17-yo Teen Trayvon Martin Shot to Death by Neighborhood Watch Captain #7

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  • #621
I never claimed it was a hunch or a whim. I said that it's still up to the police and prosecution to decide whether it exists or not. Sometimes it's not as clear as others, and there can be a very hazy line (such as this case, from all accounts so far). There are standards as to what meets the probable cause requirement, but those are still subjective and up to the police and prosecution to determine. Does that clarify what I'm saying a little more?....

I think the problem is your use of the word "subjective". Two astrophysicists may reach different conclusions as to the age of the universe, but that doesn't mean their opinions are subjective. They may be using different data, they may have started with different premises, one or both of them may be wrong, etc. None of that means they are giving subjective opinions.

The same is true for probable cause (and "beyond a reasonable doubt"). There are objective tests for both, but even rational humans may reach different conclusions without resorting to subjective assumptions.

The burden of proof is always on the prosecution to show that the defendant committed a crime. Self-defense is usually an affirmative defense, which acknowledges that the crime did occur, but there is a reasonable excuse for why it occurred....

But the burden of proof does shift with an affirmative defense; that's why such a defense is called "affirmative". I was a juror on a self-defense murder case in CA. It was made quite clear to us that the defendant had to prove he acted in reasonable self-defense; it was not the prosecution's burden to prove he had not. (Of course that didn't prevent the DA from presenting contrary evidence; it just wasn't his or her burden to disprove the claim.)

According to its author (whom I heard on TV), the Florida SYG law was intended to relieve self-defense killers from spending years and their life savings on the legal process. Sounds nice in theory, but we see in practice that LE is left with the testimony of the survivor, while the dead man "tells no tales".
 
  • #622
According to the map that was posted (thanks by the way), I'd like someone to explain if Zimmerman got out of his truck to check out the sign for the street he was at, why exactly was he that far away from the road when Trayvon was killed? He was off the sidewalk in the middle of the rows of condos. Did Trayvon drag Zimmerman all this distance from where Zimmerman was looking at the street sign after he punched him or what?
 
  • #623
For those interested NG is on and they are talking about the THREE different statements GZ gace to police and they are all different...


OT: Back in 1996 i lived in Sanford Fl. in a gated community and a police officer told my ex if you shoot..Shoot to kill and claim self defense and make sure the other person is dead and you will walk!!!!! This cop said this to a man with a lengthy criminal record and was a wman beater!!!! I believe GZ was told this by an officer.....IMO,JMO,IMHO
 
  • #624
oh Al Sharpton would be and you wouldn't be? Very interesting considering you are on GZ' "side"
I didn't even know there are "sides" now.
I'm shocked.

Are you honestly claiming that the media has not made this divisive, and certain parties have made it a "You're either with us, or against us" thing?
 
  • #625
How would she know if it was TM or GZ if she only heard it without seeing it?

And more importantly, as far as I can tell, no one else said that the two people were fighting, then stopped fighting and run to her yard. Obviously that would be a completely different scenario, but I haven't heard anything on 911 calls to indicate that anyone saw that the two people stopped fighting and run.
 
  • #626
oh Al Sharpton would be and you wouldn't be? Very interesting considering you are on GZ' "side"
I didn't even know there are "sides" now.
I'm shocked.

I have NEVER seen Sharpton come out in protest when an AA kills a White or Hispanic person...........If I missed it I am sorry.

This isn't about sides or race IMO...........
 
  • #627
IMHO.. A voice analysis needs to be conducted in order to find out who exactly was screaming..JMHO

It has been reported they are doing voice analysis.
 
  • #628
I hope he issues a public apology for such a stupid stunt.

Apology my :butthead: she needs to sue him. She could have been killed. One of Lee's fans sent out, what they believe to be the correct address.
 
  • #629
I shudder to think...
Did you see the Anderson Cooper interview last night with the New Blank Panther leader spewing his venom? How about the dude standing next to him? Those are some mean and scarey people. Pure evil and hate in their eyes. Just think about all the youth that will be looking up to them as their "voice". These are some scarey times, indeed. Protect yourself and your loved ones, however you see fit.

Well here is one of those armed racist that threatens to murder people that has had his gun takin away.

If Jason Giroir is as reckless, dumb, judgmental and racist as his online activity suggests he is, Justin Giroir has no business serving as a New Orleans police officer. He needs to be permanently removed -- and now.

giroirmug.32712.jpgNew Orleans police officer Justin Giroir was suspended Monday after making offensive online comments on a local news website.

The veteran cop was suspended Monday after he made plainly offensive comments about last month's killing of 17-year-old Trayvon Martin in Sanford, Fla., on WWL-TV's website.

