Found Deceased WY - Gabby Petito, Grand Teton National Park #86
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Kristin Esq.
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I watched part of JB's livestream last night on this, and the comment from Bertolino made sense to me as an attorney. I don't remember his exact words, but the FBI had the Burn letter. If she really wrote in there that she would give him a shovel to bury the body, wouldn't the FBI had done something? I really think that we need more context to know the truth, or maybe just be able to see the letter ourselves. MOO.
If there was something like "Even if you were a murderer, I'd help you as my dear son by bringing you a shovel", they can't do much criminally with that, esp as it was written before the death of Gabby.
Kristin Esq.
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I'm not taking Bertolino's word that it was written before Gabby's death. But you're right, that is not sufficient. I want proof that it was written before her death. It would be very strange to write a letter before her death that said burn after you read or whatever the phrase was. MOO
wnk
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I'm not understanding how it's any better if she wrote it before or after GP's death. Is there a legal issue I'm overlooking?
Is "hey, if you need to get rid of her, I'll bring you a shovel!" (showing willingness to help cover up a future crime) really any better than "oh, you got rid of her? I'll bring you a shovel!" (showing willingness to help cover up a past crime)?
Kristin Esq.
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It goes to the legal issue at hand for the lawsuit. If it was before, then it does nothing to show that RL knew that BL killed GP. It just shows her willingness to cover up a crime. If it was after, then it bolster's the argument that the L's knew that GP was dead when they made the statement that they hope she is found and brought back to her family. MOO.
LinasK
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Why not? Why isn't that an accessory to a crime?
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You can't be an accessory to a crime unless you actually commit the crime.
Brian's mom never gave Brian a shovel way across the country, Brian didn't even bury the body.
If the letter was written after Brian committed murder the lawsuit can try to use that as evidence that the parent's knew what Brian had done and were negligent in pretending not to know anything and not reporting it, then helping him cover his tracks by letting him stay with them, which gave him the opportunity to get away and commit suicide rather than be brought to justice.
It's all about - did the parents know what their son had done? Did they lie to Gabby's parents in pretending not to know? If so, it means they were covering for their son. Covering up a murder.
Not enough for criminal charges but it could meet the standard for guilty in a civil suit. A civil suit requires less proof than a criminl case.
2024 Guide to Civil Case vs. Criminal Case | Lawrina
Learn the Difference Between a Civil Case vs. Criminal Case | Examples of Civil & Criminal Cases | Read More on Lawrina.
lawrina.com
The Standard of Proof Required
There is also a disparity in the standard of proof for a suspect to be charged with a civil lawsuit vs. a criminal lawsuit. For an individual to be convicted of a crime, it must be proven “beyond reasonable doubt” that they are responsible. There will be a jury in almost all instances to help ensure fair and reasonable justice.
However, civil cases have lower standards and are easier to prove as they require less evidence. For a civil case to be proven true, only “preponderance of evidence” is required, meaning there is over a 50 percent chance that the claim is true based on the evidence presented. The majority of civil cases will be decided on the judge’s verdict. This difference is mainly in place due to the varying degrees of punishment associated with both, which brings us to our next point.........
borndem
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Just saw this, but it was in Vanity Fair several months ago. It's a long but very good read.
---------------------------------
By Kathleen Hale
Illustration by Hokyoung Kim
June 30, 2022
When 23-year-old Brian Laundrie and his 22-year-old girlfriend Gabby Petito went hiking, Brian insisted on walking barefoot. If it were up to him, Brian said, he wouldn’t even own shoes. He’d become intent on “living with less” and encouraged Gabby to join him in a more natural lifestyle. He wanted her to “build up” her feet so that she, too, could ditch her shoes at the campsite.
Sometimes Gabby humored him and slipped off her shoes during their walks. But she would inevitably put them back on. The grounds of the national parks were blisteringly hot and rife with black widow spiders.
[...]
