17-yo Teen Trayvon Martin Shot to Death by Neighborhood Watch Captain #7

[Inabsentia]

Was it a direct quote from Lee, or was it a paraphrase by reporters?

Beats me, you are the one who brought it, and the victim's parents, up. I just stated an opinion about what you said. I quoted your post.

 

[Deleted member 39678]

The police report describes the shirt as only having dampness and grass on the back....surely if they noted that small detail they would have noted the front being stained with blood. SURELY the LE officer would not be so incompetent as to note "dampness" but NOT blood!!!

jmo

I don't know if the officer is competent or not. I what to know if it's a fact that GZ had no blood on his clothes.

 

[jjenny]

So your saying we don't know if GZ had any of Trayvon's blood on him or not?

They took his clothes so the blood could be tested for.

 

[m00c0w]

I think anyone without a medical background can check for shock by looking at their eyes. Their pupils are fixed. jmo

Blown/fixed pupils would be symptomatic of a cerebral edema, a stroke, aneurism, or many other things. I've never heard it was an indicator of shock in and of itself.

ETA: There are varying levels of shock. I don't think anyone has implied that he was to the point of needing intravenous drugs.

 

[HiHater]

They took his clothes so the blood could be tested for.

I have never read this, do you happen to have a link? Please and thanks! (Or if you can point me to another thread this was established in?)

 

[raeann]

they took his clothes so the blood could be tested for.

link????

 

[Sensei]

I'm well aware of what shock is and how to treat it. Are you claiming that shock is always easy to identify, and that it's not considered a dangerous condition because of how easy it is to miss?

Convoluted question, but I think I know what you are saying, I am saying for a trained EMT it is NOT easy to miss shock. It is easy to diagnose, not as easy to treat. Shock can be one of several different types Anaphylactic, Neutrogenic, Cardiogenic, Hypovolemic, or Septic, and none of them are difficult to miss. The charactaristics of shock are inadequate blood flow through the body, and if the caregiver misses it for more than a few minutes the low blood flow through the body will make it self known, the person will pass out, but skin color and pulse rate will give it away if you are paying attention and don't have a pressure cuff. Also the extremeties will become cold from lack of blood flow.

 

[LambChop]

I agree with that, but under stand your ground law, it's not necessary for him to have serious injuries in order to claim self-defense.

I think the question is GZ is claiming to have serious injuries caused by TM that he felt his life was in danger and he felt justified shooting TM in the chest. If this is true and given the price tag on his head to be "brought in" (for what I'm not sure) I'd be showing those pictures to CNN, ABC, CBC and yep, even gasp..... NG. jmo

 

[Footwarrior]

Trayvon may have cut through an opening in the wall that surrounds the gated community called The Retreat at Twin Lakes, where there are only bushes separating the back swale from the street.

http://www.thegrio.com/specials/tra...timeline-leaves-many-unanswered-questions.php

The animation video linked on that page misses a lot of the details of this case. Such as Martin was shot on a path behind the condos, not in a front yard. We also know that Zimmerman called the police while Martin is still approaching, not when he passes the truck.

 

[rotterdam]

:waitasec:

http://abcnews.go.com/US/trayvon-ma...n-manslaughter/story?id=16011674#.T3IVXdU_LQ2

Red/bold by me...

So the S.A office headed by Norman Wolfinger(who has been removed from the case now) is the actual culprit and the one who decided not to charge GZ.
Against the opinion of one LE investigator. Nice to know.

 

[Sensei]

I agree with that, but under stand your ground law, it's not necessary for him to have serious injuries in order to claim self-defense.

it is against an unarmed person, unless he is prepared to say that simply the way Trayvon looked at him made him afraid for his life and that this fear was reasonable....It is not necessary to have injuries if someone is coming at you with a knife, and you shoot them, but I don't think you can convince anyone that GZ was simply afraid for his life with no indication that Trayvon ever laid a hand on him, and no injuries, so no matter what you claim under this law that simply does not apply here.

 

[oh_gal]

RBBM
Link supporting your assertions, please.

http://gma.yahoo.com/trayvon-martin...ms-school-151838644--abc-news-topstories.html

I have looked for the article I read (yesterday, I think) stating that TM was involved in a fight/fights, but it may have been removed if it was not true. Like anyone here, my opinions are based upon information I see and/or hear. Some may be found to be true, some not -- as we are clearly seeing with two differing allegations of what happened on that night.

 

[Isabelle]

That would be at a certain stage of hypovolemic shock. No one has implied he was that far gone.

