17 yo Trayvon Martin Shot to Death by Neighborhood Watch Captain #16

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  • #801
I'm curious what people think by listening to the 911 call what GZ's location was when he was told "We don't need you to do that?" Was he in his truck or already behind the building near where the incident occurred?
BBM

There seems very little question to me where he was. He was at some point toward the beginning of the back sidewalk between the townhouses.

Zimmerman:

He’s running. [2:08]

911 dispatcher:

He’s running? Which way is he running?

Zimmerman:

Down toward the other entrance of the neighborhood. [2:14]

911 dispatcher:

OK, which entrance is that he’s headed towards?

Zimmerman:

The back entrance.

911 dispatcher:

Are you following him? [2:24]

Zimmerman:

Yeah. [2:25]

911 dispatcher:

OK.

We don’t need you to do that. [2:26]

Zimmerman:

OK. [2:28]

Robert Zimmerman clarified his position even further in his interview:

“Police told George not to follow Martin, and asked him where he was. However, because he was behind the town homes he could not see the nearest address.”

This is why, Robert Zimmerman claims, his son decided to keep following Martin, so he could obtain an address to give to police

The “back sidewalk” is between and behind two rows of residences whose addresses would be on the front or opposite sides of the buildings.

This particular group of buildings and sidewalk are the only place in the development that meets the qualifiers of headed towards the back entrance, being behind the townhomes, and being blind to any street address.

TMBackSidewalk-1.png
 
  • #802
It may not have been random to GZ if it was a pattern to him to think all black teens are up to no good but it was completely random and unjustified to TM.
GZ may have thought whatever but he picked a random black person to follow for no good reason at all.

He didn't pick a random person. He picked a person walking through a neighborhood whom he thought was up to no good. Whether TM was actually up to no good is irrelevant in deciding whether TM was randomly picked. He looked suspicious to GZ.
 
  • #803
I don't know about going to their house...
But, if the stalker is in the middle of committing the crime of STALKING-- YES!!! The person being STALKED would have the RIGHT to defend themselves!

"can they wait until that person gets close to them then start wailing on them"? Do you mean AFTER they ask the person WHY they are following them?

jmho~
I don't believe that GZ was stalking TM but if he was are you saying, in your opinion, that it would legally entitle TM to physically attack GZ?
 
  • #804
Just because GZ thought Trayvon was "up to no good" does not make it fact! GZ is NOT judge & jury. For heaven's sake, GZ is not even LE!

After calling 911, GZ had fulfilled his role as a Neighborhood Watch Captain. It is up to LE to investigate and determine if Trayvon was "up to no good". Sadly, GZ didn't stay in his truck!

jmho~

He was already out of his truck and following Trayvon when he was told "we don't need you to do that." JMO
 
  • #805
Ok...this was not "random". He thought TM was up to no good. GZ didn't just pick a random person to follow. If a person you've never seen before is following you...do you attack them? I don't think so, it's not "defending yourself".

BBM correct, this was not "random" it was the opposite of random. GZ did not follow just some random kid. He followed a teenage AA male who looked suspicious, wore a hoody, was out in the rain, seemed to be on drugs, and fit the description of A-hole in GZ's estimation.

The fact that this was not random tends to give credence IMO that TM was profiled, followed and confronted because of race and or age and or general appearance, none of which is okay in my book.

UBM what about TM made him appear to be up to no good? That is the question many of us are asking, the answer to which will IMO shed light on whether this was racially motivated.

If I am being followed in the dark of night by a strange man, who I think I have evaded but who then pops back up again, still following, you can bet your bippy I am feeling threatened. you can also bet I am gonna stand my ground and defend myself.
 
  • #806
Just because GZ thought Trayvon was "up to no good" does not make it fact! GZ is NOT judge & jury. For heaven's sake, GZ is not even LE!

After calling 911, GZ had fulfilled his role as a Neighborhood Watch Captain. It is up to LE to investigate and determine if Trayvon was "up to no good". Sadly, GZ didn't stay in his truck!

jmho~

Right, because this poor, innocent child wouldn't have had to beat/assault him if he had just stayed in his truck. I mean what right does GZ have to walk the same streets as Trayvon Martin ? We need to question the right of GZ to get out of his truck.
 
  • #807
In a written sworn to statement in a homicide case Officer Smith said Zimmerman was wearing a red jacket.

You can find that statement here: http://www.sanfordfl.gov/investigation/docs/Twin Lakes Shooting Initial Report.pdf

Sanford City released a video showing Zimmerman in said jacket. Here is the link to video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9WWDNbQUgm4&feature=youtu.be



I took a still from that video and here it is.

zimc.jpg




Now in my opinion that still clearly shows Zimmerman in a red and black jacket but Officer Smith swore it was a red jacket. He is a trained witness like all LE and knows the importance of what he puts in a police report and knows how to observe.