Around the country, people outraged about Martin's death have protested while wearing hooded sweatshirts because that's the attire Martin's killer -- George Zimmerman -- found so suspicious that he called 911 as Martin walked in the rain.

Apparently, Zimmerman, a self-appointed neighborhood watch captain, was only a cop in his mind but has prejudices similar to those with real badges. Similar to Giroir at least, who summarized Martin's demise with this comment: "Act like a 🤬🤬🤬🤬 Die like one!"

When another reader called that comment racist and asked if a wearing a hoodie makes somebody a 🤬🤬🤬🤬, Giroir responded, "come on down to our town with a 'Hoodie' and you can join Martin in HELL and talk about your racist stories!:-P"

Giroir writes this using his actual name. He writes it after a man much more powerful than he, assistant U.S. Attorney Sal Perricone, was exposed as having made reckless online comments with the pseudonym "Henry L. Mencken1951" and consequently lost his job.

http://www.nola.com/opinions/index.ssf/2012/03/new_orleans_police_officer_jus.html

New Orleans officer resigns after Trayvon comments
US Video
Advertisement
Buy AP Photo Reprints

NEW ORLEANS (AP) -- A New Orleans police officer has resigned after being suspended for posting a comment on a local television station's website about the fatal shooting of Trayvon Martin in which he suggested the Florida teen died like a "🤬🤬🤬🤬."

Jason Giroir used his full name and identified himself as a New Orleans Police Department employee when he wrote, "Act like a 🤬🤬🤬🤬 die like one!" in response to a WWL-TV article about a rally supporting Martin.

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/storie..._MARTIN?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT
 
  • #630
Mary C has made several claims that so far i haven't seen evidence to support. Such as the two people fought somewhere else then ended up in her yard. It doesn't seem to be supported by any of the 911 calls that we heard so far. No one described anyone running to Mary C's yard (or anywhere else, for that matter) after the fight. Also I can hear loud screams on several 911 calls and to me they don't sound like a child crying.

She could be truthful, we don't have the 911 caller's addresses to compare...
 
  • #631
She could be truthful, we don't have the 911 caller's addresses to compare...

Well I am not saying she doesn't believe her story, but I am not convinced at all that her story is accurate. If the two people took off running, presumably one after the other, then it would not be considered self-defense for obvious reasons. But no other caller describes anything of the sort, and MC herself didn't witness anything of the sort either. She didn't see who was screaming (or crying) and she didn't see anyone running.
 
  • #632
I think the problem is your use of the word "subjective". Two astrophysicists may reach different conclusions as to the age of the universe, but that doesn't mean their opinions are subjective. They may be using different data, they may have started with different premises, one or both of them may be wrong, etc. None of that means they are giving subjective opinions.

The same is true for probable cause (and "beyond a reasonable doubt"). There are objective tests for both, but even rational humans may reach different conclusions without resorting to subjective assumptions.
So are you saying that it wouldn't be easy for a police officer to say that they did not come up with probable cause to arrest someone, and explain their way out of it? To me, that's more subjective than objective. It's not like there are specific, objective criteria that must be satisfied in order for PC to be met, or not be met. It all hinges on those making the decisions.

But the burden of proof does shift with an affirmative defense; that's why such a defense is called "affirmative". I was a juror on a self-defense murder case in CA. It was made quite clear to us that the defendant had to prove he acted in reasonable self-defense; it was not the prosecution's burden to prove he had not. (Of course that didn't prevent the DA from presenting contrary evidence; it just wasn't his or her burden to disprove the claim.)

According to its author (whom I heard on TV), the Florida SYG law was intended to relieve self-defense killers from spending years and their life savings on the legal process. Sounds nice in theory, but we see in practice that LE is left with the testimony of the survivor, while the dead man "tells no tales".
I've never claimed otherwise. The burden is always on the prosecution to prove that the defendant committed a crime. It is. An affirmative defense is when the defendant acknowledges they committed this crime (burden of proof met on the part of the prosecution), and says they have a valid reason for committing the crime (and then provide a reasonable explanation why). In Florida, this still seems to be the case; it's the arrest/charging procedures that have changed.
 
  • #633
I have NEVER seen Sharpton come out in protest when an AA kills a White or Hispanic person...........If I missed it I am sorry.

This isn't about sides or race IMO...........

I have never seen that either.
 
  • #634
Well here is one of those armed racist that threatens to murder people that has had his gun takin away.

If Jason Giroir is as reckless, dumb, judgmental and racist as his online activity suggests he is, Justin Giroir has no business serving as a New Orleans police officer. He needs to be permanently removed -- and now.

giroirmug.32712.jpgNew Orleans police officer Justin Giroir was suspended Monday after making offensive online comments on a local news website.