One day, about five weeks into their road trip (1), Gabby and Brian were hiking up three miles of steep terrain to the Delicate Arch, a rock formation in Utah’s Arches National Park. As advised by the park’s website, they had set out early in the morning to try to beat the heat. But by 6 a.m., it was already 91 degrees, and the day was only getting hotter. Despite Brian’s hard-earned calluses, his bare feet likely burned.
Gabby pranced beside him in her cushioned yet breathable REI hiking shoes. By 7 a.m., a small crowd was gathered around the Delicate Arch, admiring the view.
[...]
A man in the crowd called up to Gabby, asking how she liked her REI shoes.
Gabby got the sense that the man worked for REI, which was exciting. She dreamed of traveling full-time in her little Ford van, and other people had shown it was possible, subsisting on sponsorships from brands just like REI, documenting their voyages in converted buses, with children and dogs in tow.
[...]
While Brian stood at the edge of the crowd, likely waiting for someone to ask him how he’d hiked all that way barefoot, Gabby launched into a well-received presentation to everyone below about how “awesome” her shoes were. Later, REI would reach out to her directly, saying they hoped the rest of her hike had gone well (2).
Brian was not as supportive. Lately, he’d been trying to convince Gabby that she couldn’t make a website by herself. Sometimes he made her feel like she couldn’t do anything right (3). But now, all at once, she seemed to be on the right path.
Maybe Brian didn’t know everything.
[...]
Once Gabby started thinking about it, there were so many things she had yet to do. She would learn to knot her hair in an easy chignon. She would tattoo “so it goes” on the inside of her elbow. She would dress her future children in tiny shirts that said “Happy,” and take them to the beach at sunset, and hold them against her chest to keep them warm. She was only 22 years old.
Her life was just getting started.
-----------------------------------------
Much, much more here. It's a long article, but very good -- full of things that make us smile, as well as those that make us shake our heads with sorrow and anger:
----------------------------------------
www.vanityfair.com
---------------------------------
Gabby Petito’s Life With—And Death By—Brian Laundrie
Forensically examining Instagram accounts, interviews, and police reports, author Kathleen Hale reconstructs their relationship, and ultimately Petito’s murder.By Kathleen Hale
Illustration by Hokyoung Kim
June 30, 2022
When 23-year-old Brian Laundrie and his 22-year-old girlfriend Gabby Petito went hiking, Brian insisted on walking barefoot. If it were up to him, Brian said, he wouldn’t even own shoes. He’d become intent on “living with less” and encouraged Gabby to join him in a more natural lifestyle. He wanted her to “build up” her feet so that she, too, could ditch her shoes at the campsite.
Sometimes Gabby humored him and slipped off her shoes during their walks. But she would inevitably put them back on. The grounds of the national parks were blisteringly hot and rife with black widow spiders.
[...]
One day, about five weeks into their road trip (1), Gabby and Brian were hiking up three miles of steep terrain to the Delicate Arch, a rock formation in Utah’s Arches National Park. As advised by the park’s website, they had set out early in the morning to try to beat the heat. But by 6 a.m., it was already 91 degrees, and the day was only getting hotter. Despite Brian’s hard-earned calluses, his bare feet likely burned.
Gabby pranced beside him in her cushioned yet breathable REI hiking shoes. By 7 a.m., a small crowd was gathered around the Delicate Arch, admiring the view.
[...]
A man in the crowd called up to Gabby, asking how she liked her REI shoes.
Gabby got the sense that the man worked for REI, which was exciting. She dreamed of traveling full-time in her little Ford van, and other people had shown it was possible, subsisting on sponsorships from brands just like REI, documenting their voyages in converted buses, with children and dogs in tow.
[...]
While Brian stood at the edge of the crowd, likely waiting for someone to ask him how he’d hiked all that way barefoot, Gabby launched into a well-received presentation to everyone below about how “awesome” her shoes were. Later, REI would reach out to her directly, saying they hoped the rest of her hike had gone well (2).