In a court of law a witness not telling the truth on one fact can draw in the questioning of other facts he swore to. I can see a lawyer asking Officer Smith if his hearing memory is any better then his visual memory.

ALL IMO
 
  • #808
It is not against the law to follow some one down the street, or one a sidewalk. Simply following is NOT a predatory act. Nothing Zimmerman did, including, if he did, asking Martin what he was doing there, was illegal. If the following Zimmerman was doing was illegal, why wasn't he arrested for that, nevermind anything else?



There are people in jail all over this country for doing exactly that. It's not legal to keep following someone around. No one has a right to make someone else feel threatened.

Following is considered a predatory act.

< mod snip > :twocents:
 
  • #809
What are we concluding from a guy walking his dog? Am I missing something?

ahh.....but the "friend" clearly stated that GZ was PATROLLING with the dog, not taking it out to pee.....and as has been stated by numerous neighborhood watch officials....PATROLLING IS NEVER A PART OF NEIGHBORHOOD WATCH.
 
  • #810
I agree...BUT if/when TM attacked him, all bets were off. TM may have escalated the situation into physical violence. It didn't matter if GZ followed him, TM had NO right to attack him. Believe me, if it comes out that GZ swung first, shot him in the back, or anything like that, I would not be arguing for that at all. Whoever started the physical conflict is ultimately responsible, though I don't think TM deserved to die by any means imo.

The only evidence that anyone (on this board) has that TM attacked anyone is the word of the person who is going to jail if he admits that he attempted to detain or that he struck TM first....he has every reason to lie and his spokes people have multiple stories, none of which make sense

I also firmly believe that even (although I sincerely doubt it) that TM did actually attack first and GZ does not have a gun, that the worst that happens is that Mr. Zimmerman might (and I say might because these things are never a certainty) have gotten his clock cleaned for him and been sporting a few bruises and contusions and a bruised ego because some kid that he wanted to intimidate got the better of him. Local LE would have arrived well before anyone was dead, and broken it up. IMO JMHO and stuff.
 
  • #811
Exactly. I agree with you. The tragedy here is in the choices that were made, unfortunately. How many of us would confront a suspicious looking person? And if we were the suspicious person, how would we react to someone coming after us? It doesn't help that the truth has been twisted or not told here, leaving my head swimming as I try to figure this out. I haven't posted much because of my confusion. But you're right, this was about choice. George chose to go after Trayvon, and he chose to pull the trigger and take his life.

This didn't have to happen, no matter what Trayvon's background or problems may or may not be. Just because he might be troubled doesn't mean in that moment he wasn't trying to protect himself from a madman with a gun. I've seen this too often in other cases - people are judged on the their past actions insted of the situation being talked about. Poor Kronk paid the price for that in Caylee's case. People still think he murdered that poor baby when he had nothing to do with it except finding her body. So Trayvon was troubled - that it makes it okay that he lost his life? He asked to be shot and killed because of his past? He had no right to defend himself? I don't think so. And who knows what other things he might have experienced - maybe he was bullied at school, or maybe someone else thought he was suspicious and came after him before. There could be other explanations for whatever reaction he had to George coming after him with a gun. I'm not just going write Trayvon off as a mindless 🤬🤬🤬🤬 who beat up George. That is not fair to him.

George also didn't have the right to become a vigilant. He doesn't get to choose who lives and who dies. He chose to pursue, and so he should take repsonsibility for his actions, not hide behind a law. Being on the neighborhood watch does not entitle him to become judge, jury, and executioner. He made a bad choice to pursue. Maybe he'll never do that again, I surely hope so. The fact is, nothing can make him look better or absolve him of what he did, not even a stand your ground law. His reputation will never be the same. I bet he'll never be asked to be on a neighborhood watch anymore. He went way beyond what he was supposed to do that night and took a life. That should weigh heavily on him. Instead, he doesn't want one ounce of responsiblity. That says a lot about him to me. I wouldn't want him free in my community to kill again. The thought that anyone could antagonize someone else, kill them, and then get away with it because of that stand your ground law is the scariest thing I've heard of in a long time.

A young life was lost here. A person chose to pursue this young man with a gun and kill him. I mourn the senseless loss of a life and cringe at the thought that the killer won't have to pay any consequences for it. What happened to truth and justice? It seems everyday both of those become smaller and smaller in this country, and that is the biggest shame of all.
Awesome post!!! You summed up my feelings perfectly!!! IMHO
 
  • #812
Stand your ground law would allow the second scenario you posed. If someone has been following me, and I perceive them to be a threat, I don't think I would have a duty to retreat if they are approaching ME.