I know. I wasn't referring to anyone in particular, just stating a symptom.

 

[m00c0w]

In at least three police interrogations and a videotaped interview, Zimmerman told police he was on his way back to his truck when he was approached from behind by Trayvon, Lee said. Zimmerman said Trayvon attacked him. In fear for his life, Zimmerman said, he reached for the Kel Tek 9mm semi-automatic handgun he kept in a holster on his waist and fired.

http://www.kansascity.com/2012/03/21/3505774/commission-votes-no-confidence.html

And there goes that misconception.

 

[flourish]

http://gma.yahoo.com/trayvon-martin...ms-school-151838644--abc-news-topstories.html

I have looked for the article I read (yesterday, I think) stating that TM was involved in a fight/fights, but it may have been removed if it was not true. Like anyone here, my opinions are based upon information I see and/or hear. Some may be found to be true, some not -- as we are clearly seeing with two differing allegations of what happened on that night.

Thank you for your response.
Yep, not seeing it in that article.

Must have been a rumor or unverified. Smashing.

 

[Isabelle]

The police report describes the shirt as only having dampness and grass on the back....surely if they noted that small detail they would have noted the front being stained with blood. SURELY the LE officer would not be so incompetent as to note "dampness" but NOT blood!!!

jmo

And I would think GZ would have been in fairly close proximity to Trayvon to fire the gun into Trayvon's chest. I would think this esp in the case of self defense and witnesses saying they saw Trayvon on top of GZ, while there was screaming for help that suddenly stopped when the shot was sounded. He had to have Trayvon's blood on him, we just don't have that information.

 

[jjenny]

it is against an unarmed person, unless he is prepared to say that simply the way Trayvon looked at him made him afraid for his life and that this fear was reasonable....It is not necessary to have injuries if someone is coming at you with a knife, and you shoot them, but I don't think you can convince anyone that GZ was simply afraid for his life with no indication that Trayvon ever laid a hand on him, and no injuries, so no matter what you claim under this law that simply does not apply here.

There is nothing in the law that says a person must have serious injuries to claim self defense.

 

[vlpate]

Third: So much time has passed and it's going to be very close to impossible to find out what really happens unless GZ is totally honest and passes a polygraph on his story. Even if he were to plead guilty and pass a polygraph I don't think we'll truly ever know.

GZ told his story, we don't know what evidence LE has and we don't know whether or not a polygraph was taken. This idea that the cops took GZ to the station, had a cuppa, asked a few questions and let him go (media portrayal), is ridiculous.

Fourth: The cops screwed this up horribly from the beginning, but part of it may be legal. It's egregious dereliction of duty, but is it illegal due to the stand your ground law? If a guy breaks into my house and I shoot him it's a pretty much a slam dunk that I'm in the right. However, I would expect the police to talk to witness' and conduct an investigation into whether or not my story jibed with the facts. If they didn't do that and just took my word for it after a cursory look, they'd be right. I wouldn't shoot someone unless they were breaking into my house.

BEM: This was done....the media seems unaware of it.

This is a totally different circumstance though. You have a killing happening after a 911 call that would lead anyone sane to some tough questions. "Why did you get out of the car?" "Why did you follow him?" "Why did you have a gun on you?" The police say that Zimmerman had wounds and that the facts matched his story. OK, then why not release his entire story and the facts? Where are the pictures of his wounds?

It's being re-investigated.

Fifth: The Black Panthers aren't helping matters in any way, shape or form. They are going against Trayvon's own parents wishes and are taking the focus away from what really matters. The investigation.

Funny thing about that - they're front and center today at a congressional meeting re: hate crimes and racial profiling. :waitasec:

They are also turning a possible vigilante problem into another possible vigilante problem.

I don't get how they are allowed to make public terrorist threats. I mean, if we feel decisions by police are not to our satisfaction, are we now going to be allowed to post wanted posters with a bounty on the heads of the ones that got away? I'm thinking not.

Sixth: With the stand your ground law did they have to arrest him?

This is what makes me think they had clear evidence at the scene or maybe on video, eye witnesses with the same story. All of this happened within 7 minutes. The 911 call lasted 4. Zimmerman had only been off the phone with police for 3 minutes when the first 911 call came in that there was an altercation. Whatever happened, happened almost immediately and Zimmerman did not know where TM was when he hung up with police.