Brian was not as supportive. Lately, he’d been trying to convince Gabby that she couldn’t make a website by herself. Sometimes he made her feel like she couldn’t do anything right (3). But now, all at once, she seemed to be on the right path.
Maybe Brian didn’t know everything.
[...]
Once Gabby started thinking about it, there were so many things she had yet to do. She would learn to knot her hair in an easy chignon. She would tattoo “so it goes” on the inside of her elbow. She would dress her future children in tiny shirts that said “Happy,” and take them to the beach at sunset, and hold them against her chest to keep them warm. She was only 22 years old.
Her life was just getting started.
-----------------------------------------
Much, much more here. It's a long article, but very good -- full of things that make us smile, as well as those that make us shake our heads with sorrow and anger:
----------------------------------------
Gabby Petito’s Life With—And Death By—Brian Laundrie
Forensically examining Instagram accounts, interviews, and police reports, author Kathleen Hale reconstructs their relationship, and ultimately Petito’s murder.
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Are there appeal rights in civil court? I assume so, but don't think I've ever followed a civil case that went forward with an appeal.You can't be an accessory to a crime unless you actually commit the crime.
Brian's mom never gave Brian a shovel way across the country, Brian didn't even bury the body.
If the letter was written after Brian committed murder the lawsuit can try to use that as evidence that the parent's knew what Brian had done and were negligent in pretending not to know anything and not reporting it, then helping him cover his tracks by letting him stay with them, which gave him the opportunity to get away and commit suicide rather than be brought to justice.
It's all about - did the parents know what their son had done? Did they lie to Gabby's parents in pretending not to know? If so, it means they were covering for their son. Covering up a murder.
Not enough for criminal charges but it could meet the standard for guilty in a civil suit. A civil suit requires less proof than a criminl case.
2024 Guide to Civil Case vs. Criminal Case | Lawrina
Learn the Difference Between a Civil Case vs. Criminal Case | Examples of Civil & Criminal Cases | Read More on Lawrina.
The Standard of Proof Required
There is also a disparity in the standard of proof for a suspect to be charged with a civil lawsuit vs. a criminal lawsuit. For an individual to be convicted of a crime, it must be proven “beyond reasonable doubt” that they are responsible. There will be a jury in almost all instances to help ensure fair and reasonable justice.
However, civil cases have lower standards and are easier to prove as they require less evidence. For a civil case to be proven true, only “preponderance of evidence” is required, meaning there is over a 50 percent chance that the claim is true based on the evidence presented. The majority of civil cases will be decided on the judge’s verdict. This difference is mainly in place due to the varying degrees of punishment associated with both, which brings us to our next point.........
Edited to complete post
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I EXPECT DOUGHNUTS
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How Courts Work
In a civil case, either party may appeal to a higher court. In a criminal case, only the defendant has a right to an appeal in most states. (Some states give the prosecution a limited right to appeal to determine certain points of law. These appeals usually occur before the actual trial begins. Appeals by the prosecution after a verdict are not normally allowed because of the prohibition in the U. S. Constitution against double jeopardy, or being tried twice for the same crime.)
LinasK
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Yet intent is all that's necessary to charge crimes like attempted murder or attempted robbery- not the actual success of doing so.You can't be an accessory to a crime unless you actually commit the crime.
Brian's mom never gave Brian a shovel way across the country, Brian didn't even bury the body.
If the letter was written after Brian committed murder the lawsuit can try to use that as evidence that the parent's knew what Brian had done and were negligent in pretending not to know anything and not reporting it, then helping him cover his tracks by letting him stay with them, which gave him the opportunity to get away and commit suicide rather than be brought to justice.
It's all about - did the parents know what their son had done? Did they lie to Gabby's parents in pretending not to know? If so, it means they were covering for their son. Covering up a murder.
