i've been following this case or at least trying to since I read about it in a magazine. All I know is that the case occurred at a time in American history when kids were getting abducted and taken to illegal orphanages, not to say that's what happened, but I'd like to see a Cold Case files or America's Most wanted cover it to get it into the public eye. Those Sodder kids could be alive to resolve what happened
WV - Sodder Family - 5 children, Christmas eve 1945 - #3
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shadowangel
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I googled "Sodder" and "India"...They seem to own a lot of hotels! 
snowme
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I increased the percentage down in the bottom right corner of internet explorer to 200% (without degradation) and opened Betty's school picture right beside it. (What darling baby faces!) I see what you are saying about similarity of the hairline. It seems tho that the little girl with family has an even more pronounced pointed hairline (side closest to man holding her) than Betty... that could be the haircut tho? They do have generally the same face shape and features, altho Betty's eyebrows appear much darker but that could be due to lighting on the outdoor photo. The family girl seems a tad younger than Betty's school picture.
Funny in all the searching and googling that I'm sure lots of us do that we hadn't hit upon this picture before!
I was looking at the source code for the page hoping to find a tidbit of some kind of info and it struck me to look up the domain on whois.net (can sometimes tell you who purchased the dot com/dot net, etc.) This one stood out because it's not your typical dot com but a dot us. Anyway, I don't feel right about linking to the owner info page but he did not choose to be private. Arnold S. and an email is listed there if someone would want to see if he's aware of any connection between his family and our Sodder family here.
Funny in all the searching and googling that I'm sure lots of us do that we hadn't hit upon this picture before!
I was looking at the source code for the page hoping to find a tidbit of some kind of info and it struck me to look up the domain on whois.net (can sometimes tell you who purchased the dot com/dot net, etc.) This one stood out because it's not your typical dot com but a dot us. Anyway, I don't feel right about linking to the owner info page but he did not choose to be private. Arnold S. and an email is listed there if someone would want to see if he's aware of any connection between his family and our Sodder family here.
PeanutButterNJilly
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Hello, everyone This is my first post here at websleuths, although I've spent the last few days reading every post on this thread, taking notes, and printing as many of the articles, pictures, and linked information as is still available.
I first started reading about this case a couple of years ago and somehow got away from it. Needless to say, my interest has been renewed with a passion.
I am extremely disappointed the Sodder children website is no longer available. I understand it had quite a bit more information, articles, pictures, etc. than these threads do. If any of you can point me in the direction where these things can still be found, happen to have them and wouldn't mind emailing them to me, ANYTHING, I would greatly appreciate it.
As I said, since going through these threads and reading all the posts, there are a few things I have questions about, and some things that stand out to me that no one seems to have addressed on here before. Here are a few things I have questions about and hope to research further.
1. In the first article listed in the first thread, a Charleston Gazette article dated Dec. 22, 1968, George states about the letter they received with the picture of the supposed Louis Sodder, "That letter, like all our others, had been opened and then resealed." I would love to know who delivered their mail, who the postmaster of the area was, and any more information about this that any of you may know.
2. The "pineapple." I believe it was Fox who first said it couldn't be a pineapple because he/she had witnessed it burning through an engine block and that they were made of metal. I talked this over with my husband (who is in the military) and he stated the same. Between talking with him, we've come to the conclusion the soldier who told the Sodder's this was a military device called a pineapple may not have been/probably was not a soldier at all, but someone who was in on the plot and wanted to keep the Sodder's from discovering exactly what the device was. An excellent idea my husband had (which I plan to research further as well), could this have been some sort of firework? After all, being 5 days from New Year's they would be readily available.
3. I've seen many of you make reference to the weather that night, but I haven't seen any article or definitive answer from the family about it. Some have said it was rainy, some said there was snow on the ground. Most accounts have stated it was very cold and very windy. If there was snow on the ground, did anyone happen to check for footprints leading in any direction away from the home? If so, where did they lead?
Those are just a few of the things that have occurred to me and that I hope to find some answers to. Again, any information, other than what is listed in these threads, I would love to have access to. Also, I have heard George Bragg may possibly be writing a book on this. Does anyone happen to have his email address?
Thank you guys so much for your time. By the way, I think it's amazing and heartwarming how much time and effort so many of you have put into this case. I know if this had happened to my family, I would greatly appreciate a group like this taking such an interest and active role in helping find the answers.
This is my first post here at websleuths, although I've spent the last few days reading every post on this thread, taking notes, and printing as many of the articles, pictures, and linked information as is still available.I first started reading about this case a couple of years ago and somehow got away from it. Needless to say, my interest has been renewed with a passion.
