17 yo Trayvon Martin Shot to Death by Neighborhood Watch Captain #13

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  • #681
That is one valid point.
But I think this is a valid point too:
a watchman knows how to size people up, and IMH based on screwdriver and ladies jewelry in TMs locker GZ did size him up right.
BUT, he was also overzealous, and should have waited for the police, because things snowballed out of control.
NO I DO NOT THINK that GZ came out of his house with a gun looking for a black person someone to shoot.

It's important to note that there are multiple explanations for how the jewelry and screw driver could have been perfectly legitimate and non-criminal. He was not arrested for this and none of the jewelry matched any reported stolen jewelry.

A young man who was a college student of mine was student teaching at a distant rural school. He drove the back country roads every day in an old beater car. The driver side door would no longer open and close properly. He kept a flathead screwdriver in his messenger bag to use when he needed it to get the door to open. Once in a severe ice storm his door froze shut. In trying to get it open, the frozen window broke out. He couldn't get the door shut again. He had to drive the car an hour home in 13* temps with the door and window open. I'm pretty sure he looked quite raggedy. Had he been stopped and searched, that screwdriver in his messenger bag would probably have looked pretty darn suspicious. By his looks that day, he might have been thought to fit the "profile" of a robber, too. He very probably even looked like he was on drugs, but he was only traumatized and hypothermic. Best and nicest kid I ever had in the program. Thank heavens no one called 911 to report him as "suspicious" and no one had a burning passion to not 'let this one get away'.

The jewelry: has it occurred to ANYONE that these could have been used as 'token commodities' or symbolism among young men? My son hung strings of camel bells in his room in late teens/early adulthood and mixed in those and over wallhangings were some pretty women's necklaces and bracelets, the style of his day and generation. Never once did I think he had stolen them; he WAS pretty popular with the ladies though (still is at 31).
 
  • #682
Pardon me if someone has already mentioned this, but NBC News doctored Zimmerman's 911 call in order to make him look bad.

IMO, they couldn't have made him look any worse than the original, uneditted version did.
 
  • #683
  • #684
It's important to note that there are multiple explanations for how the jewelry and screw driver could have been perfectly legitimate and non-criminal. He was not arrested for this and none of the jewelry matched any reported stolen jewelry.

A young man who was a college student of mine was student teaching at a distant rural school. He drove the back country roads every day in an old beater car. The driver side door would no longer open and close properly. He kept a flathead screwdriver in his messenger bag to use when he needed it to get the door to open. Once in a severe ice storm his door froze shut. In trying to get it open, the frozen window broke out. He couldn't get the door shut again. He had to drive the car an hour home in 13* temps with the door and window open. I'm pretty sure he looked quite raggedy. Had he been stopped and searched, that screwdriver in his messenger bag would probably have looked pretty darn suspicious. By his looks that day, he might have been thought to fit the "profile" of a robber, too. He very probably even looked like he was on drugs, but he was only traumatized and hypothermic. Best and nicest kid I ever had in the program. Thank heavens no one called 911 to report him as "suspicious" and no one had a burning passion to not 'let this one get away'.

The jewelry: has it occurred to ANYONE that these could have been used as 'token commodities' or symbolism among young men? My son hung strings of camel bells in his room in late teens/early adulthood and mixed in those and over wallhangings were some pretty women's necklaces and bracelets, the style of his day and generation. Never once did I think he had stolen them; he WAS pretty popular with the ladies though (still is at 31).

I forgot the whole point of this. If "sizing up" is based on bias, it is wrong and sometimes leads to wrongful death. AND if all it takes to be suspicious of someone is the way they are dressed and they "LOOK like they are on drugs" then anyone walking while singing, swinging their arms around to limber up, thinking of a memory that makes them grin or grimace, looking for shelter from a driving rain, these can ALL be MISTAKEN for being on drugs. It really doesn't take much. That is NO reason to stalk a person in the dark in the rain, rather, a sensible and REASONABLE person would NOT, imo.
 
