17-yo Teen Trayvon Martin Shot to Death by Neighborhood Watch Captain #7

[jjenny]

So the S.A office headed by Norman Wolfinger(who has been removed from the case now) is the actual culprit and the one who decided not to charge GZ.
Against the opinion of one LE investigator. Nice to know.

It's not ethical for DA to take a case to trial if DA himself doesn't think there is enough evidence to obtain a conviction.

 

[Sensei]

There is nothing in the law that says a person must have serious injuries to claim self defense.

I agree there is nothing in the law that says you must\

BUT IN THIS CASE in the case that we are discussing here, the Trayvon Martin shooting....If anyone is going to believe that George Zimmerman was attacked there MUST be injuries, otherwise he is trying to convince the police and everyone else that he was afraid for his life from an unarmed teenager who never inflicted an injury of any kind on him...and that is simply ludicrous.

 

[jjenny]

I agree there is nothing in the law that says you must\

BUT IN THIS CASE in the case that we are discussing here, the Trayvon Martin shooting....If anyone is going to believe that George Zimmerman was attacked there MUST be injuries, otherwise he is trying to convince the police and everyone else that he was afraid for his life from an unarmed teenager who never inflicted an injury of any kind on him...and that is simply ludicrous.

I agree it was in his best interests to document his injuries. I don't doubt that if he had a good lawyer advising him from the start that's what a lawyer would tell him. But police did notice some injuries on GZ so its not like there was not a scratch on him.

 

[m00c0w]

I agree there is nothing in the law that says you must\

BUT IN THIS CASE in the case that we are discussing here, the Trayvon Martin shooting....If anyone is going to believe that George Zimmerman was attacked there MUST be injuries, otherwise he is trying to convince the police and everyone else that he was afraid for his life from an unarmed teenager who never inflicted an injury of any kind on him...and that is simply ludicrous.

I agree. I don't believe he's compelled to release anything to the public before trial, though.

 

[Inabsentia]

But some of those facts, if true, need to be made known, because they paint a picture of a young man, prone to confrontations, and possibly, violence, himself. Behavior that could support a self-defense plea.

I would like for you to provide links about Trayvon Martin's proneness to confrontations and violence, please. Because I have seen nothing to indicate this.

In the meantime if we are painting pictures of people prone to violence and confrontation: I give you George Zimmerman.

1. His then fiancee sought a restraining order against him for domestic violence, multiple incidences going back quite some time. They were ordered to stay away from one another.

2. He was arrested for assault of a police officer.

3. He chased Daniel Osmun in his motor vehicle, tailgating him and "exchanging words". Osmun describes Zimmerman as irate and states he was afraid of being attacked.

4.Zimmerman accused Tim Hudik of slashing his tires. Hudik told police he had recieved so many harrassing texts from Zimmerman that he was considering a restraining order.

5. Zimmerman's own neighbors had complained about his aggressiveness to the spd and at an hoa meeting.

6. Some neighbors would not walk in their own neighborhood for fear of being targeted by Zimmerman.

7. He accused a black teen visiting in the neighborhood of stealing a bicycle that turned out to not be missing at all.

To me these things paint a clear picture of a man with a temper he cannot always control, and an inflated sense of authority. One with an absolute willingness to confront. Moo
http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2012/03/20/v-print/142597/lawyer-girl-on-phone-with-trayvon.html first run in the Miami Herald

 

[LambChop]

LambChop, that's dead or severe injury to the brain.

Signs of shock in the eyes:

Lack of focused eye contact; stuporous or fixed gaze (zoning out); vacant or distant look (preoccupied)

Dilated eyes may be a sign of a head injury or another serious health condition. This condition is called mydriasis. If your eyes are unnaturally dilated and do not respond to light, you should seek medical attention immediately. A concussion can cause poor response to light and dilation, but usually the eyes recover as the concussion goes away. Epilepsy and stroke can also cause your pupils to dilate when they would not normally do this. This symptom will usually dissipate after a period of time, but it does signal something serious.



http://www.glassescrafter.com/information/causes-eyes-to-dilate.html

 

[HiHater]

http://gma.yahoo.com/trayvon-martin...ms-school-151838644--abc-news-topstories.html

I have looked for the article I read (yesterday, I think) stating that TM was involved in a fight/fights, but it may have been removed if it was not true. Like anyone here, my opinions are based upon information I see and/or hear. Some may be found to be true, some not -- as we are clearly seeing with two differing allegations of what happened on that night.

