WV WV - Sodder Family - 5 children, Christmas eve 1945 - #4

[Falcon500]

I looked into this a little more and being an engineer, I approached it from a statistical point of view.

Out of a total of nine children in the house that night, the chance that the five children who died/disappeared in fire being the exact same five who stayed awake to play with their toys is 0.79%.

That alone tells you that something odd happened between the time the mother went to bed and the fire happened.

How did you come to that conclusion? Please explain your methodology.

 

[SideKick]

Which 4 children are still alive?
Offhand?

 

[Bob1959]

RSBM

JMO, with them living in coal mining territory, old homes having coal chutes into the basement for the coal truck to deliver coal through, and it being winter, it's a reasonable assumption. But there's no evidence that I recall ATM.

I think I read about the two coal stoves being used to heat the house either in the threads here or in an article that was linked here. I'll have to go back through and check.

I found the answer about the coal stoves in the house. There were actually three. One in the kitchen, one in the office, and one in the living room. And the Fire Marshal's report page (I am attempting to attach here specifically calls them coal stoves. So you were right about that TracyLynn. See the attached high lighted document.

 

[cutter99]

That is an interesting document. Bones of a 16-17 year old child that had not been exposed to fire??? Doesn't that lead to more questions than answers?

Thanks Bob! I am really enjoying your posts!

 

[jmix]

This is not a difficult case and certainly not one full of intrigue.

I've read quite a bit about it in the past few days and can state that the house burned down. How? I don't know and apparently no one made any effort to find out back in 1945.

The five children who died were incinerated. If you have not seen human remains after a fire then you need to visualize a chicken or other animal that was left on the grill way too long. That sounds disrespectful but that is how it is.

An incompetent fire chief who could not even drive a fire engine made a cursory inspection on Christmas morning and then went back to his Christmas dinner. No wonder that he didn't find anything. The husband used a bulldozer and covered the site four days after the fire! Any competent fire investigator would have never allowed that especially after five people were presumed to have died.

How in the world can any sane person speculate that five children miraculously escaped the fire only to be kidnapped while five other people escaped the fire? That is just ridiculous.

I believe that the husband and wife spent their remaining years covering up for what they believed was their own failure to save their children by making up stories and other such nonsense.

The children are where they died: in the house in question.

That's the most parsimonious answer to this "mystery."
Why?

1. The fire department did claim to have seen some skeletal remains after the fire which they did not retrieve.
2. No one (other than the family) is claiming to have seen the children anywhere AFTER the fire
3. Taking five small children from a house and then setting it on fire without attracting any attention (especially at night) would be nearly impossible.
4. Taking children after they know their own names is exceptionally difficult as at least one child would have claimed to be someone else, assuming that they were alive.
5. The father burying the remains of the house makes little rational sense. Even his insurance adjusters (assuming that they didn't own the property outright) would have assumed arson if something of this nature occurred
6. The fact that the family is looking elsewhere besides the site of the fire (which should be the FIRST place explored) demonstrates that even they suspect that the father's actions were premature. Or that they harbor strong feelings of guilt about not keeping the children safe in the first place.

I'm a huge fan of the former NBC/CBS television program "Unsolved Mysteries". Unfortunately that series (like story) had one huge flaw: Most of the stories were not "mysteries."

The majority were/are:

• The result of sloppy investigative work
• Families not being able to deal with the most likely answers to obvious situations
• Situations which were as they appeared to be

This was a tragic fire that resulted in the deaths of five human beings. If the site of the fire were excavated even today, it's a virtual certainty that bone matter and teeth could be found that would resolve what happened to the missing occupants of the home

 

[TracyLynnS]

I also believe the children died in the fire. Even the family accepted this explanation at the time. IIRC, the only reason they started to believe they had been abducted was a couple years later, when Mr. Sodder saw a photo of a little NY girl in a magazine that looked like one of his missing daughters.

That's when the kidnap theory got started and they began looking all over the country for the children.