I am extremely disappointed the Sodder children website is no longer available. I understand it had quite a bit more information, articles, pictures, etc. than these threads do. If any of you can point me in the direction where these things can still be found, happen to have them and wouldn't mind emailing them to me, ANYTHING, I would greatly appreciate it.
As I said, since going through these threads and reading all the posts, there are a few things I have questions about, and some things that stand out to me that no one seems to have addressed on here before. Here are a few things I have questions about and hope to research further.
1. In the first article listed in the first thread, a Charleston Gazette article dated Dec. 22, 1968, George states about the letter they received with the picture of the supposed Louis Sodder, "That letter, like all our others, had been opened and then resealed." I would love to know who delivered their mail, who the postmaster of the area was, and any more information about this that any of you may know.
2. The "pineapple." I believe it was Fox who first said it couldn't be a pineapple because he/she had witnessed it burning through an engine block and that they were made of metal. I talked this over with my husband (who is in the military) and he stated the same. Between talking with him, we've come to the conclusion the soldier who told the Sodder's this was a military device called a pineapple may not have been/probably was not a soldier at all, but someone who was in on the plot and wanted to keep the Sodder's from discovering exactly what the device was. An excellent idea my husband had (which I plan to research further as well), could this have been some sort of firework? After all, being 5 days from New Year's they would be readily available.
3. I've seen many of you make reference to the weather that night, but I haven't seen any article or definitive answer from the family about it. Some have said it was rainy, some said there was snow on the ground. Most accounts have stated it was very cold and very windy. If there was snow on the ground, did anyone happen to check for footprints leading in any direction away from the home? If so, where did they lead?
Those are just a few of the things that have occurred to me and that I hope to find some answers to. Again, any information, other than what is listed in these threads, I would love to have access to. Also, I have heard George Bragg may possibly be writing a book on this. Does anyone happen to have his email address?
Thank you guys so much for your time. By the way, I think it's amazing and heartwarming how much time and effort so many of you have put into this case. I know if this had happened to my family, I would greatly appreciate a group like this taking such an interest and active role in helping find the answers.
Laura_Bean
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I must ask, if it was a firework that started the fire, could the children have somehow gotten their hands on them and accidentally started the whole thing? Just a thought.
PeanutButterNJilly
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Quite possible, Laura. However, that still leaves the children no where to be found. I can't see them running off for fear of being in trouble.
Laura_Bean
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Oh I know it still leaves children completely unaccounted for. I'm just trying to figure out this puzzle one piece at a time. If the fire was started accidentally, the kidnapping may have been a spur of the moment thing, not a planned thing. Which can help us. Let's say the children accidentally set the fire, run to get help, and someone sees them running down the road. The person or people promise to get help and tell the kids to hop in, it'll be quicker to travel for help by car than on foot, the kids all climb in and than... Well, than I shudder to think...
PeanutButterNJilly
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Does anyone know what became of Lisa/Lbutler? I'd love to talk to her about some of the ideas she had on this case.
sas377
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Hi all! I have spent the last two days reading thru the threads. I found this case interesting because one side of my family is from WV (Wetzel Co. mostly) and my fiance's family is from Italy. I am under the impression that the picture is not of Louis and the number on the back is possibly an A number (or it is Louis and something really crazy is going on...possibly taken to Italy, given a new identity (with or without a new name), and re-immigrated). I know they usually have 8 digits behind the A, but they may have been "0"s and not written out. I know it's been mentioned early on in thread #2, but I don't think it was expanded on. I have been unable to find a site to search by A number to connect it to a name. Anybody have any idea if this is possible?
BTW: I want to thank whomever linked the WV Division of Culture and History website for vital records. I was able to find scans of my great-grandparent's marriage license!
BTW: I want to thank whomever linked the WV Division of Culture and History website for vital records. I was able to find scans of my great-grandparent's marriage license!
Thank's PeanutbutterNjlly For use of part of your post ...
. The "pineapple." I believe it was Fox who first said it couldn't be a pineapple because he/she had witnessed it burning through an engine block and that they were made of metal. I talked this over with my husband (who is in the military) and he stated the same. Between talking with him, we've come to the conclusion the soldier who told the Sodder's this was a military device called a pineapple may not have been/probably was not a soldier at all, but someone who was in on the plot and wanted to keep the Sodder's from discovering exactly what the device was. An excellent idea my husband had (which I plan to research further as well), could this have been some sort of firework? After all, being 5 days from New Year's they would be readily available.
