17 yo Trayvon Martin Shot to Death by Neighborhood Watch Captain #32

[Nova]

Ya know, it could be just me but I think the death penalty for speeding is a little on the tough side! :waitasec:

Logically, I understand it. Emotionally, I never will.

There are so many things I don't understand.

I don't understand why 300 million Americans all need to carry handguns.

But if we do, why must they be concealed? Wouldn't they serve as better deterrents if they were visible?

As for Florida law, it seems that you can take your concealed weapon, track down any friend or stranger, provoke an argument and then use that as an excuse to kill.

Even better, do it in the dark when nobody is looking. Then the State is supposed to just take your word for what happened.

 

[IzzyBlanche]

As for the possibility of Zimmerman drinking and slurring words on the night of Trayvon's murder, we do know from at least one article that he liked to drink and hang with the girls. I believe his former coworker stated he was like Jekyll and Hyde and when he snapped, he snapped. to describe him were When the dude snapped, he snapped.”


~jmo~

And don't forget, in the Lawrence O'Donnell interview GZ's friend Joe Oliver brought up GZ's drinking three times IIRC without being prompted any of those times.

:waitasec:

 

[Sensei]

It is odd . It makes me wonder if the cop who took the pic had even checked on Trayvon before pulling out his phone and taking pics of GZ's head. And wasn't that pic taken 2 minutes after the shooting ? :banghead:

As do I, but as I mentioned earlier, medical people document, that is what we do, we document with rulers, and photos and written statements and progress notes, there is a saying, if it is not documented then it wasn't done...and I find it hard to believe that this is the only picture of GZ's injuries since there should have been pics taken at the Police station both before and after he was cleaned up with scale and then described and so forth and I will be highly incensed if there isn't, if there are and we get to see them then we will know more. IMO JMHO and stuff.

 

[LinasK]

Yes, but did Zimmerman know that? If not, what difference does it make?

So, instead of sneaking in.... get invited as a guest to a private gated community. Then, go for a walk. Leave the community, maybe going to a convenience store to get some candy. Then return to the gated community, making sure your hoodie is on before you re-enter, making sure you walk around slowly, "checking stuff out", and see what happens. Then, when you get followed by a security guard or security watch person, try to lose him. Then, after you lose him, sneak up behind him, confront him for following you and harassing you, hit him in the face with such force that his nose breaks and he's knocked to the ground, jump on him, and start bashing his head on the sidewalk.

Another way to go is to thank the security person for his diligence, and politely and respectfully explain why you're there.

Do you think one of these approaches might be more likely to get you shot?

I had an aunt who lived in a gated community, and I have visited others. Again, the security guard is not going to get out of his shack and follow you. Lots of times, the old guys they hire are not even armed!
There is no proof that TM broke GZ's nose nor jumped him, nor bashed his head on the sidewalk. That is only the word of GZ, whom I believe to be a liar trying to cover his butt!!!

 

[Nova]

Based partly on how much time elapsed between the call and the shooting leads me to believe that TM had no intention of just going home to safety. Also partly by knowing what its like to be a 17 year old male and a stage many males go through where they question authority and try to push limits.

TM was chatting with his gf. He had a reason to dawdle once he thought he was out of sight of the strange man who was watching him. I don't know with whom you ran at that age, but I certainly didn't know anyone who would physically attack an adult stranger at my stepmother's condo. What would that accomplish except to add jail time to TM's school suspension? There's nothing in TM's history to suggest he would have "jumped" GZ.

Why was GZ still there instead of back at his truck?

 

[IzzyBlanche]

Based partly on how much time elapsed between the call and the shooting leads me to believe that TM had no intention of just going home to safety. Also partly by knowing what its like to be a 17 year old male and a stage many males go through where they question authority and try to push limits.

But no one, absolutely NO ONE has come forward to state that Trayvon has any history whatsoever of doing this in a violent way.

Don't you think given the volatility of the case, someone with direct knowledge of this kind of behavior would have?

 

[Emeralgem]

Nothing, of course. I was talking about likelihoods/probability.

While it's possible that you're being followed by a nutjob, it's more likely to be what I said - someone just suspicious of someone who is unfamiliar.

Besides, even if it is a nutjob, that doesn't justify breaking his nose and beating him.

There is absolutely no proof Trayvon broke GZ's nose or beat him..JMHO

 

[Adrienne37]

And don't forget, in the Lawrence O'Donnell interview GZ's friend Joe Oliver brought up GZ's drinking three times IIRC without being prompted any of those times.

:waitasec:

Yes indeed, I had forgotten all about that. Thanks for the reminder. I needed some entertainment for the night so I'll have to watch that again!!! :floorlaugh:


~jmo~

 

[impatientredhead]

IANAL, but I believe the judge in that case ruled that the shooter (the father on the bicycle) had a legal right to follow his speeding neighbor down the block to the speeder's house.

Apparently, the judge ruled that the confrontation didn't start until sometime during the conversation that ensued and that the speeder was the "First Aggressor" (see Hornsby) at that time. Therefore, the shooter had a right to use deadly force because at that time he feared for his life.

It probably didn't help that the speeder was drunk and the first to use physical force.

It was actually the passenger and not the speeder, but essentially the same scenario, gun toting self appointed law enforcement ended up on the bottom of the confrontation he sought out on his own and killed the man he initiated a fight with and walked away with criminal and civil immunity.

 

[PaperDoll]

Thing is, gated communities pay their security guards, and they stay at their posts at the guard station. If this was the case, Trayvon would have been questioned by the guard when he re-entered the complex, and they would have called the condo where he was stayed to verify him...
George was NOT security for the complex, nor was he supposed to follow, he was an unpaid volunteer for Neighborhood Watch. All he was supposed to do was call his suspicion in to LE.

