WV WV - Sodder Family - 5 children, Christmas eve 1945 - #4

[Carnifax]

Commando, that was some first post, nice job. I always appreciate a well thought out, nicely written post. To the point, intelligent, insightful. Welcome to the boards.

Let me take a second to respond to some points but first a couple of statements.

First, many of the supposed "facts" bandied about on these forums are nothing more than pure conjecture. In fact, one of the most maddening and frustrating aspects of researching these types of cases is when the points directly contradict one another. Who or what do you choose to believe? Do you trust a reporter that wrote a newspaper article the day after it happened? How do we know the reporter was even there? Do we trust a modern website? How do we know where they got their info? Do we trust a reporter for the New York Times that did a very good radio spot for NPR? There are many broadly accepted "facts" that are indeed probably anything but that. It's very, very frustrating when one tries to distill down to the raw truth.

Unfortunately, there is no central repository for the truth. I may be off base here but I would even venture to say even the direct relatives would have a hard time discerning fact from fiction. The stories get handed down through generations and become distorted and warped. I would even venture to say because this story has always seemed to attract a certain amount of "notoriety", the story has become even more twisted and warped. Had it just been "discovered", it might be easier for one to understand the "facts" easier now. It's like walking through a stream. After enough people walk through, the water is so muddy and cloudy you cant see the bottom. While a lot of the theory and conjecture is no doubt intriguing and compelling has to be ignored in the search for the truth. If we cant prove it, it didnt happen.

Having said all that, this is one tough case to (re)solve and even understand. Time makes mortals of us all and the more this case fades, the more it really becomes folklore and legend. But legend or not, a family was devastated that night and that sleepy community was never the same. I try to keep that in mind in my research and my posts here. Ok, enough rambling...

The Sodder's oldest son Joe, was in the military and on his way home (stateside) on the night in question.

Both Sodder parents were born in Italy

George Sodder was rumored to have been an outspoken critic of Mussolini. No way to prove this though. Furthermore, I would imagine most American's of any nationality were "outspoken critics" of his. He was especially unpopular among Italians who thought he wrongly led Italy into WW2 where they were soundly defeated. In fact Mussolini was so unpopular, we has executed and hanged in public by Italians in April of 1945. So even if George was shooting his mouth off about him, I would hardly think this was a hugely controversial stance.

A lady supposedly saw the children in the presence of Italian speaking men. In Florida? Im not sure but I think you are referring to the lady(waitress) who supposedly saw the children in a restaurant in Charleston (45 miles away). I have a hard time believing someone would have that kind of recall. First off, if you look at the newspapers from the time, while there was coverage, there were no pictures of the missing kids (they were assumed to be dead) so how did the waitress conclude they were the Sodder kids? To my knowledge, the waitress had no connection to the family (so how could she even know what they looked like?).

A private detective was sent to look for the kids and disappeared. In fact a string of them did. One small detail though, they disappeared AFTER taking George's money.

Papa Sodder (George) received a black hand letter. Proof?

A shifty salesman threatened the family with ties to the coroner. Again, infinitely difficult to prove. The town that this took place in (Fayetteville) was (and is) a very small town. Everyone knew everyone. There was a lot of relatives doing business with each other and political corruption was (and is) a big part of this small town. Ok, picture this, George and the salesman are sitting in a bar. The guy pitches his insurance idea to George (who in all likelihood couldnt afford it). George says no and the guy jokingly threatened to burn the house down. Furthermore, if that were a reality and George was threatened to that degree, dont you think the police would have gotten to the bottom of that? Also, after the story got bigger than the local police, the FBI was involved. Dont you think THEY would have had a few questions for the local insurance man?
, this is one of the most compelling and interesting aspects of the story...yes, Fire Chief Morris from all accounts probably wasnt the best Chief the town had seen. Politically appointed, it took him hours to get to the secene and offered various reasons for his delay. While he did get ot he scene, his reports were signed off by the state fire marshall so its not as if it was a one man show. There is much more I would like to learn about this guy and Im focusing a lot of research on him.

