17 yo Trayvon Martin Shot to Death by Neighborhood Watch Captain #16

[Peliman]

not that it was "malicious" which is not the relevant measure but that he may have had "unlawful" intent in that he may have been determed to prevent TM from "getting away" thus suggesting he had the intent to unlawfully detain him. GZ determined TM was a criminal and called 911 on him and then persued him with his gun after being told not to and after misleading the operator by saying "OK" and after he had expressed his anger that these "a%$holes" always get away and since he had concluded Trayvon was up to no good and on drugs and since he followed him after expressing his concern that "he's running" what would a reasonable person conclude? That he was just following him or that he intended to initiate contact with him and detain him until the police arrived so that this "a&^hole" wouldn't get away like all the others did? I think his actions are very much up for discussion.

Ahhh illegal detainment, did GZ detain him? I don't think it would be illegal for GZ to ask him "what are you doing here?" Now if he detained him, well that's a different story, then it gets iffy. I personally don't know what happened between the two but I think there's a witness.

 

[ThoughtFox]

I was trying to make the point that a single incident of following someone doesn't equal stalking.

No, but it could fit the definition of assault. In assault, even before anything happens, they take into account the fear factor that violence is imminent. And in this case it makes sense because George called Trayvon several names on the 911 tapes, said he was following him, and was packing a gun. If Trayvon felt threatened, he should have.

From Florida Statute

784.011 Assault.—
(1) An “assault” is an intentional, unlawful threat by word or act to do violence to the person of another, coupled with an apparent ability to do so, and doing some act which creates a well-founded fear in such other person that such violence is imminent.
(2) Whoever commits an assault shall be guilty of a misdemeanor of the second degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082 or s. 775.083.

 

[Sensei]

I don't know about speed dial, and I don't know if GZ stopped and started anything after the dispatcher suggested that he didn't need to follow. It was one incident. IMO

GZ had two indications that what he was doing was just not ok. He had the dispacher discouraging him and he had every indication that his following was unwelcome when TM attempted to run and get away...yet he persisted, even in the face of not having seen TM do anything at all that would suggest let alone show that he was going to do something criminal. And he pursued with a loaded gun....now a young man is dead

So very avoidable at so many differnt points but none of them controlled by TM IMO JMHO and stuff.

 

[ThoughtFox]

Just my take, the 911 dispatcher isn't vague. Z had two choices, listen, back off and wait for the police, or start following/stalking again.


I am so glad it's on tape.

Yes, thank God. One of the things that dispatcher did right was to ask George if he was following Trayvon.

 

[HiHater]

Still doesn't answer the question if then can the one who feels threatened go to the callers house and beat them up.

Or if one feels threatened from someone following them, can they wait until that person gets close to them then start wailing on them.

Stand your ground law would allow the second scenario you posed. If someone has been following me, and I perceive them to be a threat, I don't think I would have a duty to retreat if they are approaching ME.

The first scenario you mentioned, the person obviously is not threatened because they are approaching the other person. I don't think a person can disregard their own safety and then seek to have it restored by the law, which is what George Zimmerman did, IMO.

 

[Elley Mae]

Yes, thank God. One of the things that dispatcher did right was to ask George if he was following Trayvon.

Right! Following versus stalking.

 

[Adrienne37]

oh lord, do we all think this is okay to do now??


it is NOT OKAY to just randomly follow people around! it's weird at best!

Apparently the police department doesn't condone this type of behavior since they put out their notice to the media that they would not tolerate them following people around looking for an interview.<Mod Snip>~jmo~

 

[suzihawk]

Yet somehow to me that paints a picture of someone who was more concerned about strutting around with his big intimidating rottweiler and his loaded gun, than someone who was truly concerned with the safety of others. IMO JMHO and stuff.

Yeah, I caught that as well. I wasn't going to point it out 'cause it's legal and all, ya know.

 

[HiHater]

GZ had two indications that what he was doing was just not ok. He had the dispacher discouraging him and he had every indication that his following was unwelcome when TM attempted to run and get away...yet he persisted, even in the face of not having seen TM do anything at all that would suggest let alone show that he was going to do something criminal. And he pursued with a loaded gun....now a young man is dead

So very avoidable at so many differnt points but none of them controlled by TM IMO JMHO and stuff.

He also had training that told him not to pursue or chase a suspect. He had that in the NW program and probably as a part of the Citizen's Police Academy he attended. (Not sure if that's the exact name of the program)

JMO MOO IMO

 

[w1df10wr]

Somehow I missed that Taafe was also a volunteer of his NW program.

Hmm... very interesting!


Frank Taaffe is his neighbor. Over the last year, they both guarded their subdivision as crime-watch volunteers.


"I more or less patrolled this sector right here (holds up arms), whereas George took care of the entire complex," he said.


He added: "I would see him in the evening doing his patrol and we would wave, and he would walk his Rottweiler through the complex."


"Both looking for the same thing, you and he?" Strassmann asked.


"Yes. And George went above and beyond the call of duty. He was diligent and had a real passion and concern for the safety of all the residents here at Twin Lakes."

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-18563_162-57403716/friend-of-martin-shooter-id-do-the-same-thing/

From the link-

~"Do you think he did the right thing by confronting Treyvon Martin?"

"Yes."~ ---

GZ's own friend / neighbor is confirming that GZ confronted TM? Wish there was a little more detail from both the reporter and FT.

 

[Horace Finklestein]

oh lord, do we all think this is okay to do now??


it is NOT OKAY to just randomly follow people around! it's weird at best!

