17 yo Trayvon Martin Shot to Death by Neighborhood Watch Captain #24

[magnolia]

I agree stand your ground states that. And in the scenario that I provided in my previous post, if I scared away the intruder and then followed them around the neighborhood, and they pulled a gun, I could shoot to defend myself. But it would be a self-defense issue for the courts to decide; it would not be a stand your ground issue. And even with my self-defense claim, I would no doubt have some legal liability in the matter once it became known that the immediate threat had left but I chose to pursue it.

Now, maybe GZ did feel he had to use force to protect himself once the fight started. I wasn't there so I have no way of knowing one way or the other. But even if this is so, it would be a self-defense issue that has nothing to do with stand your ground, IMO. And GZ would have some liability in that he was not in harm's way until he decided to put himself there. He wes told LE was on the way and he did not need to follow Trayvon; he followed him anway.

Trayvon may have been perceived as a threat by GZ. But he was not an immediate threat, as he was walking away from GZ. If Trayvon at some point became an immediate threat to GZ it was due to GZ putting himself in that position.

There are two possible defenses here, IMO: Self-defense and stand your ground. I do not feel that stand you ground applies. But that's my opinion based on what we know currently. My opinion may change later, or it may not.

I really don't think it matters whether GZ put himself in that position or not. It is all about what happened after the physical contact. IMO

 

[Donjeta]

I'm interested in why this case has become such a lightening rod for hate.

Just last week there were two men from Tulsa who went out at night, armed, with the intent of shooting Black people and they did - 5 of them - totally innocent people they had no beef with whatsoever.

Why are they being ignored, and George Zimmerman probably wouldn't survive outside of the jail right now?

I guess I didn't ever really understand the seething hate people have for CA either, how she's different from any other mom who kills their darling child and then lies about it.

It's baffling why the public becomes riveted on certain cases, with a blood lust for vengeance, and other cases are pretty much ignored that seem much worse to me.

I think there are several factors.
The amount of media, of course. I think the Sunshine laws made a difference in the CA case because there was a lot for the media to report on and more to hate, so to speak. Cases that are kept close to the vest tend to go away faster, in the media and people's minds because it's hard to be riveted on a case when there are never any updates. TM has got a lot of media too, for obvious reasons. Maybe less from now on because the docs were sealed.

A second factor is IMO the swiftness of resolution. If LE arrests the suspects within a few days and the crime is treated as a closed case it does not keep them on the edge of their seats like the cases in which there is a mystery about whodunit and whathappened and whowillbenext or fear that the obvious suspects are never arrested and the victim will never get justice. If it's a quick arrest people perceive that the justice system is gonna do its job and don't have to worry so much. If they think the guilty parties got away with it they are more upset.

A third factor IMO is the sideshow. In the CA case there was a lot of sideshow to keep people appalled even when CA herself was doing nothing to excite comment. Here we've got the political figures and the questions about the police work.

 

[mercuriod]

There is something or the Hornsby web site about this.
I have not read it recently.
But seems if your life is threatened even outside of your home
you can shoot and use this law.
Here is his site....
Not sure if it is no there now.
http://blog.richardhornsby.com/

That is correct the SYG in Florida means whatever ground you happen to be standing on. The difference is you can not initiate a confrontation, have the other person walk away from the confrontation, then you pursue the other person who is trying to get away and you then kill them.

 

[gitana1]

You call this justice :what: :what: :what: :what: :what: :what:
without knowing all the detail because we do not know all the details.
IMO if he did do any of what you said he should be in jail.
But again we still wait to have FACTS.
Unless you are psychic I do not think you know more then we ALL know.

Hi friend! I call it the beginning of justice. When there is no arrest at all in a case where all the facts are not known, it's easy to see why some feel justice has not occurred. Most of us simply wanted Zimmerman to answer charges and have his day in court.

 

[flourish]

And I pray lease: that Trayvon and his family get justice. Since justice is subjective, I am just gonna say that justice to me would be life without parole. If someone wants to profile, hunt, and kill black kids then I don't want them in my society.

In my opinion.

You call this justice :what: :what: :what: :what: :what: :what:
without knowing all the detail because we do not know all the details.
IMO if he did do any of what you said he should be in jail.
But again we still wait to have FACTS.
Unless you are psychic I do not think you know more then we ALL know.

Uh, the poster clearly states that justice is subjective and the post is clearly the poster's opinion. Opinions can be subject to change as more information becomes available. Also, please note the "If" in the last sentence...no indication of claimed psychic ability that I can see!

 

[gitana1]

what is the process to find another judge? how many are in teh county and would they volunteer?

I haven't had time to read each page of the thread yet. What's the issue with this judge? TIA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[magnolia]

Some legal experts are interpreting the law in the manner Hornsby states. Some are not. I have a feeling this law will be subject to judicial clarification at some point in the future, possibly via this case. If you are correct, then Zimmerman will likely walk.

No doubt,this will be a very interesting case to follow.

 

[Gin]

Oops. In one of my last posts, I mentioned racial politics as a reason this case is getting so much attention. I thought it was okay because I was answering and not discussing whether there has been such injustice here. Maybe not! I will be careful and try to tread lightly. Apologies if I was out of line!

gitana1,
FWIW I think you both tread lightly, and are very respectful in your posts. I find your comments thoughtful, educational, and I really appreciate the perspective they provide.

