17 yo Trayvon Martin Shot to Death by Neighborhood Watch Captain #31

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  • #821
So a Mayor can take over a police investigation and release evidence in it? I find that hard to believe.
No. In Sanford, the Mayor cuts ribbons and has a vote on the city commission.

It was The City Manager, Norton Bonaparte, Jr. who encouraged the Police to disclose the calls and not sure what else. Bonaparte was acting in the interests of being transparent. He had lost his last job in Topeka (I think) when there was a percieved lack of transparency, thus he didn't want to see that repeated. And, normally, it might not matter that the materials were released to the public. But, obviously, this case is out of the ordinary.

I think his heart was in the right place, he just might not have realized at the time just how deceptive the Police were being with their report. (That's my opinion.}
 
  • #822
IF you believe TM gf then TM confronted GZ when he first asked "Why are you following me" then GZ asked "What are you doing here".If TM then punched GZ and they began wrestling around on the ground TM might have felt GZ gun when he was on top of him.IF GZ was back on his way to his truck like he said he was that makes TM the aggressor not GZ. I am sure if GZ was waving a gun around TM would never have punched him in the nose and broke it,unfortunately IMO TM did not realize he was attacking an armed man.GZ was not acting against the law until he thought he had no choice IMO.What if when everything comes out it shows GZ was telling the truth do you still think he deserves to spend life in jail? I sure do not.IMO,JMO and all that jazz.

He made the decision to follow a frightened kid around, in the dark, in the rain, when the kid had already run away at least once, and after police asked him to stop. The end result was a murdered innocent child, a life snuffed out. Forever.

Of COURSE he should spend the rest of his life in prison.

MOO, etc
 
  • #823
If Zimmerman's jacket was not zipped then he was not carrying a concealed weapon.

I don't have the link but on one of FT's appearances he insisted that the reason GZ had no blood on his jacket was that his coat had been zipped up. The interviewer (NG or JVM) pointed out that GZ's jacket was unzipped at the SPD, but FT said the officers unzipped it for him.

I'm too tired tonight to hunt down the interview - it was sometime after the SPD video came out, obviously.

IMO, JMO, etc.
 
  • #824
Right, the victims family. And there are about FOUR attorneys that I have seen representing the Martin family, and they are covering the airwaves, and the radio waves and speaking on 5 ot 6 shows a day at least. Probably more.

And O'mara, by himself, goes on a couple, and everyone attacks him for it.

IMO, the reason he is being attacked for it is IIRC he stated early on that he would not try the case in the media.

Yet that exactly what he seems to be trying to do.

For example: apologizing for GZ's apology? Come on.
 
  • #825
IF we ever see any authenticated medical records showing that GZ did in fact have a broken nose, and that it was in fact broken the night of the incident, and not before and not after…I will be amazed and appalled that I have lived so long and seen so many similar injuries and never seen one that had no significant swelling and such minimal bleeding that it could be cleaned up in the back of a patrol car and be virtually unnoticeable 35 minutes later, and that the person sporting that broken nose could hold his head down, and move his head freely with no signs of distress or breathing problems.

I will also be fascinated and impressed to discover that TM could land a punch that did that kind of damage without doing himself an injury to his own hands…and completely underwhelmed that a grown man could be attacked by an unarmed teen who as far as has been reported has no formal training in boxing or martial arts and yet not be able to land a single blow that shows that he was in a struggle before he “HAD” to shoot him point blank in the chest.

I find the wording so similar, Do you live around here, and what are you doing around here that I do not have a problem connecting what Chief Lee claimed was said and what the girlfriend claims was said….

No matter which way I try to look at it, it is clear that there is no evidence what so ever that Trayvon was angry, or in a foul mood, spoiling for a fight or ready to punch someone out at the slightest provocation….and there is more than ample evidence and some of it from his own mouth that GZ WAS looking for trouble, and was convinced that he had already found some with some of those A@##$% that always get away, because this punk looked like he was on drugs or up to no good or something….it is not hard for me to determine who was MOST LIKELY to have been the aggressor in that situation and it was the man with the gun not the unarmed teenager…IMO JMHO and stuff.

My opinions are subject to change with credible evidence but thus far there is no credible evidence that points in another direction.