Trayvon's parents have maintained that his suspension had NOTHING to do with violence...JMO

 

[raeann]

Signs of shock in the eyes:

Lack of focused eye contact; stuporous or fixed gaze (zoning out); vacant or distant look (preoccupied)

Dilated eyes may be a sign of a head injury or another serious health condition. This condition is called mydriasis. If your eyes are unnaturally dilated and do not respond to light, you should seek medical attention immediately. A concussion can cause poor response to light and dilation, but usually the eyes recover as the concussion goes away. Epilepsy and stroke can also cause your pupils to dilate when they would not normally do this. This symptom will usually dissipate after a period of time, but it does signal something serious.


http://www.glassescrafter.com/information/causes-eyes-to-dilate.html

Dilated eyes and FIXED PUPILS are not the same thing at all......

 

[m00c0w]

Signs of shock in the eyes:

Lack of focused eye contact; stuporous or fixed gaze (zoning out); vacant or distant look (preoccupied)

Dilated eyes may be a sign of a head injury or another serious health condition. This condition is called mydriasis. If your eyes are unnaturally dilated and do not respond to light, you should seek medical attention immediately. A concussion can cause poor response to light and dilation, but usually the eyes recover as the concussion goes away. Epilepsy and stroke can also cause your pupils to dilate when they would not normally do this. This symptom will usually dissipate after a period of time, but it does signal something serious.



http://www.glassescrafter.com/information/causes-eyes-to-dilate.html

Yes, that's a serious form of shock generally associated with severe trauma or some sort of infarction. Fixed/blown pupils would not normally be present in a case of mild shock. Better put, having fully functioning pupils is not a sign that the individual does not have shock.

 

[Sensei]

I agree. I don't believe he's compelled to release anything to the public before trial, though.

He is not compelled to, but the laws of reciprocal discovery would have that information in the hands of Proscutors in the event of a trial anyway, and I personally think that it would have been and would be in his best interest to produce those records for inspection and if he had done so earlier, if the Police had done so earlier all the media attention may have been avoided.

no one would be so outraged if a person got shot in the midst of committing a brutal assault. But Trayvon was unarmed, and we have no information on how this came to be self defense, that is what his family wants to know and what everyone else wants to know and the records showing that Zimmerman had injuries would at the very least show that something other than just a fatal shooting occurred, IMO JMHO and stuff.

 

[Isabelle]

Signs of shock in the eyes:

Lack of focused eye contact; stuporous or fixed gaze (zoning out); vacant or distant look (preoccupied)

Dilated eyes may be a sign of a head injury or another serious health condition. This condition is called mydriasis. If your eyes are unnaturally dilated and do not respond to light, you should seek medical attention immediately. A concussion can cause poor response to light and dilation, but usually the eyes recover as the concussion goes away. Epilepsy and stroke can also cause your pupils to dilate when they would not normally do this. This symptom will usually dissipate after a period of time, but it does signal something serious.



http://www.glassescrafter.com/information/causes-eyes-to-dilate.html

There would be some response to bright light, although not as strong in an individual who is healthy. Dilated is not fixed, fixed is no response to light whatsoever and that usually implies dead or severe damage to part of the brain.

