18 y/o Black male shot dead by Police in St Louis suburb of Berkeley MO

[CoolJ]

Nope. Do you have any idea how difficult it is to beat even a DUI arrest? Unless you have pretty deep pockets to hire an attorney to contest the breathalyzer, it can't be done. That's because the Judge knows the probability of guilt is overwhelming.

Cops are allowed to rely on their judgment. Which is why I give them my utmost respect and have taught my children to do the same. If cops do something "wrong", such as use of excessive force, it better be captured on video.

This case involves a justified shooting just as Michael Brown's was justified.

Maybe it is a Canadian thing but a DUI is a relatively easy charge to beat.

The rest of your post I am not going to comment on. We are getting waaaay off topic now and everyone seems to be putting words in my mouth.

 

[Curious Guy]

I hear ya. I'm gonna drop it because I don't think some like to discuss the issues. What makes it a tough thing to talk about is the fact that 99% of all cops' actions are admirable but unfortunately, to work towards fixing any problems that may or may not exist, it requires talking about the 1%, which leaves some with the impression that LE as a whole is being bashed. Soooooo, I will drop it and I will watch the body count increase on both sides because those discussions cannot be had on a national level much less here on WS(not addressed to you Archangel but to others).

And therein lies the rub. Despite the fact that this case had zero to do with LEO abuse of power , it somehow is subtly snuck into the conversation. I don't think there is a poster here that believes LEO are all pure and innocent. IMO it can and should be discussed when it occurs.

Having said that it sure seems to me there are some that look at LEO as guilty until proven innocent especially in cross racial incidents.

 

[MyBelle]

The only right is to remain silent??? Hmm.. You obviously have not been reading any of my posts.

Put it this way then. When interacting with a police officer what basic rights do you lose? Are you saying you lose all of the except the right to remain silent?

You keep talking about "rights" but you aren't listing those "rights." A citizen does not lose any basic rights when interacting with cops. If you don't want to cooperate you can be arrested. That's a choice a citizen makes.

 

[sonjay]

I hear ya. I'm gonna drop it because I don't think some like to discuss the issues. What makes it a tough thing to talk about is the fact that 99% of all cops' actions are admirable but unfortunately, to work towards fixing any problems that may or may not exist, it requires talking about the 1%, which leaves some with the impression that LE as a whole is being bashed.

You are correct that some don't like to discuss the issues. This case is about a who attempted to shoot a cop. IMO, there's a culture of thuggishness that fosters the attitude that it's okay to attack and shoot cops. But people would rather talk about anything and everything except that -- dashcams and body cams, Terry stops, rogue cops, wrongful home invasions, dog shootings, and on and on and on and on. As long as it's not about criminals trying to kill cops, it's on the table.

IMO, it's time to have a national conversation about the responsibilities of living in a civilized society. Those responsibilities include respect for the law, and not attacking or shooting cops. But few people want to talk about that.

 

[Curious Guy]

Where are you folks seeing a culture or attitude that it is ok to kill cops?

Is rap music available in Canada? Have you read about the numerous threats on LEO lives being made on Twitter and Facebook?

 

[reedus23]

Second night of protests after Antonio Martin shooting
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/12/25/protesters-berkeley-shooting/20889139/

Crowd Protesting Antonio Martin’s Death Shuts Down Missouri Highway
http://time.com/3647114/antonio-martin-death-protest-shuts-down-missouri-highway/

Another police-involved shooting death of black teen sparks tensions in St. Louis
http://www.washingtonpost.com/natio...0f3de4-8b76-11e4-8ff4-fb93129c9c8b_story.html

Antonio Martin, Black Teenager, Fatally Shot By Police 2 Miles From Ferguson
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/12/24/antonio-martin-police-shooting_n_6376210.html

Berkeley suspect's grandmother: 'I want to see the gun in his hand'
http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-berkeley-grandmother-20141224-story.html

While headlines like these don't actually claim that AM was justified in trying to shoot the cop, they certainly suggest that the cop wasn't justified in shooting AM. If a person knew nothing about the AM case except for these headlines..... there's not much question what they'd think.

And then we have all the people who seem to think that the AM case is somehow symptomatic of Terry stop abuse, or LE not not being sufficiently trained in "de-escalating" situations, or proof that LE is so racist that people like AM are justified in their distrust of police. And the people who suggest, either implicitly or explicitly, that the cop's dashcam and bodycam not being operational is some sort of evidence that it was a bad shoot.

This case is symptomatic of a criminal culture that fosters the attitude that it's okay to shoot cops. And that's a major and serious problem that must be dealt with, IMO. Not least of which is that it's likely to result in even more shootings by police, who are justifiably concerned about people like AM shooting at them.