---
O/T

Hi jmix! I'm also a big UM fan, and discuss the show over at sitcomsonline under the same username I have here. Nice to see you! :wave:

 

[Bob1959]

Actually, no. they started to dis-believe the children had died after they found out that the fire chief had lied about actually finding remains in the fire. See the attached pages for the original story.

 

[Bob1959]

"Originally Posted by Falcon500 View Post
This is not a difficult case and certainly not one full of intrigue.

I've read quite a bit about it in the past few days and can state that the house burned down. How? I don't know and apparently no one made any effort to find out back in 1945.

The five children who died were incinerated. If you have not seen human remains after a fire then you need to visualize a chicken or other animal that was left on the grill way too long. That sounds disrespectful but that is how it is.

An incompetent fire chief who could not even drive a fire engine made a cursory inspection on Christmas morning and then went back to his Christmas dinner. No wonder that he didn't find anything. The husband used a bulldozer and covered the site four days after the fire! Any competent fire investigator would have never allowed that especially after five people were presumed to have died.

How in the world can any sane person speculate that five children miraculously escaped the fire only to be kidnapped while five other people escaped the fire? That is just ridiculous.

I believe that the husband and wife spent their remaining years covering up for what they believed was their own failure to save their children by making up stories and other such nonsense."

Falcon 500 you are very judgmental about people you have never met and it appears you are basing judgments and conclusions on a knowledge of about 1% of the facts. Although you are entitled to your opinion, I would suggest thinking it through a little more before judging someone as "making up stories" about the death of their children. Also, your statement of the facts is very questionable and I don't know where you get you information from but you obviously know nothing about this area and the people.

 

[hot cawfeee]

Good Morning----I just found this thread this morning (when searching for something else). Its fascinating---cannot wait to read as much as is still available.

Fast question-------Was this a very small town??? One where everyone knows and is related to thru blood or marriage??? I ask b/c perhaps investigation was "deliberately" done slip-shod. I see the Mafia/intimidation theory. Torch the house to either draw people out or not---your point is made either way.

 

[Bob1959]

Good Morning----I just found this thread this morning (when searching for something else). Its fascinating---cannot wait to read as much as is still available.

Fast question-------Was this a very small town??? One where everyone knows and is related to thru blood or marriage??? I ask b/c perhaps investigation was "deliberately" done slip-shod. I see the Mafia/intimidation theory. Torch the house to either draw people out or not---your point is made either way.

In 1940, West Virginia's population was about 1,900,000. the town of Fayetteville is listed in the census of the same year as having 1,292 people. Although this actually happened about 4 miles from Fayetteville, you get the idea of the size of the town. The Sodders were Italian and many immigrants were brought to this area to work in the coal mines or related industries so there was a smaller "Italian Community" in and around this town and in Fayette County. But, as some historians have written that although many Italians were very poor when they arrived in this country, by their second generations, they assimilated well into the local culture.

The Sodders claim the investigation was not only slip-shod, but it was ignored and some law enforcement agencies refused to investigate because some of the people who could have been connected to the case were "personal friends" of the investigators.

 

[hot cawfeee]

I have read most of first thread---its very interesting!!!!!
Were relatives close by?? Christmas is a family holiday---I wondered what they had done to celebrate----I guess Santa had already come?
The "woman caller" intrigues me as does the fact that Mother did not go upstairs to the attic when there was smoke--she yelled and yelled at the foot of the stairs. I find that curious.
Did the children attend school?

 

[Bob1959]

I have read most of first thread---its very interesting!!!!!
Were relatives close by?? Christmas is a family holiday---I wondered what they had done to celebrate----I guess Santa had already come?
The "woman caller" intrigues me as does the fact that Mother did not go upstairs to the attic when there was smoke--she yelled and yelled at the foot of the stairs. I find that curious.
Did the children attend school?

I understand Mrs. Sodder has a sister who lived near by. that is where the family went to get out of the storm that was going on while this fire happened. Mrs. Sodder also had a brother who lived in Montgomery, WV. He arrived at the scene of the fire at 10 AM Christmas day. She also had a sister in FL.