 

[m00c0w]

He is not compelled to, but the laws of reciprocal discovery would have that information in the hands of Proscutors in the event of a trial anyway, and I personally think that it would have been and would be in his best interest to produce those records for inspection and if he had done so earlier, if the Police had done so earlier all the media attention may have been avoided.

no one would be so outraged if a person got shot in the midst of committing a brutal assault. But Trayvon was unarmed, and we have no information on how this came to be self defense, that is what his family wants to know and what everyone else wants to know and the records showing that Zimmerman had injuries would at the very least show that something other than just a fatal shooting occurred, IMO JMHO and stuff.

If emotions were tamed with this entire thing, I would agree. However, I honestly don't think it would do any good at this point in time. I can already see the family claiming further attempts to demonize their son by releasing graphic imagery, claims from people that he faked the injuries and "here's how I know", and just general dissension that's not any better than what's going on right now.

 

[Isabelle]

I don't think George Zimmerman told the truth!

 

[Steely Dan]

He did not. He made 47 calls in 8 years; 3 calls in 2012, one being about Martin. Being a part of the neighborhood watch, or even a concerned citizen would explain 8 calls a year.

It was actually 46 in 7 1/2 years, but you are much closer to right than I am about that. Thanks for the correction. Here's a listing of those calls;

TEL = non-911 police number (answered by 911 dispatcher)

BM = black male

LSW = last seen wearing

46. Feb. 26, 2012 – 7:20 p.m.
Type: TEL
Subject: Suspicious activity
Report: Repeats prior report


45. Feb. 26, 2012 (night of Martin shooting) – 7:11 p.m.
Type: TEL
Subject: Suspicious activity
Report: Black male “late teens lsw dark gray hoodie jeans or sweatpants walking around area” … “subj now running towards back entrance of complex”


44. Feb. 2, 2012 – 8:29 p.m.
Type: TEL
Subject: Suspicious activity
Report: “BM lsw: black leather jacket, black hat, printed PJ pants, he keeps going going to this” location


43. Jan. 29, 2012 – 5:38 p.m.
Type: TEL
Subject: Disturbance
Report: Children “running and playing in the street”

42. Dec. 10, 2011 – 5:29 p.m.
Type: TEL
Subject: Disturbance
Report: “At the club house” … “Male subject [arrived on scene] that thought he was employed by” Zimmerman … “Subj is expected to get paid for serving food.” … Zimmerman “said that he didn’t wish him to serve at the [event]” … Zimmerman “hired someone else, subj sounded upset and wants to get paid”


41. Oct. 1, 2011 – 12:53 a.m.
Type: TEL
Subject: Suspicious activity
Report: Two black male suspects “20–30 YOA in [white] Chevy poss Impala at the gate of the community.” Zimmerman “does not recognize subjs or veh and is concerned due to recent” burglaries in the area


40. Sept. 23, 2011 – 11:08 p.m.
Type: TEL
Subject: Neighbor/Suspicious activity
Report: Zimmerman reports “open garage door” … Describes “neighborhood watch mtg last night with Sgt Herx who [advised] to report anything [suspicious]” … Zimmerman “is part of neighborhood watch” and is concerned because of recent burglaries in the area


39. Aug. 6, 2011 – 10:20 p.m.
Type: TEL
Subject: Suspicious activity
Report: Two black males, one wearing a black tank top and black shorts, the second wearing a black t-shirt and jeans … “Subjs are in their teens”


38. Aug. 3, 2011 – 6:45 p.m.
Type: TEL
Subject: Suspicious activity
Report: Black male last seen wearing a white tank top and black shorts … Zimmerman “believes subject is involved in recent” burglaries in the neighborhood


37. May 27, 2011 – 9:18 a.m.
Type: TEL
Subject: Alarm
Report: Zimmerman “has a self responding alarm that just notified him of” an alarm at this location


36. April 22, 2011 – 7:09 p.m.
Type: TEL
Subject: Suspicious activity
Report: Juvenile black male “apprx 7–9” years old, four feet tall “skinny build short blk hair” last seen wearing a blue t-shirt and blue shorts

(Increase in size by me.)