Myself I allway thought this was a some type of a true event but was called a wrong name by the local's .. I am a active and very highly trained by WVU as a cert. Fire Fighter ... Now I could be wrong on this peanutbutternjilly but if you please ask your husband about a 2nd opioion on this type of device that is small hand held with a pull pin and very much could be confuse as a Pineapple type WW-2 equipment...
This is what I think they used and it was used a lot in WW-2
Thermate-TH3 is a mixture of thermite and pyrotechnic additives which have been found to be superior to standard thermite for incendiary purposes. Its composition by weight is generally 68.7% thermite, 29.0% barium nitrate, 2.0% sulfur and 0.3% binder (such as PBAN). The addition of barium nitrate to thermite increases its thermal effect, produces a larger flame, and significantly reduces the ignition temperature. Although the primary purpose of Thermate-TH3 by the armed forces is as an incendiary anti-material weapon, it also has uses in welding metal components.
A classic military use for thermite is disabling artillery pieces, and has been used commonly for this purpose since the Second World War. Thermite can permanently disable artillery pieces without the use of explosive charges and therefore can be used when silence is necessary to an operation. There are several ways to do this. By far the most destructive method is to weld the weapon shut by inserting one or more armed thermite grenades into the breech and then quickly closing it. This makes the weapon impossible to load. An alternative method is to insert an armed thermite grenade down the muzzle of the artillery piece, fouling the barrel. This makes the piece very dangerous to fire. Yet another method is to use thermite to weld the traversing and elevation mechanism of the weapon, making it impossible to aim properly.
More on this weapon is on this WIKI Link I added to explain this in more detail for the readers that like more infromation on my idea on this..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermite
I grow up and still live in that WV area..
I just a few weeks ago, I burn down a old house on some of my personal property and it was built back in the 1920-30's ... What sometime's not took into fact is these homes was built with ( rough lumber) and had no flame retardent at all on any building material, This was very common way and really only way we had to build homes in our area during that time period...
House I just burned was totally engulf in flames within a 10 to 15 minute time period ..... I had to put a couple excavator buckets of dirt in middle of the fire to keep it under control, It was burning so hot it was making its own small Tornado effect weather system within that fire trying to feed itself more Oxygen,
Just so lucky for myself I called into 911 system and told them who I was and what I was going to do before I stated the house fire ... But they still got over 7 emergency call's over my preplan house fire..
Like I say I very well could be wrong on this device that was used but I would greatly appreciate a good 2nd look at my idea..
Thank You
. The "pineapple." I believe it was Fox who first said it couldn't be a pineapple because he/she had witnessed it burning through an engine block and that they were made of metal. I talked this over with my husband (who is in the military) and he stated the same. Between talking with him, we've come to the conclusion the soldier who told the Sodder's this was a military device called a pineapple may not have been/probably was not a soldier at all, but someone who was in on the plot and wanted to keep the Sodder's from discovering exactly what the device was. An excellent idea my husband had (which I plan to research further as well), could this have been some sort of firework? After all, being 5 days from New Year's they would be readily available.
Myself I allway thought this was a some type of a true event but was called a wrong name by the local's .. I am a active and very highly trained by WVU as a cert. Fire Fighter ... Now I could be wrong on this peanutbutternjilly but if you please ask your husband about a 2nd opioion on this type of device that is small hand held with a pull pin and very much could be confuse as a Pineapple type WW-2 equipment...
This is what I think they used and it was used a lot in WW-2
Thermate-TH3 is a mixture of thermite and pyrotechnic additives which have been found to be superior to standard thermite for incendiary purposes. Its composition by weight is generally 68.7% thermite, 29.0% barium nitrate, 2.0% sulfur and 0.3% binder (such as PBAN). The addition of barium nitrate to thermite increases its thermal effect, produces a larger flame, and significantly reduces the ignition temperature. Although the primary purpose of Thermate-TH3 by the armed forces is as an incendiary anti-material weapon, it also has uses in welding metal components.
A classic military use for thermite is disabling artillery pieces, and has been used commonly for this purpose since the Second World War. Thermite can permanently disable artillery pieces without the use of explosive charges and therefore can be used when silence is necessary to an operation. There are several ways to do this. By far the most destructive method is to weld the weapon shut by inserting one or more armed thermite grenades into the breech and then quickly closing it. This makes the weapon impossible to load. An alternative method is to insert an armed thermite grenade down the muzzle of the artillery piece, fouling the barrel. This makes the piece very dangerous to fire. Yet another method is to use thermite to weld the traversing and elevation mechanism of the weapon, making it impossible to aim properly.