The woman caller was later identified as Mr. Frank Harding. She said she just called the wrong number. I'm still looking into this.

the only thing I can guess about not going upstairs is that at the same time, she was yelling upstairs, she was trying to get to the phone, trying to wake up her daughter, Mariann, and her husband, and grab her 3 year old, Sylvia (who is the only child still alive today)

The children did attend school nearby. they rode a bus to school.

 

[hot cawfeee]

Thank you for the info-----this is really interesting and sad. I have a scenario in my head that may be what happened------the kids were playing with their gifts and were lured outside and away from the house perhaps hours before the fire occurred. They were tld their familiy was dead and would be living with whomever now---or threatened sufficiently to go along with their captors.

Were the boys outdoor chores done prior to the fire???
Did schoolmates ever receive cards, notes from the kids? Even way after the fact?
Was Mariann ever interviewed apart from her parents?

 

[ellemo]

I've read through the posts and have to point out the Mafia theory is just stereotyping and BS. the insurance salesmen supposedly mentioned that Sodder would get his because of things he said about Mussolini. The Italian Mafia did not support Mussolini. He tried to shut them down in Italy because he felt they took some power away from him. Lucky Luciano and the NY Mafia even made a deal with the feds to protect the docks and ships in NY from fascists during WWII.

Some of you will argue that this mafia is not the same as the NY/Chicago syndicates or Five families. So it is important to note that several months before the fire, Mussolini 's body was stoned and dragged through the streets. Most Italians hated Mussolini at this point in history. Yet in this town there were Mussolini-loving fascists willing to kill an entire family?

Blaming the Mafia in this case is the same as blaming a random black guy for a car jacking. And the Mussolini comment was concocted to give the "authenticity " to the threat. MOO

It does sound like it could be arson, especially since the cars weren't working and the ladder was gone. But I don't think the Mafia can be blamed. I believe the kids died in the fire. The mother woke up three times that night but didn't hear 5 kids being forced away from the house? I think that kids fell asleep later than everyone else, were in a different and deeper phase of sleep than those who had been to bed earlier and didn't wake up in time. Or: they were in the same room so perhaps those rooms got a lot more smoke more quickly than other areas of the house. Either way it is not at all uncommon for some people to survive a fire and others to perish.

I think the bones were likely there buried in the rubble of the house. The house did burn for 8 hours, giving time for the floors to collapse and debris and bones to fall into the basement or crevices where they were not able to be spotted easier. If a better search had been done, I believe bones would have been found, but the father bulldozed it only days after the fire. Even today it can take time for a fire to be cleared our, and that is with 60 years of advancement in knowledge, equipment and techniques.

 

[hot cawfeee]

ellemo----I wondered if something had happened b/c of Union trouble----one thing that sticks out to me is the difficulty in having a trucking company during WW2 with gas rationing. Unless his company was deemed vital to the war effort, then it would have been terribly difficult to get gas.--IMO of course.

 

[Bob1959]

I've read through the posts and have to point out the Mafia theory is just stereotyping and BS. the insurance salesmen supposedly mentioned that Sodder would get his because of things he said about Mussolini. The Italian Mafia did not support Mussolini. He tried to shut them down in Italy because he felt they took some power away from him. Lucky Luciano and the NY Mafia even made a deal with the feds to protect the docks and ships in NY from fascists during WWII.

Some of you will argue that this mafia is not the same as the NY/Chicago syndicates or Five families. So it is important to note that several months before the fire, Mussolini 's body was stoned and dragged through the streets. Most Italians hated Mussolini at this point in history. Yet in this town there were Mussolini-loving fascists willing to kill an entire family?

Blaming the Mafia in this case is the same as blaming a random black guy for a car jacking. And the Mussolini comment was concocted to give the "authenticity " to the threat. MOO

It does sound like it could be arson, especially since the cars weren't working and the ladder was gone. But I don't think the Mafia can be blamed. I believe the kids died in the fire. The mother woke up three times that night but didn't hear 5 kids being forced away from the house? I think that kids fell asleep later than everyone else, were in a different and deeper phase of sleep than those who had been to bed earlier and didn't wake up in time. Or: they were in the same room so perhaps those rooms got a lot more smoke more quickly than other areas of the house. Either way it is not at all uncommon for some people to survive a fire and others to perish.