Its late now but would enjoy writing more later.

 

[Wyle_E_Coyote]

One thing I haven't seen mentioned about the picture in the magazine article... even today with modern processes, magazines are put together months before publication. The time required would have been much greater in the 40s. To appear in a spring edition of a magazine, the picture was certainly taken long before the fire. Moo

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[Carnifax]

Great point!

 

[Carnifax]

Commando,
Response to your post:

Phone lines were cut...Again, this was in response to a remark someone supposedly made about the phone lines appearing to have been cut. It was never officially certified they were cut by law enforcement. It would seem like that would have been checked out as a source of foul play. Now the legend has become "fact".

A ladder was stolen...The ladder was not stolen. The ladder was rumored to have been moved away from the house where it was supposedly usually kept and moved a distance away. I have a problem with this. "Most" people would not have kept a ladder stored against their house. Ladders are (and were) valuable and would have made for an easy target for thieves or vandals.

The thief was arrested...A thief was arrested for attempting to steal a block and tackle (used to lift heavy objects like an engine) from the garage. This would have been a valuable thing to have in 1945.

Prank phone calls were made...Now we are getting somewhere! Finally something that would have involved other people that could be traced back. From what we know, the call came from a lady in town and to my knowledge it wasnt as much as a prank call as much as a wrong number. I do agree that this was an unusual call in the fact that:

It was late at night
It was Christmas Eve
The call would have had to have the assistance of the operator (operator, give me Fayetteville KLM 025). To that end, there is a "danger" the operator would have listened to the call. This was not an usual practice. If I was an operator working the night shift on Christmas Eve, I would have probably listened in for nothing more than pure boredom.
So if there was some nefarious intent, I would have imagined there would be more anonymous ways to do it knowing that this was a traceable source. Furthermore, I believe the police followed up on this lead.

A man in a car was watching the kids prior to the events. Could be, who knows? Where did this info come from?

A photo of a 9 year old from KY, a letter from the daughter, the daughter in dance class... After the fire George began posting rewards for info about the kids. People came out of the woodwork offering various theories and leads. Many of these leads were followed up on but there are some basic ideas that are difficult for me to wrap my head around...

If the kids were (are) out there, why didnt they make contact with the family? I cant believe any amount of brain washing would have changed this. In all the years, all the leads, all this time not one kid came forward? Not one? The reward at one point was at $20,000.00 (In 1950's dollars). Nobody connected the dots?

Now lets address your theory that the kids were taken in 1945 by the mafia.

Some points...not all of America was under the influence of the mafia. Undoubtedly, the mafia had a presence but it wasnt as if they were everywhere. West Virginia is very rural and would not have been an easy "mark" for the mafia. There was and still is corruption in WV but its largely dominated by the Union. Just because George was born in Italy doesnt automatically mean he was in the mafia.

 

[lgr]

Hello Websleuthers,

I have read through all of the Sodder threads, and I find myself looking at an image of ballet dancers from the "George Sodder sees picture..." thread, post 23. As far as I can tell, no one has really discussed this picture. Instead, the focus was on another picture of ballet dancers. Here is the photo:



This photo is in post #23 of the "George Sodder sees picture..." thread. The picture is of a group of seven ballet dancers, and the girl that looks like Betty is in the back row (upper left of the picture, closest to the female on-looker). I don't know who posted the picture (in 2008), so there is no way I can trace it now, but that little girl resembles Betty.

I'm leaning towards the scenario where the kids were taken prior to the fire and scattered to the four winds. There was very little discussion of the mafia at the time because George and the rest of the family were terrified of them. I think the Janatullo character, who was EVERYWHERE in the incident (the threatening insurance salesman, the co-signer on the house loan, head of the group looking into the event, yadda, yadda, yadda) is the guy behind the whole thing.

What better way to ensure the compliance of a person then to hold half of his family essentially hostage for an indeterminate amount of time?

