children, and my aunt Mary Ann left quickly to call for help. I don't think there was enough time for the neighbors to help.

 

[Granddaughter]

Mom has been working her way through the posts and is developing answers to the questions that have been presented. Some of the past posts asked about coal mines in the area where the children might have gone that night. There were no coal mines that were within walking distance, even for an adult on a nice day. It would have been an impossible distance for young children at midnight in freezing temperatures and deep snow.

 

[Granddaughter]

Concerning the photo of the young man believed to be Louis, the fact that the photo was mailed from Central City, Kentucky, does not necessarily mean that it originated there. My mom and dad went to Central City the following weekend after my grandparents received the photo. They drove though all the streets looking for a building with windows similar to those in the picture. They also stopped at some service stations and stores to ask whether the person in the photo was familiar to them. Their response was always "no." My parents couldn't find anything to tie the young man or the window in the background to Central City. Perhaps the letter was dropped in the mail by someone passing through the area, or by someone who did not want the postmark to be traced.

 

[Laura_Bean]

Granddaughter, thank you for the answers. I have something else to ask really quickly here, I just was wondering your mother's take on this. Does she believe it could be possible that the children decided to go out into the woods to get a Christmas tree for the family? I read that year was a sad one because one of the children was in the army and could not come home. And there was no Christmas tree. Could it be possible that the children left the house, thinking they would make their parents Christmas by bringing home a tree and surprising them with it?

Another thing I wanted to ask about was the school we have all been talking about. The number on the back of the photo corresponds to a "school code", and I did call and speak with someone who worked at the school. She was less than surprised that I was asking about the Sodder children, and very quick to dismiss that the children were ever at the school. Just something I wanted to ask you about, to your knowledge has the school ever been checked in the past?

Thank you granddaughter, you are a wonderful help to us all, and our only link to the family. Thank you and your mother for everything.

 

[raf]

Concerning the photo of the young man believed to be Louis, the fact that the photo was mailed from Central City, Kentucky, does not necessarily mean that it originated there. My mom and dad went to Central City the following weekend after my grandparents received the photo. They drove though all the streets looking for a building with windows similar to those in the picture. They also stopped at some service stations and stores to ask whether the person in the photo was familiar to them. Their response was always "no." My parents couldn't find anything to tie the young man or the window in the background to Central City. Perhaps the letter was dropped in the mail by someone passing through the area, or by someone who did not want the postmark to be traced.

Hi Granddaughter,
the window in the background abt Louis Sodder picture...
maybe the Louis Sodder picture posted here is a part only...?? I see not a window... just a undefined background.....
You can explain better?
Thanks,
raf

 

[raf]

Yes, George Sodder spoke badly of Mussolini which made some of the Italian community of Fayetteville very angry. I think the man (CJ) who threatened Mr. Sodder before the fire said-I see you will not settle the estate of your father-in-law (Cipriani). (He was also angry about Mr. Sodder refusing to buy life insurance for the children). You will pay for the things you have said about Mussolini. Your house will burn and your children will be destroyed. I can look up the direct quote. Seems some of the Italian community did not like Mr. Sodder.

I have alway found the fact that he said" and your children will be destroyed" very interesting but just can't figure out why it bothers me. I would have thought he would have said-your house will burn destroying you and your family. But everyone has a different why of speaking and expressing themselves.

Hi Laura,
a step back, abt this post... I wish ask:

1. What was the relations between Ciprianis and CJ? Good friend or no... ? CJ respecting Ciprianis or not???

2. What was the help that Ciprianis given to George Sodder after the tragedy?

3. The Ciprianis was doleful for the children tragedy?

4. The Ciprianis-when George Sodder was sure that the children no died in the fire-well, they helped George Sodder in the children search?

5. CJ was doleful also, after the tragedy, or CJ never had more good relations with George Sodder after the rage abt Mussolini and the vendetta intentions and menaces?

6. George Sodder when hearing that the children was in a motel with italian adult persons, and other similar proofs that the children was alive, well he spoke with the Ciprianis abt that? The Ciprianis was interested in knowdlege of search's development? and of any particular of search? If yes, it is reasonable to think that the Ciprianis adopted countermeasures for preventing further developments abt children finding?

7. it is reasonable to think, second your opinion, that in the kidnapping was involved:
-CJ as first subject;
-the Ciprianis as second subjects;
-the mob people as third subject ( material kidnapping, house fire etc)

8. that the CJ desire was of destroying Sodder family and the house by fire

9. and that this initial first plan was modified in a second plan, by intervent of Ciprianis- wich knowing abt bad intention of CJ- used own power influence on CJ, forcing it in a minor vendetta, saving the children and burning only the house?
and saving the children .... but with the promise that the children -under Ciprianis custody- would be disappeared for ever?

and that so making the vendetta however was made in any case...???

and that the CJ anathema was accomplished.... completely and equally, also without the children death?

10. It is reasonable to think that the Ciprianis knowing who CJ was and how much he was determined in the vendetta, in the case that -in some way -the children re-appearing, CJ would have used its long hand for to ending the vendetta, changing the second plan, and bringing back it to first initial plan? and that CJ -in the case of children re-appearing.. it would have made vendetta on the Ciprianis also?

That could be explain many things...
just a my idea...

all the best,
raf

 

[mnegri1973]

In regards to the children being sent back to Italy.... Most if not all of Europe was torn apart at this time in history. There were people going in and out of countries without having proper documentation. IMO it would have been easy to get 5 kids into Italy without having the proper documentation. It would have also been easy to have fake paperwork made for the kids since most papers were destroyed due to the war.

Mel ~

 

[raf]

In regards to the children being sent back to Italy.... Most if not all of Europe was torn apart at this time in history. There were people going in and out of countries without having proper documentation. IMO it would have been easy to get 5 kids into Italy without having the proper documentation. It would have also been easy to have fake paperwork made for the kids since most papers were destroyed due to the war.

Mel ~

I agree not...