 

[magnolia]

That is correct the SYG in Florida means whatever ground you happen to be standing on. The difference is you can not initiate a confrontation, have the other person walk away from the confrontation, then you pursue the other person who is trying to get away and you then kill them.

We don't know this is exactly the way it happened though. Did GZ confront Trayvon?

 

[gitana1]

I would think you are going to start seeing comparisons to this case as time moves forward.

Bernhard Goetz - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Kind of. Except the guys he shot were trying to mug him. The facts here per the call to police by Zimmerman, what was found on Trayvon's body, the statements by the girlfriend, do not at all indicate Trayvon was a looking for trouble. Instead, he was a kid trying to get home in the rain. Big difference to me.

Also, Goetz illegally carried a gun while Zimmerman did not.

But, Zimmerman and Goetz may be similar personalities, IMO and I do understand the comparison.

ETA: I can't be sure about my last statement, in retrospect. Goetz had been assaulted before and I think he was scared, and not merely hunting "bad guys" as a self-appointed cop wanna' be.

 

[shadowraiths]

Actually I do read some body language, not an expert, but pretty good at it.
this is what I see.
Early on he looked to the right - I imagine he looked up at a camera.
(in NY - I have seen cameras on both sides) Ithink that is what that was,
He does have a often blink. Is it a nervouse condition? it can be but it is not a rolling of the eyes.

Yeah, I thought the same thing (i.e., looking up at the camera), but the actual eye movement seems unnatural, which led me to wonder if he might have some sort of neurological thing going on. Then, I read the commissary list, and saw the contact solution. Don't know for certain, if wearing contacts and having something in your eye, for example, can result in that sort of 'twitch.' Just a guess. Either way, I totally agree that he wasn't "rolling his eyes" (aka a sign of disrespect).

That aside, and speaking of that hearing, he looks emotionally beaten down to me. I must admit, I feel sorry for the guy. While I, personally, am of the opinion that he acted in a cop wannabe fashion, I think the guy has been vilified beyond actions that have yet to be proven in a court of law.

 

[Deleted member 39678]

I haven't had time to read each page of the thread yet. What's the issue with this judge? TIA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The judge hearing the George Zimmerman case today announced that her husband works for the law firm of Mark NeJame, who's been hired to act as a CNN analyst for this case.

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com...status-hearing-second-degree-murder-affidavit

 

[grammieto5]

There is something or the Hornsby web site about this.
I have not read it recently.
But seems if your life is threatened even outside of your home
you can shoot and use this law.
Here is his site....
Not sure if it is no there now.
http://blog.richardhornsby.com/

Are you talking about #1 Retreat to the Wall?

 

[gitana1]

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com...status-hearing-second-degree-murder-affidavit

Thanks, Ranch. Yeah, we need a case with no question as to the fairness of the proceedings. I'd also like a judge who has a bunch of experience. Although that is no guarantee.

 

[LolaMoon08]

We don't know this is exactly the way it happened though.

I think George's own words to LE that night prove that this is exactly what happened?

George clearly states that Trayvon is running away.

George gets out of his truck with the mindframe that "these a**holes always get away" and that Trayvon was a "f***ing punk."

LE clearly tell George, "we don't need you to be doing that." Maybe not a direct order, but a direct request from LE that George ignored. He was told not to follow Trayvon and he was told that LE was on the way.

I think it is pretty clear that George was not going back to his truck because he would have told LE that they could find him in a black (insert make/model) truck. He instead told LE that he needed them to call HIM back so that he could tell them where he was which shows, IMO, that George was not going to follow LE's directions to stop following Trayvon and he was "intent" on finding Trayvon.

Trayvon was not looking for a confrontation... George Zimmerman was.

Now what happened after George caught up with Trayvon, we are going to have to piece together once we have more facts. I refuse to go by what George's family says because it's insulting and plays like a really badly written script.

MOO

 

[katydid23]

I haven't had time to read each page of the thread yet. What's the issue with this judge? TIA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The judge is married to Mark NeJames law partner. And NeJames was communicating with GZ and helped him secure his present attorney.

 

[uvamerica]

Does anyone know if there are camera's in the gated community ? maybe one at the gate or the clubhouse ?

 

[grandmaj]

The other thing I keep wondering about is if there is a witness, or witnesses that we haven't heard from in the news. Someone who kept their counsel and talked only to investigators.

 

[frenchvixen]

Hi friend! I call it the beginning of justice. When there is no arrest at all in a case where all the facts are not known, it's easy to see why some feel justice has not occurred. Most of us simply wanted Zimmerman to answer charges and have his day in court.

I remember seeing what was needed to using SYG as a defense and one of them is that you were supposed to have been in that place (meaning you can't rob a bank and then use SYG). My question is did GZ belong there? He did not live in that part of the complex. So, once the 911 operator told him to back off did he wander off in territory that he did not belong in and thus he does not satisfy the requirements necessary for standing his ground?

 

[annalia]

Does anyone know if there are camera's in the gated community ? maybe one at the gate or the clubhouse ?

I recall someone posting a picture of a camera, ( maybe it was at the entrance?) and then some discussion on whether it was operable, and whether or not anyone looked at it.

JMHO