Wow! Love this post :rocker:
 
  • #826
Zimmerman being tracked by sensitive GPS device

http://www.boston.com/news/nation/a...id=Boston.com+/+Boston+Globe+--+National+News


ORLANDO, Fla.—Wherever George Zimmerman went after he was released on bond from a Florida jail, a sensitive GPS device will pinpoint his location for authorities and alert them if he drifts even a few feet away from where he is allowed.

Zimmerman, who is charged with second-degree murder in the killing of 17-year-old Trayvon Martin, went into hiding Monday as he awaits trial. He must pay an $8-a-day fee to use the device, which is generally used to track people charged in domestic violence cases.
------

Computer software that is synched to the device enables "inclusionary zones" to establish where a person can go. It also can report whether the user is being compliant with release conditions like curfews. Zimmerman has been asked to observe a curfew between 7 p.m. and 6 a.m.

More at link.....
 
  • #827
IF you believe TM gf then TM confronted GZ when he first asked "Why are you following me" then GZ asked "What are you doing here".If TM then punched GZ and they began wrestling around on the ground TM might have felt GZ gun when he was on top of him.IF GZ was back on his way to his truck like he said he was that makes TM the aggressor not GZ. I am sure if GZ was waving a gun around TM would never have punched him in the nose and broke it,unfortunately IMO TM did not realize he was attacking an armed man.GZ was not acting against the law until he thought he had no choice IMO.What if when everything comes out it shows GZ was telling the truth do you still think he deserves to spend life in jail? I sure do not.IMO,JMO and all that jazz.

Let me put it to you this way: if a person that had been following me in the dark suddenly confronted me angrily, and answered my question of "Why are you following me?" with his own question of "What are you doing here?" as though he were actually entitled to demand that information from me, my response would not be polite, or even civil, and would probably include some not-so-nice words about the not-so-nice place where that person could go. My right to walk in an area where I have every right to be is not superseded by a another person's desire to play rent-a-cop, and I think that kind of mind set assumes Zimmerman had some sort of authority when, in reality, he had absolutely none at all to follow, confront, or question Martin.

What I wouldn't do, however, is just attack that person out of hand for it, because I'm not a violent person. I don't think anyone would do that unless they already have a propensity for violence, and it has been attested to repeatedly by all who knew Martin that he wasn't a violent person in the least. Zimmerman, however, DOES have a record of violent behavior, and, IMO, I don't think he would have hesitated to lay hands on Martin if he didn't feel like he was getting the answers he wanted.

I will also say that when and how the gun was made known is a real point of contention for me. For one thing, Martin couldn't have initiated an attack over the gun unless it was already out, and Zimmerman claims it was in his waistband; he said at one point that Martin saw it in his pants and tried to pull it out when they were already down and wrestling.

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2012/04/02/us/the-events-leading-to-the-shooting-of-trayvon-martin.html NOTE: I like the nifty interactive map. It's all high-tech and stuff. :wink:

And that would have to mean that Martin, who has no history or record of violence at all, decided to jump Zimmerman and darn near beat him to death without even knowing he had a weapon, which doesn't sound all that plausible.

The alternative is that the gun was out, and a teen that previously seemed set on evading and getting away, suddenly grow a set of cajones the size of watermelons and decide to aggressively confront a man with a gun. Again, doesn't sound all that plausible to me.

I don't know how the gun came into play, but I personally suspect that Zimmerman, fueled on certainty and feeling confident knowing that he was armed and police were on the way, confronted Trayvon and questioned him angrily (as the gf overheard). But I can't imagine that once he was face to face with the kid he'd been trying to catch up to that he would just stand around with his hands to himself, can you? So I think he grabbed this kid by the arm so he couldn't get away and Trayvon struggled (pulls away, maybe started swinging), so Zimmerman pulled the gun, and that's when the fight over the gun started. That's my opinion, but I think it's a lot more plausible than what Zimmerman is trying to sell us.

Does starting an altercation and then pulling a gun on someone because you can't subdue them any other way qualify as self-defense? I don't think it does. And considering that Zimmerman and the truth don't appear to be the best of friends, I would be shocked to my toes if his story is even close to being true.
 
  • #828
So even if GZ acted within the law, you believe it has to go to trial just to appease the public?If there was a problem with law enforcement not doing their job correctly ,then it will come out and be dealt with.But IMO to say GZ even if covered under the SYG law needs to go to trial JMO is not what should happen under the law he should never have been arrested but due to outside groups and pressure he was.This is a very slippery slop for all of us IMO if the law can be disregarded just so there is no violence is blackmail to me.