It's amazing that I live here and had no idea that was going on. Heck, I couldn't even tell you if they are still protesting Michael Brown locally.

I agree with you that there is a MASSIVE problem right now. And that MASSIVE problem is just going to get worse. Cops will understandably be more itchy with the trigger finger. That will increase their use of deadly force. Their increased use will result in an increased number of both justified and unjustified shootings. This will be met with even more arms being taken up against cops. It's going to get even uglier than it is now.

So how to stop it??? What I can tell ya, it's not by more shooting. Of criminals or cops.

 

[CoolJ]

You keep talking about "rights" but you aren't listing those "rights." A citizen does not lose any basic rights when interacting with cops. If you don't want to cooperate you can be arrested. That's a choice a citizen makes.

I don't think you have any idea of what I am talking about here. So we will just have to leave it at that.

 

[Archangel7]

I hear ya. I'm gonna drop it because I don't think some like to discuss the issues. What makes it a tough thing to talk about is the fact that 99% of all cops' actions are admirable but unfortunately, to work towards fixing any problems that may or may not exist, it requires talking about the 1%, which leaves some with the impression that LE as a whole is being bashed. Soooooo, I will drop it and I will watch the body count increase on both sides because those discussions cannot be had on a national level much less here on WS(not addressed to you Archangel but to others).

Just a footnote....I have always thinned the herd as necessary and most I have worked with do the same. I will leave it at that.

 

[MyBelle]

So cops break down your door on accident when it should have been the neighbors door. They throw in some flash grenades, shoot your dog and bust down your bedroom door where you and your significant other are. Mind you, you don't even know who it is that just broke down your door. You and your significant other should just lie there and hope that whoever it is that just broke into your bedroom doesn't shoot you and your significant other?

We had a poster earlier relate a story of an officer that had pulled her over and she had painfully told us of what that officer demanded of her. The right thing in such a situation is to simply allow the officer to have his/her way with you? No right to defend yourself from such behavior?

When cops serve a no-knock search warrant they do announce they are cops. And they wear identifying garb that they are cops. If that happens to you and you decide to point a weapon at the cops, that's your choice. I think it would be a very dumb idea to do so but that's just my humble opinion.

 

[Archangel7]

The video seems to indicate AM was trying to avoid the cop and walk away until the cop lit him up with the flashlight and likely said come back over here. Looks like during questioning he realized he was going to be found armed and already with a criminal past. then he made a bad choice that cost him his life.

 

[reedus23]

And therein lies the rub. Despite the fact that this case had zero to do with LEO abuse of power , it somehow is subtly snuck into the conversation. I don't think there is a poster here that believes LEO are all pure and innocent. IMO it can and should be discussed when it occurs.

Having said that it sure seems to me there are some that look at LEO as guilty until proven innocent especially in cross racial incidents.

I hear ya. And by no means is this the case. I didn't even know there was a discussion about this case. From what I read/saw, this was nothing but a justified shooting. So I suppose this is not the place to have the conversation, but until that conversation is had(that includes the citizenship's shortcomings as well), this stuff is going to get worse.

 

[sonjay]

It's amazing that I live here and had no idea that was going on. Heck, I couldn't even tell you if they are still protesting Michael Brown locally.

I agree with you that there is a MASSIVE problem right now. And that MASSIVE problem is just going to get worse. Cops will understandably be more itchy with the trigger finger. That will increase their use of deadly force. Their increased use will result in an increased number of both justified and unjustified shootings. This will be met with even more arms being taken up against cops. It's going to get even uglier than it is now.

So how to stop it??? What I can tell ya, it's not by more shooting. Of criminals or cops.

Were you aware of the two cops who got shot in NYC just before Christmas? Reportedly by a guy who posted on social media that it was in revenge for Brown and Garner.

What can I tell ya, when a attacks a cop, or tries to shoot a cop, the cop isn't the one who initiated it, but the cop sure has the right to be the one who ends it. When a culture glorifies the idea of shooting cops, cops will have to be ready to be very fast on the trigger in case they're attacked. You're correct that all these attacks on cops are going to result in more shootings. The best way to stop that is for people to stop attacking cops. Or there will necessarily have to be more shootings.

 

[reedus23]

You are correct that some don't like to discuss the issues. This case is about a who attempted to shoot a cop. IMO, there's a culture of thuggishness that fosters the attitude that it's okay to attack and shoot cops. But people would rather talk about anything and everything except that -- dashcams and body cams, Terry stops, rogue cops, wrongful home invasions, dog shootings, and on and on and on and on. As long as it's not about criminals trying to kill cops, it's on the table.