35. March 18, 2011 – 9:26 p.m.
Type: 911
Subject: Animals
Report: Zimmerman requested an officer meet him regarding a pit bull in his garage


34. Nov. 26, 2010 – 2:54 a.m.
Type: TEL
Subject: Alarm
Report: Zimmerman was out of town and a motion alarm he monitors himself went off


33. Nov. 8, 2010 – 6:54 p.m.
Type: TEL
Subject: Maintenance
Report: Zimmerman reports “trash in roadwy”


32. Oct. 2, 2010 – 1:55 p.m.
Type: TEL
Subject: Disturbance
Report: Zimmerman reports “blu jeep grand Cherokee female driver yelling at elderly passengers … windows are tinted” … “the veh was rocking back and forth and he could hear the female yelling”


31. June 26, 2010 – 11:00 p.m.
Type: 911
Subject: Disturbance
Report: “Loud party … approx 50 subjs & blocking the street”


30. June 12, 2010 – 11:13 p.m.
Type: 911
Subject: Disturbance
Report: Subject “at the clubhouse & pool areas having a party”


29. April 28, 2010 – 9:02 p.m.
Type: TEL
Subject: Disturbance
Report: “White older model four-door Buick or Oldsmobile” obstructing road


28. Feb. 27, 2010 – 4:46 p.m.
Type: TEL
Subject: Suspicious activity
Report: “Residence w/a lot of [suspicious] activity” … “multiple vehs are constantly coming to the” location … “unk subs run out to the vehs and run back inside” … “the subjs are always outside w/the garage open” … “the subjs hang out towards the st all night//ongoing problem”


27. Jan. 12, 2010 – 10:25 p.m.
Type: TEL
Subject: Neighbor
Report: Open garage door … Zimmerman says “this is very unlike his neighbor” … “there is a lot of electronics in the resd and posb in the garage”


26. Jan. 1, 2010 – 4:34 a.m.
Type: 911
Subject: Disturbance
Report: Zimmerman reports reckless driver in “purplish Ford Ranger single cab”

25. Nov. 3, 2009 – 5:04 p.m.
Type: TEL
Subject: Disturbance
Report: White Ford F350 that was “cutting people off”


24. Nov. 21, 2009 – 2:26 p.m.
Type: 911
Subject: Unclear


23. Oct. 23, 2009 – 9:18 a.m.
Type: TEL
Subject: Animals
Report: “Aggressive white and brown pitbull” sitting outside Zimmerman’s home


22. Sept. 22, 2009 – 6:00 p.m.
Type: 911
Subject: Disturbance
Report: “Yellow speed bike … was speeding and weaving in and out of traffic and doing wheelies”


21. Sept. 7, 2009 – 9:01 p.m.
Type: TEL
Subject: Maintenance
Report: “Pot hole in the road” … “it is deep and can cause damage to vehicles”


20. Aug. 26, 2009  - 8:35 p.m.
Type: TEL
Subject: Suspicious activity
Report: “Gold Caprice … male driving with no headlights … speeding”


19. Aug. 21, 2009 – 6:57 p.m.
Type: TEL
Subject: Conflict
Report: “Landlord is trying to take [Zimmerman’s] money for rent … and home in foreclosure”


18. June 16, 2009 – 3:50 p.m.
Type: TEL
Subject: Disturbance
Report: Persons in the pool area playing basketball, “jumpin over the fence going into pool area and trashin the bathroom”


17. June 10, 2009 – 1:55 a.m.
Type: 911
Subject: Alarm
Report: Fire alarm going off


16. May 4, 2009 – 4:07 p.m.
Type: TEL
Subject: Suspicious activity
Report: Reports a blue Audi A4


15. March 12, 2009 – 6:58 p.m.
Type: TEL
Subject: Patrol
Report: Patrol request between March 13 and March 22


14. Jan. 5, 2009 – 10:53 p.m.
Type: 911
Subject: Alarm
Report: Fire alarm going off


13. Nov. 25, 2007 – 12:40 a.m.
Type: TEL
Subject: Disturbance
Report: “Ex roommate is letting people that [Zimmerman] don’t like in the” house