  • #685
BBM

I am also disturbed by apparent attempts to blame the victim. However, I think there is one way that this information can be relevant in Trayvon's case. That is in determining whether it is likely that Trayvon *did* deliberately and proactively attack GZ, in which case GZ would legally be within his rights to shoot to defend himself.

In other words, if Trayvon was the type of kid to attack someone who was bugging him, then GZ's story would be supported. Looking at his tweets, his background, etc., are methods of forming an opinion about whether or not he was likely to do such a thing.

This morning I watched the interview with Trayvon's mother for the first time. They posed the question to her about whether she was surprised to find out he had been in an altercation, or whether it was something he would commonly be involved with. Her reaction was strongly that it was *not* something she would have expected, "especially with an adult". (Miami Herald Interviews Trayvon Martin Family - Does NOT Ask About Chicken - YouTube)

For me JUST MY TAKE
watching Trayvons family in any tape, is a heart break.
Nobody should have to bury their child, children are supposed to bury their parents. :(:( :(

But I do not believe anything coming from this family’s camp.
I do not believe anything coming from GZ camp either.
Because both camps are invested to win the case, they love thier family.

I am invested in justice and to change a law that can have mad men
out just killing without a thorough investigation.
This law has to be repaired somehow, and now is the time.
 
  • #686
IMO, they couldn't have made him look any worse than the original, uneditted version did.


NBC cut the tape t have Zimmermann say:
This guy looks like he's up to no good. He looks BLACK."

This implies race was the first thing GZ mentioned. That is a lie. It is the police that asked for a racial identification. Even then, GZ was not sure. He was following a suspicious kid...not a WHITE or BLACK kid.

What he reallly said:



91ZIMMERMAN: This guy looks like he's up to no good, [begin ellipsis] or he's on drugs or something. It's raining, and he's just walking around, looking about.

911 DISPATCHER: Okay, is this guy, is he white, black, or Hispanic? [end ellipsis]

ZIMMERMAN: He looks black.
 
  • #687
  • #688

I am so glad to see this. My own mother kept insisting fabricated/edited quotes from the transcript were real. And I'm not sure she believed me when I told her that wasn't what was said.

I got in trouble several threads back for requesting that we all quote the transcripts verbatim as opposed to editing or paraphrasing with embellishments of our own opinion(s). And this is why. Well meaning people are completely misinformed about this case.
 
  • #689
  • #690
Watchmen do size people up, and should...

Sadly this ended in a tragedy :( [
But so far I have not seen anything that proves anything except that the police was not doing an investigation.
This does infuriate me. There is nothing fair about not investigating, to get an accurate account of the events.
[/B][/COLOR]

People certainly DO care, probably more so today than ever before. But seeing a person walk down the street does not imply a crime is taking place. Anyone I know in those circumstances would keep a watchful eye from within their home but not immediately profile this kid as a criminal up to no good.

I can't really imagine what is expected here? Someone seeing someone walking down the street calls neighbors and says "hey, there's someone walking down the street" and then they go out and follow said someone around the neighborhood??? This seems quite bizarre, quite paranoid, and definitely biased to me.
 
  • #691

The issue is that the OP stated as fact that NBC altered the recording for nefarious purposes.

It was a stupid edit to make, and it had the effect of making it look like GZ brought up race first and not as a response to a question, and some editor surely should have caught it... but we don't know if it was done with the intent of making GZ look bad, or because they needed to cut seconds from the segment to make it fit the time slot and made a bad choice, or what.

This is one very good example of why we ask that you please clearly mark your opinions with IMOs, and support your inferences with linkable facts. :please:
 
  • #692
My DD went to school has her degree in CJ.She even took the test for police office running with a 150lb dummy jumping in a window with no hands etc.While she was getting her degree she drove us crazy,she was very suspicious of our neighbor of 2 years.She insisted something was not right across the street, that he was into something shady.We just thought she was over reacting,turned out he was stealing cars from out of state and reselling them at his used car lot.He and his wife also were involved in phoney mortgages,swindled a lot of people.We were in shock when after a raid at his home we found out what was going on under our noses.IMO She noticed because of her schooling and also I believe some people who are geared for LE just think things differently.
 