MOO.

lgr

 

[Ozoner]

Some points...not all of America was under the influence of the mafia. Undoubtedly, the mafia had a presence but it wasnt as if they were everywhere. QUOTE]
There's one major flaw with any theory related to the mafia: The modern mafia exists solely to make money. They succeed by flying under the radar. That was even more true in the 40s & 50s than it is today. They occasionally kill people, usually to keep them from talking. In fact, I knew someone who was killed in a mob hit because he had agreed to turn State's witness in an investigation into illegal gambling.) The idea that they would kidnap five children and leave the parents alive is absurd. Totally absurd. It's coming from people with no knowledge of how the mafia actually operates.

 

[Carnifax]

Your point is understood and well taken. One of the intriguing aspects of this case is that A LOT of things have changed since then; society, technology, families, etc. It's just human nature, we see through the lens of our own life when indeed the view looked a lot different in 1945.

Also I think sometimes we develop a theory and then try and hammer everything else into place. I.E. just because the Sodders were from Italy doesnt necessarily mean they were in the mafia. Just because there was someone in a car outside the house doesnt necessarily mean that person was up to no good. By the same token just because a fire chief declared the kids died in the fire doesnt necessarily made it so.

It's a very difficult case. Until someone invents a time machine I doubt this case will ever be resolved with any degree of accuracy. But that shouldnt stop anyone from trying.

 

[Carnifax]

Ok, here's something else I've been pondering. George puts up the billboard(s) to help find the kids. While the billboards focused on the kids, they were also critical of law enforcement. Why? I can understand the frustration of the situation but I wonder if at some point he realized that he still needed their help in his search.

Furthermore, if someone took the kids/set the fire, why would they "allow" the billboard to stand. The billboard would only raise suspicion. Of course it has been my understanding the mafia often would commit these high profile acts to send a message and maybe to an extent, they didnt care. Maybe their thinking was "Who cares, put up all the billboards you want, it only raises the attention towards you".

Of course the theories never, never end.

 

[scentmama11]

Just read through this entire board. The Sodder Children and what may or may not have happened on that Christmas Eve, 1945, has been something that I've privately researched for years now.

A few things. Question: has there ever been an age-progression done on the photo of young Louis Sodder? I've read that there was one don't but have yet to see that progression photo on the Internet. Have always been curious as to just how much that progression resembles the mysterious "Kentucky Man" photo sent to Jennie many years after the fire.

I, for one, do not believe the children perished that evening. Remains never being found is the obvious reason for my belief but also the many oddities and weird coincidences and sightings afterwards. I've always wondered if maybe all five of the kids went out together to feed the animals that evening and were somehow lured away.. Perhaps by someone that they knew or wouldn't have thought twice about lying to them? Maybe they were outside feeding the animals and/or playing around a bit when the fire started..and the arsonist didn't realize they had not been in the house? Perhaps it was only realized as they were escaping and they saw the kids...and didn't want to have witnesses so they took the kids with them and fled. Obviously this is all pure speculation but just some theories I've thought of as to what could have potentially happened.

 

[antechinusRAWR]

It's been qute a few years since I read all of the threads on this case & I'll admit my position can change depending on which page I'm reading - some of the arguments for their survival can be compelling.

I think it's important to remember though that the scene has *never* been investigated by forensic anthropologists. There's also a potentially innocent explanation for the vertebrae that apparently lacked fire damage - these bones were excavated approx 4 yrs after the fire. **Apologies - this next part is a little graphic - isn't it possible they lacked visible fire exposure because they were protected by adhering tissue that then broke down over the next few years?

I'd be interested to see a modern forensic anthropologists assessment of the potential age range for those vertebrae. The science has come a long way since 1949 - the first real forensic anthropology textbook (see Krogman & Iscan) wasn't even in print until 1962.