12. Nov. 25, 2007 – 12:21 a.m.
Type: 911
Subject: Disturbance
Report: White male ex-roommate last seen wearing a red Florida State University shirt


11. Oct. 14, 2007 – 4:10 p.m.
Type: TEL
Subject: Suspicious activity
Report: Possible criminal mischief to the tire of Zimmerman’s black Dodge Durango


10. June 24, 2007 – 12:48 a.m.
Type: TEL
Subject: Suspicious activity
Report: “By the pool”, two Hispanic males and one white male with “slim jim”


9. Nov. 4, 2006 – 2:37 a.m.
Type: TEL
Subject: Suspicious activity
Report: A call regarding a “late model red” Toyota pickup “driving around the neighborhood and apt complex for the past 5 min”


8. Sept. 23, 2005 – 7:03 p.m.
Type: 911
Subject: Suspicious activity
Report: Zimmerman’s “little sister just call him from above” his address and advises “there was a” suspicious person “at the front door”


7. Sept. 21, 2005 – 9:00 p.m.
Type: 911
Subject: Animals
Report: Reports a stray dog


6. April 27, 2005 – 12:40 a.m.
Type: 911
Subject: Neighbor
Report: Open garage door


5. March 17, 2005 – 7:21 p.m.
Type: 911
Subject: Maintenance
Report: Pothole “that is blocking the road”


4. Oct. 20, 2004 – 9:13 p.m.
Type: 911
Subject: Disturbance
Report: Drunk pedestrian walking in the road


3. Aug. 20, 2004 – 11:33 p.m.
Type: 911
Subject: Neighbor
Report: Reports an open garage door


2. Aug.12, 2004 – 10:03 a.m.
Type: 911
Subject: Suspicious activity
Report: Repeats earlier report


1. Aug. 12, 2004 – 9:59 a.m.
Type: 911
Subject: Suspicious activity
Report: Places a call reporting a male in a green Ford pickup

So out of the 46 calls in seven and a half years 15 have been about suspicious activity and six specifically black males. One call was for an 8 year old black child. Six mention no race and one mentions an hispanic man.

There doesn't seem to be anything to imply the police did not take witness statements and conduct an investigation at the scene. It's still very much an active investigation, and generally evidence is held close to chest until the trial, for various reasons.

I have never seen any reports of there being crime tape put up and an investigation of the scene the following day. If they did that then I apologize. I just haven't heard of it.

Per the florida statute, they could not arrest him without probable cause to believe the use of force was unlawful. If they did, they would be committing a crime themselves. There has to be probable cause a good faith present in an arrest; if these are not present, the officer as essentially illegally detained you.

Do you think that there was enough to detain him or not?

As for that last sentence, there would need to be some evidence that Zimmerman chased him down and started hitting him. I would not characterize following someone from a distance as chasing them down, and there's no evidence as to who started hitting who first, aside from Zimmerman's testimony.

From what I've heard Zimmerman's testimony hasn't been fully released, nor has he made public statements. What we hear Zimmerman said is coming out of the mouths of the SPD.

A lot of this reportedly happened. He was taken in to be interviewed, and his clothes were taken. They probably took pictures of his wounds. They did not arrest him because of the statute prohibiting it without probable cause.

I guess this might be where you and I disagree. I think there was more than enough probable cause.

If you look at the Trevor Dooley case, he was not arrested until they formed this very same probable cause by interviewing witnesses that saw the entire event happen. Unfortunately, it does not look like the investigators were so lucky, so they had a lengthy investigation to sort through everything.

Once again, if they did put up crime scene tape and check it after the rain in the sunlight of the next day then I'm wrong. It doesn't look that way though. It appears that this wasn't a lengthy investigation. It appears it took one night.

I'm not sure if it's fair to claim that they're "stonewalling" when it's still an active investigation. Perhaps if they didn't have to keep handing the investigation over to different parties, all of the information would have been released by now.