The veteran cop was suspended Monday after he made plainly offensive comments about last month's killing of 17-year-old Trayvon Martin in Sanford, Fla., on WWL-TV's website.

Around the country, people outraged about Martin's death have protested while wearing hooded sweatshirts because that's the attire Martin's killer -- George Zimmerman -- found so suspicious that he called 911 as Martin walked in the rain.

Apparently, Zimmerman, a self-appointed neighborhood watch captain, was only a cop in his mind but has prejudices similar to those with real badges. Similar to Giroir at least, who summarized Martin's demise with this comment: "Act like a 🤬🤬🤬🤬 Die like one!"

When another reader called that comment racist and asked if a wearing a hoodie makes somebody a 🤬🤬🤬🤬, Giroir responded, "come on down to our town with a 'Hoodie' and you can join Martin in HELL and talk about your racist stories!:-P"

Giroir writes this using his actual name. He writes it after a man much more powerful than he, assistant U.S. Attorney Sal Perricone, was exposed as having made reckless online comments with the pseudonym "Henry L. Mencken1951" and consequently lost his job.

http://www.nola.com/opinions/index.ssf/2012/03/new_orleans_police_officer_jus.html

New Orleans officer resigns after Trayvon comments
US Video
Advertisement
Buy AP Photo Reprints

NEW ORLEANS (AP) -- A New Orleans police officer has resigned after being suspended for posting a comment on a local television station's website about the fatal shooting of Trayvon Martin in which he suggested the Florida teen died like a "🤬🤬🤬🤬."

Jason Giroir used his full name and identified himself as a New Orleans Police Department employee when he wrote, "Act like a 🤬🤬🤬🤬 die like one!" in response to a WWL-TV article about a rally supporting Martin.

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/storie..._MARTIN?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT
Is this really the same as having a national audience and putting a bounty on someone's head? Let's not make apples-to-oranges comparions.

What this dude did was wrong, yes. But he's not inciting violence on a national level.
 
  • #635
oh Al Sharpton would be and you wouldn't be? Very interesting considering you are on GZ' "side"
I didn't even know there are "sides" now.
I'm shocked.

I'm on no one's side. :waitasec:
 
  • #636
Well I am not saying she doesn't believe her story, but I am not convinced at all that her story is accurate. If the two people took off running, presumably one after the other, then it would not be considered self-defense for obvious reasons. But no other caller describes anything of the sort, and MC herself didn't witness anything of the sort either. She didn't see who was screaming (or crying) and she didn't see anyone running.

It depends on which leaked version by the PD you go by. If Zimmerman was at his car when confronted then they went from the car to the back of the apartments and past many possible homes. They went through a frontyard, a side yard and a backyard fighting.
 
  • #637
No OFFENSE to anyone please but

I am saddened and sick and tired that in a VICTIM FRIENDLY FORUM such a hassle is started...

Young Trayvon is the victim in whatever way....

The national issue is that the police didn't do a proper investigation ... Isn't it that what we want justice for Trayvon in the matter of proper handling of the case.....?

And just as a little reminder.... NO one is perfect... We all may have had our little or bigger mistakes but we turned out good and nice... We were all kids and teens...

As we say back in Switzerland :
The one without any fault may throw the first stone...

I personally just want to know that LE will do a proper fair investigation... If it wouldn't turn out the way I wish I certainly would have to accept it... But in my opinion Trayvon still is the "innocent" victim at the wrong place at the wrong time......

And yes my opinion only and hopes

Blessings

Micci
 
  • #638
Is this really the same as having a national audience and putting a bounty on someone's head? Let's not make apples-to-oranges comparions.

What this dude did was wrong, yes. But he's not inciting violence on a national level.

And I'm not making excuses for this NOLA officer, but I'm sure he has dealt with a lot of thugs in NOLA and could be very jaded.

That does not make it right, but I can see how he could feel that way.
 
  • #639
And more importantly, as far as I can tell, no one else said that the two people were fighting, then stopped fighting and run to her yard. Obviously that would be a completely different scenario, but I haven't heard anything on 911 calls to indicate that anyone saw that the two people stopped fighting and run.

IIRC more then 1 991 caller said wrestling ,IMO that means rolling around and that is only way that makes sense.
 
  • #640
Is this really the same as having a national audience and putting a bounty on someone's head? Let's not make apples-to-oranges comparions.

What this dude did was wrong, yes. But he's not inciting violence on a national level.

No, he was an armed racist in a position of authority. With a lot bigger club then the New Black Panthers have.
 
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