IMO, it's time to have a national conversation about the responsibilities of living in a civilized society. Those responsibilities include respect for the law, and not attacking or shooting cops. But few people want to talk about that.

I agree with you. And those that try to eliminate any of those from the conversation are just making matters worse. The conversation has to include the culture that is developing. It has to include abuse of authority and how to fix that. It has to do with knowing one's constitutional rights not just so that you can stump the cops, so that you know what you are obligated to do when confronted by police officers.

So I am so on board with you about a national conversation about the responsibilities of living in a civilized society. Let's just not limit it in any way as to what will be discussed when it comes to those responsibilities.

 

[ontheclock]

If this case has zero to do with Leo abuse of power, are we obligated to discuss it? Does the case have any relevance in the bigger scheme of things?

 

[katydid23]

Where are you folks seeing a culture or attitude that it is ok to kill cops?

I am seeing it all over twitter land, in the realm of the protest leaders. As in 'they got what they deserved. MOre is comin..."

 

[reedus23]

When cops serve a no-knock search warrant they do announce they are cops. And they wear identifying garb that they are cops. If that happens to you and you decide to point a weapon at the cops, that's your choice. I think it would be a very dumb idea to do so but that's just my humble opinion.

And you are sound asleep. And you have bright lights shown in your eyes where maybe just maybe it is hard to discern exactly who that is. Or lord forbid, these particular cops don't even announce, which can happen. Remember too, the entire reason for the way they enter (and correct me if I'm wrong Archangel) is to disorient and essentially not give one time to logically think things through. That is incredibly dangerous work for LE and I admire them when they do it. My question though is what about when it is done wrong? What do you do as a person? You have no idea who that is breaking through your doors. All you know is your being attacked, there's loud bangs, there's shots fired. So I guess the answer is, as you say, I just lay there, not knowing who it is and just pray and hope that it isn't someone intent on killing me.

 

[reedus23]

The video seems to indicate AM was trying to avoid the cop and walk away until the cop lit him up with the flashlight and likely said come back over here. Looks like during questioning he realized he was going to be found armed and already with a criminal past. then he made a bad choice that cost him his life.

Certainly seemed to be what happened to me as well. Which is why I was a bit surprised to find a thread on it.

 

[MyBelle]

I agree with you. And those that try to eliminate any of those from the conversation are just making matters worse. The conversation has to include the culture that is developing. It has to include abuse of authority and how to fix that. It has to do with knowing one's constitutional rights not just so that you can stump the cops, so that you know what you are obligated to do when confronted by police officers.


So I am so on board with you about a national conversation about the responsibilities of living in a civilized society. Let's just not limit it in any way as to what will be discussed when it comes to those responsibilities.

I'm baffled where you are getting the idea there is some kind of cultural "problem" or lack of understanding. When any citizen is confronted by police, you are obligated to do as you are told whether it be get out of the street or hand over your license and registration. Afterward, if you feel you have been mistreated, most police departments have either auditors or citizen review boards where you can file a complaint.

 

[reedus23]

Were you aware of the two cops who got shot in NYC just before Christmas? Reportedly by a guy who posted on social media that it was in revenge for Brown and Garner.

What can I tell ya, when a attacks a cop, or tries to shoot a cop, the cop isn't the one who initiated it, but the cop sure has the right to be the one who ends it. When a culture glorifies the idea of shooting cops, cops will have to be ready to be very fast on the trigger in case they're attacked. You're correct that all these attacks on cops are going to result in more shootings. The best way to stop that is for people to stop attacking cops. Or there will necessarily have to be more shootings.

Yes. I saw that. And I wish ending this were that simple. Unfortunately, I don't think it is.

 

[MyBelle]

And you are sound asleep. And you have bright lights shown in your eyes where maybe just maybe it is hard to discern exactly who that is. Or lord forbid, these particular cops don't even announce, which can happen. Remember too, the entire reason for the way they enter (and correct me if I'm wrong Archangel) is to disorient and essentially not give one time to logically think things through. That is incredibly dangerous work for LE and I admire them when they do it. My question though is what about when it is done wrong? What do you do as a person? You have no idea who that is breaking through your doors. All you know is your being attacked, there's loud bangs, there's shots fired. So I guess the answer is, as you say, I just lay there, not knowing who it is and just pray and hope that it isn't someone intent on killing me.

I think cops serving no knock warrants usually need a good reason to kill someone in the house, such as somebody points a gun at them. Has there been a case where they entered the wrong house and shot innocent, unarmed people?