IMO and only MO, if GZ acted within the law then this is a monsterously bad law...it offends common sense and ethics. If you are allowed to create a situation which then allows you to kill an innocent and not complicit party to the situation that you created and claim that it was unavoidable self defense then yes that is in fact a very slippery slope but not in the way that you mean it....it means that nobody is safe, it is exactly as Chris Texas previously stated a leave no witness law....as long as the other person is dead you will be ok just say it was Self Defense, and if it takes pressure from outside groups and civil disobedience to get the lawmakers to forego the money prestige and other enticements of the gun lobbyists then so be it.

Even if he is covered under a monstrosity of a law, he is no pure and untainted innocent who is wrongfully convicted...he made his choices and they were BAD...and to let him walk will only entice him and others to make the same bad choices with no consequences. IMO JMHO and stuff.
 
  • #829
ABC News had more detail:

BBM

7-11 has the video of Trayvon buying the Iced tea and Skittles and hopefully he was still talking to his gf while he was walking around the store and paying. She had two calls with him at, IIRC, 7:04 and then 7:12 PM.

From GZ's call to LE, he can be heard running (following) Trayvon @ 07:11:50 or 7:11:58 (I can't read my notes) until 07:12:15. He was told not to follow TM @)7:12. He continued to run for another 15 secs after being told not to.

By that time Trayvon was on the phone with his gf and GZ can be heard fiddling with something metal (Clicking and then knocking noises begin when he stops running.) He stays on the phone with the dispatcher until 7:13:40:18. Trayvon is shot sometime within just two minutes and a few seconds. The call with the gf ended at 7:16 so even if T-Mobile rounds up then GZ was very near TM by 7:14 PM.
 
  • #830
Answering for myself...

NO. Of course not. In my opinion the minute Zimmerman escalated the situation he negated any right to claim self-defense as a justification for homicide. At that point the only person with any 'right' to a claim of self defense, or standing his ground, was Trayvon.

If Zimmerman escalated the situation, provoced the confrontation, then lost control of things, he does not then have the right (in my opinion) to claim that his loss of control justified Trayon's death.

It's like this. If I go running into a grade school with a chainsaw screaming at redline, and some heroic teacher tries to take it away, I am not then justified in killing the teacher and calling it self defense. Trayvon was the guy the stand your ground law addresses. He was the guy minding his own business, he was the guy who wasn't required to retreat, he was the person allowed to use any force necessary to defend himself from what hge likely believed was a homicidal maniac with a gun.
-----------------------------------

:clap: :clap::clap::clap::goodpost:
 
  • #831
WOW watching Lawrence O'Donnell and Bonaparte(sp) said it is about money not letting Chief Lee go they want to wait until investigation over..No link just heard it so will add.........IMHO JMHO and all that and Charles Blow cannot believe it and the no confidence vote hurts their position

What is meant by, 'it is about money'?
 
  • #832
I disagree. This is going to trial whatever the SYG law might say. Or, I should say, it better go to trial or there is the potential for some real violence. It seems to me that a whole lot of folks -- particularly on the right -- are taking a perverse pleasure in defending both Zimmerman and this rather insane law, and going beyond that to outright provocation of people who have been remarkably patient thus far.

But you can only push so far. In this case, the black community has not only suffered through the death of a child and the police indifference that followed, but they have quietly tolerated a non-stop stream of attacks on the victim, attacks on the victim's family, and even outright racist hate posted on mainstream news websites and even the statements of public figures.

This case needs to go to trial. But that's only the beginning.

The people deserve and need real and complete answers as to what exactly happened within the law enforcement community. This nonsense needs to stop, the people responsible need to be in jail, and laws like this one (which, in my opinion, is good in theory) need serious clarification. As it stands, it might as well be called the "leave no living witnesses" law.

MOO etc

Respectfully, may I say

as a 'person on the right'
I happen to agree with you;)
 
  • #833
  • #834
I don't have the link but on one of FT's appearances he insisted that the reason GZ had no blood on his jacket was that his coat had been zipped up. The interviewer (NG or JVM) pointed out that GZ's jacket was unzipped at the SPD, but FT said the officers unzipped it for him.

I'm too tired tonight to hunt down the interview - it was sometime after the SPD video came out, obviously.

IMO, JMO, etc.

What I am saying is I think it is illegal for him to carry the gun in view. He has to keep it concealed.

I think he showed Trayvon that gun.
 