I find it strange that he's taken so long to come forward. Where was he that night? Also, even if TM was on top of him pummeling him that doesn't mean it was self defense for GZ. You can't chase me down for no reason and start hitting me and then when I get the best of you claim you were defending yourself by killing me.

The police know who "John" is, and he sounds exactly like the 911 caller who said there was an altercation outside and he went inside to call police. This indicates to me he probably saw something. It was in front of his porch.
BEM: Zimmerman chased TM down and started hitting him? This is new.

Seventh: We have no idea what Trayvon was thinking. Ask yourself this; If someone was slowly following you in a car as you walked down the street at night and you turned back and didn't recognize them what would you do? A lot of us feel that we should tell our kids that if a stranger is following you or tries to accost you then you should scream as loud as you can and run away. Even if they aren't told that by us, a lot are told by other means. If Trayvon ran he would be doing what a lot of us would do in a similar circumstance.

He did run, but where did he run to? He didn't run home. Zimmerman lost sight of him when he ran - for two minutes he didn't know where he was. Three minutes later someone attacked. Trayvon is 6'3", 160 - Zimmerman 5'9" and heavy - I'm thinking he's not going to pop Trayvon. If he was scared, he should have run the 100 yards home, dialing 911 on the way.

Eighth: This is what should have happened, IMO. As far as I know very little of this occurred. First the cops should have kept everyone away from the crime scene and put up tape around the whole area. From the road to the spot of the killing. Were there footprints that told a story? How could the cops so easily judge who's footprints are who's without measurements and such. Where was the bullet casing? Were there marks in the ground from the gun? If so where? What was the angle of entry for the bullet in Trayvon and how does that match GZ's testimony. What other autopsy results point to or away from his innocence. Since it was raining some of this may have had to wait til the next day.

Special crimes units were called and they taped the area - they have the bullet casing and they have Zimmerman's gun. They did all of this that night.

GZ should have been made to disrobe and have his clothes left to be tested for evidence. They should have booked him on suspicion of murder. (The stand your ground law should be a defense for court, not for the cops to decide.) Then they should have taken pictures of his wounds and interrogated him, fully video'd. He should have been arraigned in front of a judge and bail set. It should then have gone to a grand jury to decide if there was enough evidence to take him to trial.

We don't know if they took his clothes. Of course they interrogated him, and it's likely on video. Why wouldn't they take pictures of his wounds? How many people who should have been arrested have not been arrested - one only has to go as far as the WS boards to answer that question.

Too much of what should be left up to the jury system was left up to a police force with a history of not arresting people who commit crimes against blacks. (I.E. the cops son who beat a homeless man on film, and was shown the film as well as heard witness statements, at the scene, but didn't arrest him on the spot. IIRC, it wasn't until the video hit Youtube and pressure was applied that they arrested him.)

None of the above is Zimmerman's fault.

Finally: It could be that GZ is innocent under the law of Florida. His story may clear things up and sort things out. However, in over a month all we've gotten is stonewalling and excuses from the PD. It has become so bad that even if GZ was right he couldn't get a fair trial.

I don't know about the stonewalling, I know the parents don't accept the decision of a prosecutor and they are trying this in public.
<snip>

The Anderson Cooper video; http://www.cnn.com/video/?hpt=hp_t3#/video/bestoftv/2012/03/27/ac-kth-trayvon-martin-witness.cnn

I watched this yesterday and was blown away by the hyperbole and they misinformation by omission. Deplorable, IMO.

 

[m00c0w]

Convoluted question, but I think I know what you are saying, I am saying for a trained EMT it is NOT easy to miss shock. It is easy to diagnose, not as easy to treat. Shock can be one of several different types Anaphylactic, Neutrogenic, Cardiogenic, Hypovolemic, or Septic, and none of them are difficult to miss. The charactaristics of shock are inadequate blood flow through the body, and if the caregiver misses it for more than a few minutes the low blood flow through the body will make it self known, the person will pass out, but skin color and pulse rate will give it away if you are paying attention and don't have a pressure cuff. Also the extremeties will become cold from lack of blood flow.

Minor shock can rectify itself, though. It says that he was treated on the scene... There's not much you can do for a mild case of shock other than to sit down, calm down, and acclimatize. They could have started an IV, but that may have been overkill. I may be wrong, but generally invasive procedures like that are only done when they have to be done in the field. I'm only speaking from my experience in the military with such things; the civilian world is assuredly different.

 

[Isabelle]

I think anyone without a medical background can check for shock by looking at their eyes. Their pupils are fixed. jmo

LambChop, that's dead or severe injury to the brain.