More on this weapon is on this WIKI Link I added to explain this in more detail for the readers that like more infromation on my idea on this..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermite
I grow up and still live in that WV area..
I just a few weeks ago, I burn down a old house on some of my personal property and it was built back in the 1920-30's ... What sometime's not took into fact is these homes was built with ( rough lumber) and had no flame retardent at all on any building material, This was very common way and really only way we had to build homes in our area during that time period...
House I just burned was totally engulf in flames within a 10 to 15 minute time period ..... I had to put a couple excavator buckets of dirt in middle of the fire to keep it under control, It was burning so hot it was making its own small Tornado effect weather system within that fire trying to feed itself more Oxygen,
Just so lucky for myself I called into 911 system and told them who I was and what I was going to do before I stated the house fire ... But they still got over 7 emergency call's over my preplan house fire..
Like I say I very well could be wrong on this device that was used but I would greatly appreciate a good 2nd look at my idea..
Thank You
PeanutButterNJilly
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Hi WV171. I will ask my husband about this. I've never heard of this type of device before and it definitely seems plausible. The thing I'm still getting stuck on though - the grenade or device being hard rubber. I have searched and searched and asked numerous people knowledgeable in military artillery, and no one can think of a single device made of hard rubber. They were all some type of metal.
When you burned the old house on your land, did you happen to notice it burning hotter than usual? And by that, I mean MUCH hotter than usual.... more than 3000 degrees?
When you burned the old house on your land, did you happen to notice it burning hotter than usual? And by that, I mean MUCH hotter than usual.... more than 3000 degrees?
PeanutButterNJilly
Being a Vol. Fire Fighter for many years.. Yes these type of home fires are much hotter than Modern material's fire's.. I personally seen them melt hard plastic light covers on modern auto's parked near the fire before..
Hot enough where I had to order all equipment to back away from burning home because it burn my hands just touching door handle on Fire Truck, But 3000 degrees without a heat gun to test the temp. I have to say no.. Next house fire of that type if I get a chance I test it for us..
In this area I would say only way for a fire to reach that type of a temp. would be with House Coal with high winds at that home site.. Keep in mind most all these homes had plain Tar Paper somewhere, roofing or siding somewhere in there building construction..
Coal is still being used as a heat and sometimes cooking fires in this area but not as common as back in 1940's or earlier.. Matter fact all my years going to school all my schools used Coal as it's main heat source..
Few years back I went down that investigation road of a fire getting so hot there was a chance of bodies being cremate in this 1 case...
Personally myself I came to believe there just way too many things that had to be just right to do this.. Such as high winds, Location of house Coal pile, BTU of the Coal being used and other stuff that chance of this happen was slim to none..
I am not trying to say it's impossible for this to had happen but everything would had to been just right to keep a fire hot enough for such a long period of time in this case that chance of this happen was about same as hitting the lottery on any given day..
Being a Vol. Fire Fighter for many years.. Yes these type of home fires are much hotter than Modern material's fire's.. I personally seen them melt hard plastic light covers on modern auto's parked near the fire before..
Hot enough where I had to order all equipment to back away from burning home because it burn my hands just touching door handle on Fire Truck, But 3000 degrees without a heat gun to test the temp. I have to say no.. Next house fire of that type if I get a chance I test it for us..
In this area I would say only way for a fire to reach that type of a temp. would be with House Coal with high winds at that home site.. Keep in mind most all these homes had plain Tar Paper somewhere, roofing or siding somewhere in there building construction..
Coal is still being used as a heat and sometimes cooking fires in this area but not as common as back in 1940's or earlier.. Matter fact all my years going to school all my schools used Coal as it's main heat source..
Few years back I went down that investigation road of a fire getting so hot there was a chance of bodies being cremate in this 1 case...
Personally myself I came to believe there just way too many things that had to be just right to do this.. Such as high winds, Location of house Coal pile, BTU of the Coal being used and other stuff that chance of this happen was slim to none..
I am not trying to say it's impossible for this to had happen but everything would had to been just right to keep a fire hot enough for such a long period of time in this case that chance of this happen was about same as hitting the lottery on any given day..
Shadow205
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There may have been a link way back sometime to this but the site is worth posting another link. For a beginner on The Sodder Children, I think that the info at this link could give them the basics very quickly.
Good pictures there also.
http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=17466286
Good pictures there also.
http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=17466286
Laura_Bean
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this case has always bothered me and probably always will. It feels like this. :banghead:
I am not sure what else we can do. I am NOT suggesting we give up by any means, but do we have any more ideas? Any more avenues to potentially explore? Anything at all?