Not enough for criminal charges but it could meet the standard for guilty in a civil suit. A civil suit requires less proof than a criminl case.
2024 Guide to Civil Case vs. Criminal Case | Lawrina
Learn the Difference Between a Civil Case vs. Criminal Case | Examples of Civil & Criminal Cases | Read More on Lawrina.
The Standard of Proof Required
There is also a disparity in the standard of proof for a suspect to be charged with a civil lawsuit vs. a criminal lawsuit. For an individual to be convicted of a crime, it must be proven “beyond reasonable doubt” that they are responsible. There will be a jury in almost all instances to help ensure fair and reasonable justice.
However, civil cases have lower standards and are easier to prove as they require less evidence. For a civil case to be proven true, only “preponderance of evidence” is required, meaning there is over a 50 percent chance that the claim is true based on the evidence presented. The majority of civil cases will be decided on the judge’s verdict. This difference is mainly in place due to the varying degrees of punishment associated with both, which brings us to our next point.........
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I EXPECT DOUGHNUTS
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I can sit in my house with intent to go out and commit a crime but it's not illegal unless I actually make the attempt to do so.
Roberta Laundrie could sit in her house with the intent to give her son a shovel but it's not a crime unless she actually made the attempt to do so.
She never gave her son a shovel, Brian never used a shovel to bury a body.
If she offered the shovel after the murder all it shows is that maybe Brian told her what he had done.
But what he had done is commit murder across the Country far away from his mother then he left the body without using a shovel to hide it. RL had nothing to do with it.
Even offering a shovel after the murder doesn't prove anything. Her attorneys can say it was just a figure of speech. Just a weird thing to say to her son showing support for him but she didn't mean she would literally help him bury a body.
No way to prove that Brian told his parents what he did unless he told them and they told other people about it. Getting other witnesses involved.
I don't see how Gabby's parents can win their civil case. I wish they could, but there has to be proof that Brian told his parents what he had done and the parents hid it from Gabby's family.
LinasK
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She made the offer. To me it oroves both that she had knowledge of his crime and the intent to help him cover it up.
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I EXPECT DOUGHNUTS
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First let me say I like your posts and appreciate your opinions even if we may not agree on something. I also want to say that maybe Gabby's family has a better chance of winning their lawsuit than I had originally thought. I will explain.
I agree with you except for one big detail.
RL's defense says that RL wrote the letter offering the shovel BEFORE Brian committed murder. If true, this means she had no knowledge of the crime because there was no crime and then of course no crime to cover up.
However, the Petito's attorney says:
“It’s a pretty interesting, pretty odd letter,” attorney Patrick Riley said. There is no date on the letter, but it appears that the letter was written within the time that Petito was murdered and Brian Laundrie committed suicide.
If it is true that the letter was written AFTER Brian committed his crime against Gabby, then I agree that it is possible that RL had knowledge of his crime with the intent to help him cover it up.
However, there is a difference between RL having the intent to help cover up her son's evil crime and her actually acting upon that intent.
Making the offer to help someone cover a crime is not the same as actually doing something to help them cover the crime.
BUT - if the Petito's attorney can prove the letter was written AFTER Brian's evil crime against Gabby then he might be able to prove to a jury that RL did indeed not just have intent to cover the crime, but that she actually did ACT on her intent and did actually DO something to cover the crime.
What?
By lying to LE and lying to the Petito family that she didn't know anything.
Lying about it is the same as trying to cover it up. It shows she was trying to help her son cover his crime. By doing this, it caused undue emotional distress and pain to Gabby's family.
Convince the jury or judge of this and the Petito's might win their Case and might be awarded punitive damages.
What Are Punitive Damages? Purpose, Cap, Calculation, and Example
Punitive damages are legal recompense that a defendant found guilty of committing a wrong or offense is ordered to pay on top of compensatory damages.