I find it difficult to believe that the FBI stepped in and found a thorough investigation going on and being competently handled and continued to stay on it for long.

Bottom line; If the stand your ground law can't only be used as a defense in court then the law has to change. JMO

 

[gxm]

BBM - If we can't agree on this, well I see no hope here.

violence - the exercise or an instance of physical force, usually effecting or intended to effect injuries, destruction, etc.

Let's get real. Zimmerman committed an act violence. Agreed?

Yes. Violence. Which GZ claims was a reaction (of self defense) to an act of violence against him. There is, at this point, no evidence to disprove GZ's account. Unfortunately, IMO, the window to obtain substantial evidence is closed. The case should have been handled better, much better. But at this point, I don't think there's enough evidence to convict GZ. Just hearsay and accounts that are weeks old (not obtained immediately) and IMO tainted by the witch hunt aftermath. IMO, JMO, MOO, etc.

 

[rotterdam]

Zimmerman said Martin had his hand in his waistband. He reported that to the 911, why?

The only thing I can think of is because it indicated he might have had a gun in his waistband.

So Zimmerman thinking Martin might be armed runs after him chasing a teen he thinks might be armed.

I bet he was pumped up with adrenaline ready for Martin to pull that gun at any time.

Now why would anybody chase after somebody if they would think the person could be armed and they were not officially employed and paid to do such things unless you are on a suicide mission. Any rational person would remain in their car and wait till the cops arrived.

 

[Sensei]

If emotions were tamed with this entire thing, I would agree. However, I honestly don't think it would do any good at this point in time. I can already see the family claiming further attempts to demonize their son by releasing graphic imagery, claims from people that he faked the injuries and "here's how I know", and just general dissension that's not any better than what's going on right now.

At this point maybe not, but it may never have gotten to this point if the family of Trayvon Martin had gotten some answers instead of the run around from Sanford PD in a reasonable time. It's one thing to release it to the public NOW, but what was the problem with releasing what they had to the family, to at least satisfy them that it was not cold blooded murder and covered up because the police didn't care. If this is all a tempest in a teapot and really is self defense then the bruha surrounding it can be blamed squarely on SPD, and if it's not, then there too a butt load of blame can be placed on SPD, it is good that fresh eyes and others are looking into it, it needs to be clarified. IMO JMHO and stuff.

 

[vlpate]

:waitasec:



Red/bold by me...

http://abcnews.go.com/US/trayvon-ma...n-manslaughter/story?id=16011674#.T3IVXdU_LQ2

Here's the problem with media who pay for their exclusives and don't name sources:

"The lead homicide investigator in the shooting of unarmed teenager Trayvon Martin recommended that neighborhood watch captain George Zimmerman be charged with manslaughter the night of the shooting, multiple sources told ABC News."

First of all, I thought a narcotics detective questioned Zimmerman the night of the shooting. Which "lead homicide investigator" are they talking about. Wouldn't this imply a more thorough investigation? Multiple sources? Really? You know they can just say that and not have to back it up, right?

Ridiculous!!!

 

[LambChop]

Dilated eyes and FIXED PUPILS are not the same thing at all......

I know, I know. Not a medic but I did get it off of a site regarding shock. Poor choice of words on my part and it wasn't meant to mislead. The article didn't mention that the person was near death or dead. Thanks for catching that mistake. jmo

 

[gxm]

It was actually 46 in 7 1/2 years, but you are much closer to right than I am about that. Thanks for the correction. Here's a listing of those calls;

(respectfully snipped for space)

I find it difficult to believe that the FBI stepped in and found a thorough investigation going on and being competently handled and continued to stay on it for long.

Bottom line; If the stand your ground law can't only be used as a defense in court then the law has to change. JMO

Thanks for organizing this information. IIRC, didn't someone (LE or HOA) say that GZ was responsible for catching/stopping one or two burglaries? Are any of those noted in the phone records? I'm just trying to figure out if it's fact or rumor that he prevented some crimes.