  • #835
Since he has seen the facts and we have not, I tend to believe GZ acted under the SYG law.Lee made a mistake saying GZ said "hey do you live here"instead of what TM gf said "what are you doing here" IMo not a big deal.If I spent 30 yrs doing my job with Le and people who had no idea of the facts of this case saying the police were not doing their job I would be annoyed too.JMO He is a scapegoat.

BBM

I think it makes a big difference. One is a question, the other sounds accusatory. Tone of voice would matter very much.
 
  • #836
What I am saying is I think it is illegal for him to carry the gun in view. He has to keep it concealed.

I think he showed Trayvon that gun.

Think he wanted to give the impression of being LE?
 
  • #837
What I am saying is I think it is illegal for him to carry the gun in view. He has to keep it concealed.

I think he showed Trayvon that gun.

I also think he showed Trayvon that Gun....If they were in fact rolling around or Trayvon was on top of GZ...that is an extremely awkward position to spot a gun from, since in that type of struggle your focus is NOT going to be on someone's waistband...and with the flashlights and phones that hook on belts I doubt that a kid is going to be able to tell the difference between a holstered gun and any other thing cell phone, I pod, or whatever various things that people carry on their person. For that reason I think that story is a bunch of hooey...IMO JMHO and stuff.
 
  • #838
IMO and only MO, if GZ acted within the law then this is a monsterously bad law...it offends common sense and ethics. If you are allowed to create a situation which then allows you to kill an innocent and not complicit party to the situation that you created and claim that it was unavoidable self defense then yes that is in fact a very slippery slope but not in the way that you mean it....it means that nobody is safe, it is exactly as Chris Texas previously stated a leave no witness law....as long as the other person is dead you will be ok just say it was Self Defense, and if it takes pressure from outside groups and civil disobedience to get the lawmakers to forego the money prestige and other enticements of the gun lobbyists then so be it.

Even if he is covered under a monstrosity of a law, he is no pure and untainted innocent who is wrongfully convicted...he made his choices and they were BAD...and to let him walk will only entice him and others to make the same bad choices with no consequences. IMO JMHO and stuff.

I've played the scenario over and over in my head plugging different ages, races, sexes. Even with two people exactly the same age, sex and race it is a person creating a conflict where there was none. The law seems to give someone the right to hunt another human being. There appears to be no standing of ground unless it was Trayvon standing his. I'm not against guns. It is a right guaranteed by the constitution but I am for common sense. Excellent post Sensei.
 
  • #839
Not only is it unprofessional, but the context of the statement implies that Zimmerman approached Trayvon, and thus far the stories that we have heard all claim that Zimmerman had broken off following Trayvon, that he was innocently looking for an address, or was going back to his vehicle, and was somehow surprised and sucker punched breaking his nose and rendering him unable to defend himself except by shooting. This statement where the Police Chief says that you shouldn't be attacked for asking if you live here sounds very much as if Zimmerman approached Trayvon, who we know was at that time on the phone. No circling around and lying in wait, no sucker punch and no attack from behind....So if Zimmerman got punched and his nose broken, IMO it was because he attempted to stop Trayvon by putting his hands on him first, catching his arm, or clothing....Then maybe he got punched, but IMO that means that the one who is now deceased was standing his ground NOT Zimmerman.

I still find it nearly impossible to believe that a man armed with a loaded gun could possibly have found himself in fear of his life from an unarmed teenager, and not have punched or kicked or scratched him...basically lay there like a limp noodle and got beaten until he was afraid for his life and never landed a single blow, and that the teenager managed to punch his lights out making him fear for his life without bruising his knuckles, or getting a single mark on him. Just strains credibility for me IMO JMHO and stuff.

I've said it a few times but IMO, TM was approached, possibly grabbed, touched, or shoved up against the outside wall in the space between one of the homes. IMO, the elbow of the sleeve of Trayvon's hooded sweatshirt should be tested for GZ's DNA. It is my belief that GZ laid hands on TM and Trayvon did the natural next thing and elbowed GZ causing him to loose his balance and fall backwards. Infuriated GZ probably did what he has done so many times before...he went after Trayvon and this time he happened to be armed with a 9MM semi-automatic loaded with hollow point bullets.

Witnesses say that they heard voices and then the yelling which moved toward where TM was ultimately shot.
 
  • #840
Question for the legal types here:

What are the arguments for and against keeping the records sealed at this point?
 
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