  • #693
For me JUST MY TAKE
watching Trayvons family in any tape, is a heart break.
Nobody should have to bury their child, children are supposed to bury their parents. :(:( :(

But I do not believe anything coming from this family’s camp.
I do not believe anything coming from GZ camp either.
Because both camps are invested to win the case, they love thier family.

I am invested in justice and to change a law that can have mad men
out just killing without a thorough investigation.
This law has to be repaired somehow, and now is the time.

I agree with you that we can't treat the content as factual. But we sometimes make judgements about people's reactions, and my feeling about her reaction to this question was that it was genuine. Of course, that's just my opinion and I don't claim to be an expert judge of honest reactions. But she did seem, to me, to be responding honestly.

And I agree that it is heartbreaking to see her pain.
 
  • #694
It's important to note that there are multiple explanations for how the jewelry and screw driver could have been perfectly legitimate and non-criminal. He was not arrested for this and none of the jewelry matched any reported stolen jewelry.
Actually while he was not arrested the police took all - hopefully they will find the rightful owners. this my not be a bad time just to put some pieces on the internet without his name...and see if anyone will come forward. AND he refused to say how he got the bubbles. All he was saying is it belongs to a friend. SO NO we do not know much but – I cant see him saying OH yes I took t from so and so house.


A young man who was a college student of mine was student teaching at a distant rural school. He drove the back country roads every day in an old beater car. The driver side door would no longer open and close properly. He kept a flathead screwdriver in his messenger bag to use when he needed it to get the door to open. Once in a severe ice storm his door froze shut. In trying to get it open, the frozen window broke out. He couldn't get the door shut again. He had to drive the car an hour home in 13* temps with the door and window open. I'm pretty sure he looked quite raggedy. Had he been stopped and searched, that screwdriver in his messenger bag would probably have looked pretty darn suspicious. By his looks that day, he might have been thought to fit the "profile" of a robber, too. He very probably even looked like he was on drugs, but he was only traumatized and hypothermic. Best and nicest kid I ever had in the program. Thank heavens no one called 911 to report him as "suspicious" and no one had a burning passion to not 'let this one get away'.
IF YOUR FRIEND was stopped he can show them why he need the screwdriver, he would not need to hide anything.

The jewelry: has it occurred to ANYONE that these could have been used as 'token commodities' or symbolism among young men? My son hung strings of camel bells in his room in late teens/early adulthood and mixed in those and over wallhangings were some pretty women's necklaces and bracelets, the style of his day and generation. Never once did I think he had stolen them; he WAS pretty popular with the ladies though (still is at 31).

But your son did not hid anything in his locker...
<modsnip>
 
  • #695
It's important to note that there are multiple explanations for how the jewelry and screw driver could have been perfectly legitimate and non-criminal. He was not arrested for this and none of the jewelry matched any reported stolen jewelry.

A young man who was a college student of mine was student teaching at a distant rural school. He drove the back country roads every day in an old beater car. The driver side door would no longer open and close properly. He kept a flathead screwdriver in his messenger bag to use when he needed it to get the door to open. Once in a severe ice storm his door froze shut. In trying to get it open, the frozen window broke out. He couldn't get the door shut again. He had to drive the car an hour home in 13* temps with the door and window open. I'm pretty sure he looked quite raggedy. Had he been stopped and searched, that screwdriver in his messenger bag would probably have looked pretty darn suspicious. By his looks that day, he might have been thought to fit the "profile" of a robber, too. He very probably even looked like he was on drugs, but he was only traumatized and hypothermic. Best and nicest kid I ever had in the program. Thank heavens no one called 911 to report him as "suspicious" and no one had a burning passion to not 'let this one get away'.