The first scenario you mentioned, the person obviously is not threatened because they are approaching the other person. I don't think a person can disregard their own safety and then seek to have it restored by the law, which is what George Zimmerman did, IMO.

BBM

Ahh, but in the first scenario, how would you prove you were threatened if the one you attack presses charges on you for assault?
 
  • #813
They are both kids and this was a strange situation. My own kids are really smart but I can only imagine the adrenaline that was flowing when TM realized a strange guy was following him for no apparent reason.

Also, not everyone has 911 on speed-dial like George. :twocents: I don't judge Trayvon and his girlfriend based on Zimmerman's over-the-top behavior.
BBM. Trayvon must have been very scared, trying to figure out what was the deal with this strange guy who insisted on continually following him. It breaks my heart that Trayvon was a victim of a totally needless, senseless crime. And so we wait for justice.
 
  • #814
What are we concluding from a guy walking his dog? Am I missing something?

Only that it seems that Mr. Zimmerman has a penchant for dangerous things.

I love big dogs and used to raise and train rottweilers, and there was always a certain type of dog owner that I would never sell to, Mr. Zimmerman seems to fit into that category. An improperly trained and socialized rottweiler is on any given day at least as dangerous as a loaded gun and far less predictable since the firing mechanism is unknown. IMO JMHO and stuff.
 
  • #815
He didn't pick a random person. He picked a person walking through a neighborhood whom he thought was up to no good. Whether TM was actually up to no good is irrelevant in deciding whether TM was randomly picked. He looked suspicious to GZ.

It sounds totally random to me to think that a random person walking through the neighborhood looks suspicious for no reason :P
 
  • #816
oh lord, do we all think this is okay to do now??


it is NOT OKAY to just randomly follow people around! it's weird at best!


WE ALL size people up one way or another. GZ had that right too.
It was not random at all.
I may have possibly sized him up the same way, and my family is very mixed.
 
  • #817
IMO he was following Trayvon with every intent to stop him and hold him until LE got there

What do you base that on? Does he have a history of stopping and holding anyone at anytime? Hasen't he always just called 911 in the past?
 
  • #818
Similar things are being said by others we are not alowed to discuss here. Someone who cares about the Martins should go on National TV and make it clear that they do not condone that type of language. Because they are truly losing support and respect with this type of "friend." When one is part of a story that bcomes a media sensation, it is really crucial to "call out your own" when they go WAY too far. We cannot mention other cases, but believe me...the public turns on you if you tolerate "friends" like some of the "friends" jumping into this case. Zimmermann will have a ticker tape parade through Sanford if they continue to outrage and offend BEYOND FACT.

Racism is ugly on any skin hue and even when wearing a hat.

I suspect the Martin's have other concerns -- justice for the murder of their son for example -- that take precedence over soothing the delicate feelings of racial aggitators on either side of the political spectrum. I'm confident that once they begin to see justice for their murdered son they will consider addressing the broader issues of race relations, world hunger, global warming, or any other issues you care to raise with them.

In my opinion.
 
  • #819
The only evidence that anyone (on this board) has that TM attacked anyone is the word of the person who is going to jail if he admits that he attempted to detain or that he struck TM first....he has every reason to lie and his spokes people have multiple stories, none of which make sense

I also firmly believe that even (although I sincerely doubt it) that TM did actually attack first and GZ does not have a gun, that the worst that happens is that Mr. Zimmerman might (and I say might because these things are never a certainty) have gotten his clock cleaned for him and been sporting a few bruises and contusions and a bruised ego because some kid that he wanted to intimidate got the better of him. Local LE would have arrived well before anyone was dead, and broken it up. IMO JMHO and stuff.

And TM would of been arrested for assault. Don't you agree?
 
  • #820
:sick:

(from the article)
"I more or less patrolled this sector right here (holds up arms), whereas George took care of the entire complex," he said.

He added: "I would see him in the evening doing his patrol and we would wave, and he would walk his Rottweiler through the complex."


Nice to know that he too has a problem following the law. I would love to know if Zimmerman was packing during his "patrolling." I would also love to know if Taaffe has a weapon on his person when he is doing his patrolling?

--from the article:

~jmo~

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-18563_162-57403716/friend-of-martin-shooter-id-do-the-same-thing/

Like Zimmerman, Taaffe owns a .9-mm weapon. But when he goes on patrol, he said, he leaves it at home because he believes that outside the home, using lethal force has no place. That said, remember, Zimmerman had a concealed weapon's permit whereas Taaffe does not.
 
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