Ok...this was not "random". He thought TM was up to no good. GZ didn't just pick a random person to follow. If a person you've never seen before is following you...do you attack them? I don't think so, it's not "defending yourself".

 

[marlame]

Still doesn't answer the question if then can the one who feels threatened go to the callers house and beat them up.

Or if one feels threatened from someone following them, can they wait until that person gets close to them then start wailing on them.

I don't know about going to their house...
But, if the stalker is in the middle of committing the crime of STALKING-- YES!!! The person being STALKED would have the RIGHT to defend themselves!

"can they wait until that person gets close to them then start wailing on them"? Do you mean AFTER they ask the person WHY they are following them?

jmho~

 

[ThoughtFox]

Still doesn't answer the question if then can the one who feels threatened go to the callers house and beat them up.

Or if one feels threatened from someone following them, can they wait until that person gets close to them then start wailing on them.

One: Trayvon didn't go to Zimmerman's house. I'm not sure where you got that idea?

Two: Then you must agree that Trayvon had a right to "wail on" Zimmerman, although Trayvon has been painted as some kind of for defending himself.

Look - Trayvon was the one who was almost to his back door. He was the one whom the "castle doctrine" protected. Zimmerman acted as if he was Lord of the Manor and owned every unit in that subdivision, but he didn't. He was way out of his territory, which really only included his own home.

Being a Neighborhood Watch Captain or whatever didn't give him the right to question suspects, to stalk his neighbors, or to shoot anyone.

If anyone ever gave George the impression that his job included any of that, then they should be held accountable too, and that includes his neighborhood association.

 

[Horace Finklestein]

According to Florida Law it DOES!

Section 784.048. STALKING; DEFINITIONS; PENALTIES. 1997.

(1) As used in this section, the term:

(a) "Harass" means to engage in a course of conduct directed at a specific person that causes substantial emotional distress in such person and serves no legitimate purpose.

(b) "Course of conduct" means a pattern a conduct composed of series of acts over a period of time, however short, evidencing a continuity of purpose. Constitutionally protected activity is not included within the meaning of "course of conduct." Such constitutionally protected activity includes picketing or other organized protests.

(c) "Credible threat" means a threat made with the intent to cause the person who is the target of the threat to reasonably fear for his or her safety. The threat must be against the life of, or a threat to cause bodily injury to, a person.

(2) Any person who willfully, maliciously, and repeatedly follows or harasses another person commits the offense of stalking, a misdemeanor of the first degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082 or s. 775.083.


JMHO~

What GZ did comes nowhere near meeting all of these elements.

 

[Sensei]

Ok...this was not "random". He thought TM was up to no good. GZ didn't just pick a random person to follow. If a person you've never seen before is following you...do you attack them? I don't think so, it's not "defending yourself".

But he had already exercised his remedy for when you see a suspicious person he had called LE. Unless you actually SEE someone in the act of committing a felony it is not your duty, your job, or even welcome help to the local LE to follow them and or confront them....It was within GZ's right to believe that TM was up to no good. but he crossed the line when he decided to DO something about it and follow him. IMO JMHO and stuff.

 

[Horace Finklestein]

Sensei, you are a much nicer person than I am.

What are we concluding from a guy walking his dog? Am I missing something?

 

[Donjeta]

Ok...this was not "random". He thought TM was up to no good. GZ didn't just pick a random person to follow. If a person you've never seen before is following you...do you attack them? I don't think so, it's not "defending yourself".

It may not have been random to GZ if it was a pattern to him to think all black teens are up to no good but it was completely random and unjustified to TM.
GZ may have thought whatever but he picked a random black person to follow for no good reason at all.

 

[marlame]

Ok...this was not "random". He thought TM was up to no good. GZ didn't just pick a random person to follow. If a person you've never seen before is following you...do you attack them? I don't think so, it's not "defending yourself".

Just because GZ thought Trayvon was "up to no good" does not make it fact! GZ is NOT judge & jury. For heaven's sake, GZ is not even LE!

After calling 911, GZ had fulfilled his role as a Neighborhood Watch Captain. It is up to LE to investigate and determine if Trayvon was "up to no good". Sadly, GZ didn't stay in his truck!

jmho~

 

[Horace Finklestein]

But he had already exercised his remedy for when you see a suspicious person he had called LE. Unless you actually SEE someone in the act of committing a felony it is not your duty, your job, or even welcome help to the local LE to follow them and or confront them....It was within GZ's right to believe that TM was up to no good. but he crossed the line when he decided to DO something about it and follow him. IMO JMHO and stuff.

I agree...BUT if/when TM attacked him, all bets were off. TM may have escalated the situation into physical violence. It didn't matter if GZ followed him, TM had NO right to attack him. Believe me, if it comes out that GZ swung first, shot him in the back, or anything like that, I would not be arguing for that at all. Whoever started the physical conflict is ultimately responsible, though I don't think TM deserved to die by any means imo.

 

[Horace Finklestein]

Just because GZ thought Trayvon was "up to no good" does not make it fact! GZ is NOT judge & jury. For heaven's sake, GZ is not even LE!

After calling 911, GZ had fulfilled his role as a Neighborhood Watch Captain. It is up to LE to investigate and determine if Trayvon was "up to no good". Sadly, GZ didn't stay in his truck!

jmho~

I never said it made it a fact, it simply means that he had a reason to follow TM in his mind. He didn't randomly follow him - that comment was in response to someone implying I thought it was ok to "randomly follow people".