The jewelry: has it occurred to ANYONE that these could have been used as 'token commodities' or symbolism among young men? My son hung strings of camel bells in his room in late teens/early adulthood and mixed in those and over wallhangings were some pretty women's necklaces and bracelets, the style of his day and generation. Never once did I think he had stolen them; he WAS pretty popular with the ladies though (still is at 31).


Great post...all I'm trying to say is that there can be multiple explanations for everything in this case. The only thing WE know for sure is that this young man is dead...and should not be.

But the media distortions and the ugliness of tolerated death threats are ddisgusting. I've seen this before. And the screamers were wrong.
 
  • #696
The issue is that the OP stated as fact that NBC altered the recording for nefarious purposes.

It was a stupid edit to make, and it had the effect of making it look like GZ brought up race first and not as a response to a question, and some editor surely should have caught it... but we don't know if it was done with the intent of making GZ look bad, or because they needed to cut seconds from the segment to make it fit the time slot and made a bad choice, or what.

This is one very good example of why we ask that you please clearly mark your opinions with IMOs, and support your inferences with linkable facts. :please:

These folks are professionals with a national audience. IMO, it was not merely stupid. It was journalistic malpractice.

JMO, OMO, and :moo:
 
  • #697
LE didn't even canvass the complex.

LE may have canvassed the complex. The Martins were not home until 11 pm. Their 13 yr old was home alone so he probably didn't answer the door, or didn't even hear the doorbell.
 
  • #698
LE may have canvassed the complex. The Martins were not home until 11 pm. Their 13 yr old was home alone so he probably didn't answer the door, or didn't even hear the doorbell.

Is there any evidence that they *did* canvass the neighborhood? What do they say they did?
 
  • #699
I agree with you that we can't treat the content as factual. But we sometimes make judgements about people's reactions, and my feeling about her reaction to this question was that it was genuine. Of course, that's just my opinion and I don't claim to be an expert judge of honest reactions. But she did seem, to me, to be responding honestly.

And I agree that it is heartbreaking to see her pain.
This is my opinion about what you are saying.
His mom wants more then anything to believ in her child, so she thinks of all the things that
LOVE brings out of her. And she means what she says.
I also believe that GZ's family want to do the same.

I know however that enabling people looks just like this too.
It is love that makes us enable people.
I knew a family with a drug addicted son, they can bring out of his room all his trophies,
all his accomplishments, all his volunteer work&#8230;
The son used to steal for heroin&#8230; but all they can come up with is we give him plenty of money
there is no way he would steal&#8230; Yes they were wealthy, yes he used to steal.
 
  • #700
IMO, they couldn't have made him look any worse than the original, uneditted version did.

True, he looks just as bad even with the full version that's been played in the media over and over and over before that was ever shown.

I'm glad that NBC is investigating it. If it was edited purposefully then that's wrong, very wrong, someone should get fired, no one ever said it's ok, but the 911 call unedited has been all over the media. To say that it was that one piece that led everyone to their conclusion is ridiculous.

And it's just as wrong as when certain high profile political pundits were so desperate to portray the victim as a 🤬🤬🤬🤬 that they spread a picture that wasn't even him.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs...2/03/28/gIQAxaPhgS_blog.html?tid=pm_world_pop

The most prominent piece of misinformation was a photo that alleged to be of Trayvon Martin. The photo showed a shirtless boy in sagging shorts, giving the finger to the camera. It was shared widely on social networks, but the most influential posting was on Twitchy, a Twitter aggregation project by conservative commentator Michelle Malkin.

Twitchy later retracted the photo, saying &#8220;The photo on the right is not Trayvon Martin.&#8221; It is unclear where the photo came from or who is actually shown in the picture &#8212; but it is no longer believed to be Martin.


And it's still absurd to me to say that GZ didn't know what race Trayvon was, he immediately said he looked black when asked, within 30 seconds of the 911 call, there was no no hesitation, no I'm not sure, he said he looks black. Most are intelligent enough to know that if we say someone looks black is because we saw what they looked like.

JMHO
 
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