Punitive damages are the payment that a defendant found guilty of committing a wrong or offense is ordered to pay on top of compensatory damages. They are awarded when compensatory damages—the money given to the injured party—are deemed to be insufficient.
Punitive damages go beyond compensating the aggrieved party. They are specifically designed to punish defendants whose conduct is considered grossly negligent or intentional. Punitive damages are also referred to as exemplary damages as they are intended to set an example to deter others from committing similar acts.
Last edited:
GRT
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Thank you for your posts. It's obvious you understand the legal process and how a civil action is different from a criminal action.First let me say I like your posts and appreciate your opinions even if we may not agree on something. I also want to say that maybe Gabby's family has a better chance of winning their lawsuit than I had originally thought. I will explain.
I agree with you except for one big detail.
RL's defense says that RL wrote the letter offering the shovel BEFORE Brian committed murder. If true, this means she had no knowledge of the crime because there was no crime and then of course no crime to cover up.
However, the Petito's attorney says:
“It’s a pretty interesting, pretty odd letter,” attorney Patrick Riley said. There is no date on the letter, but it appears that the letter was written within the time that Petito was murdered and Brian Laundrie committed suicide.
If it is true that the letter was written AFTER Brian committed his crime against Gabby, then I agree that it is possible that RL had knowledge of his crime with the intent to help him cover it up.
However, there is a difference between RL having the intent to help cover up her son's evil crime and her actually acting upon that intent.
Making the offer to help someone cover a crime is not the same as actually doing something to help them cover the crime.
BUT - if the Petito's attorney can prove the letter was written AFTER Brian's evil crime against Gabby then he might be able to prove to a jury that RL did indeed not just have intent to cover the crime, but that she actually did ACT on her intent and did actually DO something to cover the crime.
What?
By lying to LE and lying to the Petito family that she didn't know anything.
Lying about it is the same as trying to cover it up. It shows she was trying to help her son cover his crime. By doing this, it caused undue emotional distress and pain to Gabby's family.
Convince the jury or judge of this and the Petito's might win their Case and might be awarded punitive damages.
What Are Punitive Damages? Purpose, Cap, Calculation, and Example
Punitive damages are legal recompense that a defendant found guilty of committing a wrong or offense is ordered to pay on top of compensatory damages.www.investopedia.com
Punitive damages are the payment that a defendant found guilty of committing a wrong or offense is ordered to pay on top of compensatory damages. They are awarded when compensatory damages—the money given to the injured party—are deemed to be insufficient.
Punitive damages go beyond compensating the aggrieved party. They are specifically designed to punish defendants whose conduct is considered grossly negligent or intentional. Punitive damages are also referred to as exemplary damages as they are intended to set an example to deter others from committing similar acts.
My opinion at this point is that the Petitos are treading on thin ice. Perhaps, as you say, they will be able to get a judge/jury to award punitive damages, but I think a very human factor to all of this is being forgotten.
The Laundries are victims, too. They too lost a child, and they have the additional burden now of being blamed for what he did.
But, the parent/child bond is strong and demanding parents throw their children under the proverbial bus is crossing an ethical line, in my opinion. That almost says that we owe our allegiance to the law rather than to our families. That brings up a whole slew of dystopian images.
This is JMOO, but I think the extraordinary publicity this case generated put an undue burden on the Petitos--leaving them feeling as though they were expected to maintain a modicum of publicity. So, they're doing the only things they can think of--filing suits.
But, in the long run, I think all this publicity has hurt them, because it didn't allow them to privately grieve as most parents get to do.
If there was something they could achieve--on a grand scale--such as having a law passed in Gabby's name that would protect other young women--I would support that.
JMOO, but I think what's happening now could result in more pain than healing.
MOO
I'm sure people differ on whether they think they would have a duty to be an informant under those circumstances. But legally we rarely have a duty to turn someone in for illegal behavior no matter what the behavior is. Not turning someone in doesn't equate to being an accessory to a crime.
JMO
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