I agree, also, IMO, it was none of GZ business why TM was in the complex, he had no right to even ask why he was there. If someone was following me and asked me why I was in the complex, I'd say it was none of their business, but that just might start a fight :behindbar

 

[highflyer]

And don't forget, in the Lawrence O'Donnell interview GZ's friend Joe Oliver brought up GZ's drinking three times IIRC without being prompted any of those times.

:waitasec:

Must admit that there were times listening to GZ's "friends" and family on news shows that were quite uncomfortable. "With friends like these......"hoh:

 

[Nova]

It was actually the passenger and not the speeder, but essentially the same scenario, gun toting self appointed law enforcement ended up on the bottom of the confrontation he sought out on his own and killed the man he initiated a fight with and walked away with criminal and civil immunity.

Thanks for the correction and thank you for your research into past SYG cases. I really appreciate it.

 

[LinasK]

Nothing, of course. I was talking about likelihoods/probability.

While it's possible that you're being followed by a nutjob, it's more likely to be what I said - someone just suspicious of someone who is unfamiliar.

Besides, even if it is a nutjob, that doesn't justify breaking his nose and beating him.

Nor is nutjob justified in shooting someone he deemed suspicious, especially with no good reason to do so!

 

[Sensei]

Must admit that there were times listening to GZ's "friends" and family on news shows that were quite uncomfortable. "With friends like these......"hoh:

Truly with friends like FT and Oliver GZ does not need enemies, having FT as your spokes person is enough to create ill will and discord throughout the country with no extra help needed. IMO JMHO and stuff.

 

[grandmaj]

We need an approved link to discuss the calls that George made.

 

[Nova]

I agree, also, IMO, it was none of GZ business why TM was in the complex, he had no right to even ask why he was there. If someone was following me and asked me why I was in the complex, I'd say it was none of their business, but that just might start a fight :behindbar

Just make sure you let the other person swing first.

Actually, the question under SYG (as I understand it--IANAL) is not whether GZ was right to follow and ask, but whether it was illegal to do so. It wasn't, so in theory, GZ doesn't lose his SYG rights for asking the question.

Now IMO either the SA is going to argue that GZ's pursuit with an intent to detain was illegal (hard to prove) or she is going to rely on the gf's testimony to argue that GZ pushed TM first. Just my speculation at this point...

 

[HiHater]

Based partly on how much time elapsed between the call and the shooting leads me to believe that TM had no intention of just going home to safety. Also partly by knowing what its like to be a 17 year old male and a stage many males go through where they question authority and try to push limits.

The only problem is that GZ had NO authority. There was no limit to push, GZ can't set boundaries for anyone but himself. Other than that, he's a regular guy, just like Trayvon was a regular guy...

JMO MOO

 

[IzzyBlanche]

Questions for the legal types.

1. What are the arguments for and against unsealing the records, and who benefits/loses out either way?

2. Can GZ be charged with perjury since he told TM's parents in his apology that he didn't know how old TM was, that he thought TM was just a little younger than himself, but on the PD call he clearly states that TM is in his late teens?

Thanks.

 

[impatientredhead]

All due respect to Mr. Hornsby, but 2 of the lawmakers that crafted the SYG said that GZ does not fall under this defense.

http://www.nbcmiami.com/news/local/...pply-To-Trayvon-Martin-Shooter-143684626.html

Rep. Dennis Baxley said it on Anderson Cooper too, but I'm still looking for that video.

The people who wrote (sponsored, it was written by the gun right lobbying groups) but I will go with the people who wrote say it wasn't intended for these cases but the defense attorneys that have used it successfully and the prosecutors that have lost to say they are wrong. The way it is written that is exactly how it has been used and now those case have set preceding standards for current cases.

http://www.tampabay.com/news/publicsafety/article1222930.ece
The men responsible for Florida's controversial "stand your ground'' law are certain about one thing: Because of his actions before he pulled the trigger and killed 17-year-old Trayvon Martin, George Zimmerman is not protected from criminal prosecution.

Because Zimmerman exited his vehicle, because he followed Martin, because his actions put him in a situation where he felt it necessary to shoot a boy dead, he should be booked, jailed and forced to face a jury of his peers.

Said Durell Peaden, the former Republican senator from Crestview who sponsored the bill: "The guy lost his defense right then. When he said, 'I'm following him,' he lost his defense."

Said Jeb Bush, the governor who signed the bill into law: "Stand your ground means stand your ground. It doesn't mean chase after somebody who's turned their back."

But they are wrong.

Since its passage in 2005, the "stand your ground'' law has protected people who have pursued another, initiated a confrontation and then used deadly force to defend themselves. Citing the law, judges have granted immunity to killers who put themselves in danger, so long as their pursuit was not criminal, so long as the person using force had a right to be there, and so long as he could convince the judge he was in fear of great danger or death.

snipped

Lawyers say the bill's supporters are either uninformed or politically motivated.

"That's not what the law says," said Steven Romine, a Tampa Bay lawyer who has invoked "stand your ground" successfully. "They might think that in their own heads, but it's just not true.
snipped

Prosecutors, who are generally critical of the law, agree.

 

[HiHater]

I apologize in advance if this has been asked and answered already, but is it common practice for a police officer to whip out their phone and snap pictures of suspect's and victim's injuries? It just seems odd that so soon upon arrival, this officer is documenting GZ's bloody head on his phone. Did he also take pics of TM? Did he know GZ prior to this incident? I just find it odd and out of the ordinary. JMO

The only way I can see the picture being sort of okay, is if it was taken on an agency issued cell phone.