I am not sure what else we can do. I am NOT suggesting we give up by any means, but do we have any more ideas? Any more avenues to potentially explore? Anything at all?
Here's a question about whether the house fire could cremate the bodies well enough that they weren't found...
IF the house had coal in the cellar, a tar paper roof, very flammable curtains and drapes, old couches full of very flammable stuffing, possibly kerosene lamps in some rooms (at least for emergencies), dry wood floors, etc. AND it was a windy night, AND the children were in the ground floor AND the upper floor collapsed on them, THEN would the bones have been broken into small enough pieces in the rubble that they weren't recognized at the time?
It sounds like the original inspection of the wreckage was not very thorough by modern standards, and then everything was pushed back into the cellar hole and covered up. There must not have been much left of that big house! Then, everything was buried for decades. If the bones broke into fragments in the initial fire and house collapse, then were buried for decades, only a forensic anthropologist or someone trained equally well would likely spot them. Bones that have been in a very hot fire start to fracture 'like a stack of nickels'. Children's bones would be particularly vulnerable.
IF the house had coal in the cellar, a tar paper roof, very flammable curtains and drapes, old couches full of very flammable stuffing, possibly kerosene lamps in some rooms (at least for emergencies), dry wood floors, etc. AND it was a windy night, AND the children were in the ground floor AND the upper floor collapsed on them, THEN would the bones have been broken into small enough pieces in the rubble that they weren't recognized at the time?
It sounds like the original inspection of the wreckage was not very thorough by modern standards, and then everything was pushed back into the cellar hole and covered up. There must not have been much left of that big house! Then, everything was buried for decades. If the bones broke into fragments in the initial fire and house collapse, then were buried for decades, only a forensic anthropologist or someone trained equally well would likely spot them. Bones that have been in a very hot fire start to fracture 'like a stack of nickels'. Children's bones would be particularly vulnerable.
Another thought: they only searched the site for about four hours, actually probably less. (If the fire burned from "Christmas Eve" until the fire dept arrived at 7 am, then they 'searched until 11 am', how long did it take for the ashes to cool down before they could get in there?) When a friend of ours lost her house in the big Calif fires two years ago, she couldn't find her family silverware or jewelry for days. We had to grid the whole slab out, then sift, removing debris from the site as we went. Silverware and jewelry don't disintegrate, they just melt. And she didn't have a cellar, just a slab. And her house was only one story high. How did they search the basement area if they didn't take the time to remove the debris?
In a regular house fire, a body will curl up into the fetal position from contraction of the muscles. It makes them hard to find. As the fire gets hotter, the bones fracture. If the poor family was looking for a whole body, laid out in the smoldering embers, they wouldn't be successful.
In a regular house fire, a body will curl up into the fetal position from contraction of the muscles. It makes them hard to find. As the fire gets hotter, the bones fracture. If the poor family was looking for a whole body, laid out in the smoldering embers, they wouldn't be successful.
Teresa Larson
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The fire from the house would not have been hot enough to cremate the bones. It has to be very hot. There should have still been fragments of bones and there weren't any. I do believe years ago some one I think an anthropologist dug at the site and found nothing. I firmly believe the Mob had something to do with the children's disappearance.
OHHSBandGeek
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Hi everyone. This is my first post here, but I've been reading the threads for quite some time.
I first read about this story when I was probably 10, and it's been an interest to me every since. I live in the neighboring town of Fayetteville (Oak Hill), and I was wondering if anyone had the exact location of the old Sodder property.
Sadly, the story has started to die... even in this area. I have a few friends in Fayetteville who have never even heard the story.
I first read about this story when I was probably 10, and it's been an interest to me every since. I live in the neighboring town of Fayetteville (Oak Hill), and I was wondering if anyone had the exact location of the old Sodder property.
Sadly, the story has started to die... even in this area. I have a few friends in Fayetteville who have never even heard the story.
Hi OHHSBankGeek. This is also my first post, although i have been reading every thread related to the Sodders. I'm from the area, too, and not everyone has forgotten. I am fairly sure that their property was where the new Little General is now. Either there or on the other side of the road behind Tudor's. Either way, that side of the highway, and before you get to Janutolo Park. My apologies that I'm not 100% certain.
Oh & speaking of Janutolo Park, a long time ago on this forum someone expressed interest in it. There is indeed still a well there which has been there since civil war times. That's basically all that Janutolo Park is, is that well.
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