Edit typo

 

[Carnifax]

Scent and Ante,
Agreed this is a very compelling story to the point here it is, 70 years later, and debate still continues. One thing I think happens is that we tend to formulate an opinion and then wrap everything around it, ignoring obvious details and facts.

One thing that always grabs me is the fact that it was Christmas Eve. If I wanted to abduct a child(ren), why would I wait until it was guaranteed everyone would be there? I would have many more opportunities instead of this one.

Furthermore, if we want to point to the mafia, isnt the mafia steeped in tradition? Everything Ive read about the mafia is that they have families as well. Wouldnt they want to be with their families as well?

It hard for me to believe that the kids were just out playing in the middle of a brutally cold, Christmas Eve night. Most parents threaten their kids with Santa's absence if they dont stay in bed.

While agreed there was no formal forensics investigation it was b ecause they simply didnt think they needed one. It was decided the kids died and that was it. As soon as the scene became unsecured, the scene was tainted and almost any results found from that point on is going to be tainted. Crazy, isnt it?

Even today, if the scene were excavated, would tell us obviously the yes or no of it but why could not tell how or why. We could only speculate.

One thing that stands out to me is that if you look at the picture of the excavation, I see string and it appears that the dig did progress a few feet down. I've been trying to find out if any more pictures exist from that photo shoot. I have called the Smithsonian about it but they dont have any records of it either.

Its a interesting case and the debate continues.

Dan

 

[Shamrocker99]

I really wish a college would devote a semester to having one of their classes excavate the site of the old house and see what might be found now...it may not show how the died, but if their bodies are there at all!


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[cutter99]

I doubt the Mafia takes breaks for holidays! At least they never did in Philadelphia when I was growing up!

I think one if the reasons the site has not been excavated is it is no longer owned by Sodder decendants and a paved driveway runs over the location where the house burned.

 

[Vivette]

I guess the only way ANYTHING can happen or be found out, is if they would search the place again. If we skip that part we won't ever know the truth. And that's very sad.

I read Jonathan was working on that years ago, but I reckon it never happened. I'm in Amsterdam so I doubt I'll be of any help, but can't you Americans try to get this place searched again? By people who know what they're doing?

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

I believe that if the site was properly excavated and searched the children would be found.

 

[Vivette]

It's the circumstances which make me doubt everything. If the mother hadn't heard anything on the roof, if the bus driver didn't see balls of fire, if the wires hadn't been cut etcetc there would have been no doubt in my mind that the children did perish in the fire. Even though I find it strange nothing was found.

But with all these circumstances adding up, I don't know man. There's still a good chance they did perish in the fire, but I could go either way I guess.

Of course I hope that they did live, but I guess if they would start a new search, there's an 80% chance - in my mind - they would find evidence those kids died in the fire..

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

It's the circumstances which make me doubt everything. If the mother hadn't heard anything on the roof, if the bus driver didn't see balls of fire, if the wires hadn't been cut etcetc there would have been no doubt in my mind that the children did perish in the fire. Even though I find it strange nothing was found.

But with all these circumstances adding up, I don't know man. There's still a good chance they did perish in the fire, but I could go either way I guess.

Of course I hope that they did live, but I guess if they would start a new search, there's an 80% chance - in my mind - they would find evidence those kids died in the fire..

I think they may find they were murdered and then burned.. TBH. Sadly I believe they all perished. I believe people skew what they see to make it fit to what they want to believe.

But I think this has a simple explanation.. It would be nice if someone who do the excavating and found out for sure.

 

[Vivette]

But don't you find it odd, though? That those 5 kids who stayed up -as an exception- were the ones to perish?

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

But don't you find it odd, though? That those 5 kids who stayed up -as an exception- were the ones to perish?

No. I don't. I have read through the case many times and it all comes back to the the most probable outcome. Someone is going to notice 5 kids stolen. Someone is going to find 5 bodies buried somewhere..
The most likely scenario is that the fire burned and burned hot enough to bury them in the wreckage.

 

[Vivette]

I really wish they would start a dig there soon.