I think the bones were likely there buried in the rubble of the house. The house did burn for 8 hours, giving time for the floors to collapse and debris and bones to fall into the basement or crevices where they were not able to be spotted easier. If a better search had been done, I believe bones would have been found, but the father bulldozed it only days after the fire. Even today it can take time for a fire to be cleared our, and that is with 60 years of advancement in knowledge, equipment and techniques.

Yes, that's right. there were Mussolini-loving people willing to kill an entire family living in this area. you need to go back and look at history, not about Italy, but what was going on here at the time. I was surprised also to find that there was a large italian population here that still supported Mussolini. It's not a matter of debate or what your opinion is, It happened and it took years for people here to change thier mind about Mussolini, as it did in Germany for people to change thier mind about Hitler. At the time this happened, Mussolini had only been dead for about eight months.

Are you aware that in the 1930's Mussolini established an office of the Italian government here in West Virginia that was located in Fairmont, WV in order to look after the needs of italians living here? And that man appointed to be that representative spent lots of time in the area of this fire mostlty dealing with coal mining strikes and labor union issues?

You are entitled to your opinion, but you don't know what you are talking about concerning a mafia connection here. And its not about a mafia that you see on TV. It was then more of a localized mutual benefit organization.

you are also unaware of the extent of the investigation into the fire and the excavation(s) performed at the site and how that was handled and how evidence was obviously planted in the ashes of the fire.

Go back and start at the beginning of the threads related to this case If you priint out ALL the thread associated here, it will number well over 2000 pages. that's what I'm doing to learn all I can before I offer ANY opinions. All I have posted so far are facts associated with the minute amounts of actual evidence that still exists.

 

[ellemo]

Perhaps it was arson and perhaps it was personal motive or hate crime, or maybe it was an electrical fire or maybe a coal cinder ignited; I don't known the cause but I have read a decent amount of the threads and nothing in them leads me to believe that there was some great conspiracy of Italians to kill this family.

But most importantly, there is nothing that leads me to believe that 5 relatively old children were taken unseen/unheard from a home and never seen from again. Occams Razor should be applied here and the simplest explanation is the children died in the fire and the remains just weren't found. AI have read quite a few internet articles and have not read anything that suggested a trained archeologist excavated the site. The father did with some help and that leaves me convinced that they bones are probably there somewhere.

I have not seen anything in the threads yet about an Italian government office in West Virginia and couldn't find anything about it in the web. I would be interested in learning about it and how it fared in the 1940s when the gov't was watching, arresting and even interning some Italians.

 

[ellemo]

I just discovered Stacey Horn's blog http://www.echonyc.com/~horn/stacy/?p=80 and her post/ interview whit experts explains exactly many of the points I made as to why I think the kids died in the fire. Excellent post. It also mentions that john's initial statement to the authorities was that he shook the children to wake them but later changed the statements. It mentions the improper/ very short search after the fire, contamination of the scene and poorly done excavation years later.

The details in this blog make much more sense (Occums Razor applied here again) then some conspiracy of Mussolini lovers.

Arson is still a possibility; I just don't see a conspiracy or the kids having survived the fire.

 

[Bob1959]

This is a newspaper article from the Charleston Gazette from November 1948. it mentions that there are arrests imminent in the Sodder case. But there were no arrests ever made. It would be interesting to know who was going to be arrested and what for. We know from the date of the article it was not Lonnie Johnson who pled guilty for stealing two chain hoists from Mr Sodders garage because that happened right after the fire.

And the article discusses the search effort that was being made at the time.

There is another article that mentions arrests in the case from the year 1950. I plan to try to dig those out tomorrow.

 

[Bob1959]

sorry that second page is upside down